Kurt's Card Care

[Eric72]

At the time I'm posting this, Kurt is on the Sports Card Live YouTube Channel

[Eric72]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEdUEXvlt-0

[gunboat82]

My takeaway from his comments is that: (1) he uses chemicals; (2) he hasn't researched whether stains or wrinkles will reappear, but he doesn't really think so; (3) screw the haters, because my product is popular.

[Peter_Spaeth]

People like this, and like minded people doing similar things, can always justify themselves. Eff him, my two cents.

[Eric72]

Before tuning in, I didn’t really care for the product or its impact on the hobby. After listening to roughly 30 minutes, my opinion worsened a bit.

I turned it off shortly thereafter. Kurt just didn’t hold my interest.

[brianp-beme]

Kurt's Card Care - sounds like where cards are sent when their parents are off at work trying to afford the high cost of having cards in the first place.


Brian

[Lucas00]

It's a big deal and shouldn't be done ever unless it's plain water being used to remove excess foreign material, or from a scrapbook.

There are cards in slabs that were cleaned with chemicals now showing signs years later of regression (stains coming back, creases popping back up etc. And no pressing out creases never truly removes them) and in my opinion pouring chemicals on paper probably accelerates natural deterioration of the paper. Watch Orlandos video of his card he bought that had no stain originally but now shows the nasty stain that was chemically removed years prior.

Not to mention the clear loss in clarity that occurs. Sure the cards look brighter, but dramatic detail is lost, again showcased perfectly in Orlandos video. I can see it the most around the subjects face it is almost akin to taking a card that is perfectly focused to slightly out of focus.


https://youtu.be/KYCkxXUb9u8

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Lucas00

It's a big deal and shouldn't be done ever unless it's plain water being used to remove excess foreign material, or from a scrapbook.

There are cards in slabs that were cleaned with chemicals now showing signs years later of regression (stains coming back, creases popping back up etc. And no pressing out creases never truly removes them) and in my opinion pouring chemicals on paper probably accelerates natural deterioration of the paper. Watch Orlandos video of his card he bought that had no stain originally but now shows the nasty stain that was chemically removed years prior.

Not to mention the clear loss in clarity that occurs. Sure the cards look brighter, but dramatic detail is lost, again showcased perfectly in Orlandos video. I can see it the most around the subjects face it is almost akin to taking a card that is perfectly focused to slightly out of focus.


https://youtu.be/KYCkxXUb9u8

I like Orlando, but he doesn't know what he's talking about in that video. The stain was always there. You can see it in the before photo. The images he posted for before and after just use drastically different settings for contrast, brightness, exposure, etc.

At one point, he holds the PSA graded copy next to the SGC copy and claims that any color differences they have are due to "chemicals" being used on the card (nevermind the fact that the one he claims was altered actually has *better* color). This is of course nonsense. Then he starts talking about how if the stain was present when PSA graded it then they would have given it a 2 and not a 6. Again, this is nonsense and demonstrates remarkable ignorance of PSA's grading standards. They regularly assign 6s to stained cards even to this day. I could post numerous examples of them.

Most cards that were removed from scrapbooks like this one were simply removed with water. If the glue is water soluble, it will come out easily with just water. No "harsh chemicals" necessary. If the glue is not water soluble, then you would need a solvent that is so harsh that it would destroy the card.

Furthermore, this claim that we don't know the long term effects of soaking cards and that it poses serious risks is also nonsense. People have been soaking cards for more than a century. There is a long established history of the effects of soaking cards. There are millions of soaked cards in slabs. Properly cleaning and soaking cards preserves them. It does not destroy them. There is an entire field dedicated to the preservation and safe restoration techniques of paper artifacts.

[skelly423]

Does anyone else think Kurt is just an outright con artist? He's selling a snake oil potion with a limitless list of magic properties. We'll never hear an honest statement of what's actually in Kurt's Card Care spray, just trust him that it's an elixir to fix the (card) world's problems. Even his devoted followers will admit that a lot of his before and after pictures are nothing more than carefully staged with lighting tricks to hide issues that never really disappear with his treatment. It's akin to magic diet pills where the subject is told to suck in their stomach for the "after" photo.

I suppose as long as he's just conning other con artists it doesn't bother me much, but I'm amazed he has as much of a profile as he does given how much stench there is around his sales tactic (and that's ignoring the ethical discussion about altering, which is a discussion I'm not engaging in again).

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by skelly423

Does anyone else think Kurt is just an outright con artist? He's selling a snake oil potion with a limitless list of magic properties. We'll never hear an honest statement of what's actually in Kurt's Card Care spray, just trust him that it's an elixir to fix the (card) world's problems. Even his devoted followers will admit that a lot of his before and after pictures are nothing more than carefully staged with lighting tricks to hide issues that never really disappear with his treatment. It's akin to magic diet pills where the subject is told to suck in their stomach for the "after" photo.

I suppose as long as he's just conning other con artists it doesn't bother me much, but I'm amazed he has as much of a profile as he does given how much stench there is around his sales tactic (and that's ignoring the ethical discussion about altering, which is a discussion I'm not engaging in again).

I hate the whole card cleaning/doctoring culture. These people always seem shady, deceptive and disingeuous to me.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I hate the whole card cleaning/doctoring culture. These people always seem shady, deceptive and disingeuous to me.

Would you characterize me as "shady, deceptive, and disingenuous" on this topic?

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by skelly423

Does anyone else think Kurt is just an outright con artist? He's selling a snake oil potion with a limitless list of magic properties. We'll never hear an honest statement of what's actually in Kurt's Card Care spray, just trust him that it's an elixir to fix the (card) world's problems. Even his devoted followers will admit that a lot of his before and after pictures are nothing more than carefully staged with lighting tricks to hide issues that never really disappear with his treatment. It's akin to magic diet pills where the subject is told to suck in their stomach for the "after" photo.

I suppose as long as he's just conning other con artists it doesn't bother me much, but I'm amazed he has as much of a profile as he does given how much stench there is around his sales tactic (and that's ignoring the ethical discussion about altering, which is a discussion I'm not engaging in again).

Why would he tell anyone what's in his magic potion though? There are numerous copycat operations already. Telling them what's in his products would be just as stupid as the best BBQ joint in the country posting the recipe for their BBQ sauce on their front door.

The before and after pictures that you're referring to where the lighting differs in an effort to make the creases look better than they actually are were taken by his customers, not him. Kurt pretty much always uses the same lighting in his videos and images. If you look closely, you can almost always still see the creases he worked on in his after photos.

As for me being a "devoted follower", I like Kurt. I think he's a great guy. But I don't use his card spray when I soak my cards (I did buy a bottle for fun though). And I don't use his polish either, as I don't collect shiny stuff. But people clearly like his products and they clearly work as there are approximately one million cards in slabs that have been worked on using his products.

As for him being a con artist? No, that's silly. The guy literally fixes cards live on camera, tells you exactly what he's doing while he's doing it, and then posts the grading results when he's done. He sells a product that works and shows you how to use it. He wouldn't have so many repeat customers if his products didn't work. It's clearly not snake oil. Can you achieve the same results by researching how professional paper restoration experts safely clean documents that are far more important and valuable than our baseball cards? Yes, of course. But most people are too lazy to do the research on their own. Hence he has a large and loyal customer base.

People fear what they don't understand. Paper restoration and preservation is a fascinating subject to study. You can learn a lot just by reading.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Why would he tell anyone what's in his magic potion though? There are numerous copycat operations already. Telling them what's in his products would be just as stupid as the best BBQ joint in the country posting the recipe for their BBQ sauce on their front door.

The before and after pictures that you're referring to where the lighting differs in an effort to make the creases look better than they actually are were taken by his customers, not him. Kurt pretty much always uses the same lighting in his videos and images. If you look closely, you can almost always still see the creases he worked on in his after photos.

As for me being a "devoted follower", I like Kurt. I think he's a great guy. But I don't use his card spray when I soak my cards (I did buy a bottle for fun though). And I don't use his polish either, as I don't collect shiny stuff. But people clearly like his products and they clearly work as there are approximately one million cards in slabs that have been worked on using his products.

As for him being a con artist? No, that's silly. The guy literally fixes cards live on camera, tells you exactly what he's doing while he's doing it, and then posts the grading results when he's done. He sells a product that works and shows you how to use it. He wouldn't have so many repeat customers if his products didn't work. It's clearly not snake oil. Can you achieve the same results by researching how professional paper restoration experts safely clean documents that are far more important and valuable than our baseball cards? Yes, of course. But most people are too lazy to do the research on their own. Hence he has a large and loyal customer base.

People fear what they don't understand. Paper restoration and preservation is a fascinating subject to study. You can learn a lot just by reading.

Straw man argument IMO. For many documents and the like, preservation and restoration are considered acceptable, and are not done for deception. Baseball cards have always been different. If Kurt and others are so above board, let them disclose their work. This all feels like Dick T. all over again.

[skelly423]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Why would he tell anyone what's in his magic potion though? There are numerous copycat operations already. Telling them what's in his products would be just as stupid as the best BBQ joint in the country posting the recipe for their BBQ sauce on their front door.

Is he not sharing because he's afraid it's going to feed the copycat operations, or is he not sharing because he knows it's snake oil and it'll tank his sales? Only Kurt knows for sure. I have my opinion, you have yours, we don't need to agree.

Originally Posted by Snowman

But people clearly like his products and they clearly work as there are approximately one million cards in slabs that have been worked on using his products.

A million cards in slabs have have been worked on using his products!? I'd love to see anything resembling evidence to support this claim because it sure seems like you pulled a number out of thin air.

Originally Posted by Snowman

People fear what they don't understand. Paper restoration and preservation is a fascinating subject to study.

Don't insult my intelligence by pretending I don't understand card restoration. I understand it well, I just don't buy the arguments that it's a good thing for the card collecting hobby. Considering the evidence and disagreeing with your position doesn't make me fearful or unintelligent.

[Lucas00]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I like Orlando, but he doesn't know what he's talking about in that video. The stain was always there. You can see it in the before photo. The images he posted for before and after just use drastically different settings for contrast, brightness, exposure, etc.

At one point, he holds the PSA graded copy next to the SGC copy and claims that any color differences they have are due to "chemicals" being used on the card (nevermind the fact that the one he claims was altered actually has *better* color). This is of course nonsense. Then he starts talking about how if the stain was present when PSA graded it then they would have given it a 2 and not a 6. Again, this is nonsense and demonstrates remarkable ignorance of PSA's grading standards. They regularly assign 6s to stained cards even to this day. I could post numerous examples of them.

Most cards that were removed from scrapbooks like this one were simply removed with water. If the glue is water soluble, it will come out easily with just water. No "harsh chemicals" necessary. If the glue is not water soluble, then you would need a solvent that is so harsh that it would destroy the card.

Furthermore, this claim that we don't know the long term effects of soaking cards and that it poses serious risks is also nonsense. People have been soaking cards for more than a century. There is a long established history of the effects of soaking cards. There are millions of soaked cards in slabs. Properly cleaning and soaking cards preserves them. It does not destroy them. There is an entire field dedicated to the preservation and safe restoration techniques of paper artifacts.

There are no before and after pictures shown in the video. He bought it with no stain visible And the stain came back after several years. We don't know the long term effects of soaking cards with chemicals. Of course I know plain water has always and always will be fine for cards.

I know you can chemically preserve paper properly.
Kurt's card care isn't the Library of Congress, Does he know what he's doing with his formula? You decide. I would also add preservation of paper chemically is almost always manuscripts and other extremely thin documents. Not colored card stock. I don't think the hall of fame museum is taking in 1880s scrapbook cards and soaking them in kcc.

Clearly he has them side by side, one soaked with water and one soaked with chemicals and they are extremely different looking. And the water soaked looks exactly the same as the card that never touched water.

I'm talking with someone who openly does this to cards. So I wouldn't expect you to take my side.
Shame that Gherig wasn't an easy Kcc job and just had a little stain that you could've soaked chemically and turned into a 3 and resold it for $2000 more without saying anything.
Edit: seeing you said you'd never sell it on the other thread. We all know every collection goes to the grave! Lol.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Lucas00

There are no before and after pictures shown in the video. He bought it with no stain visible And the stain came back after several years. We don't know the long term effects of soaking cards with chemicals. Of course I know plain water has always and always will be fine for cards.

I know you can chemically preserve paper properly.
Kurt's card care isn't the Library of Congress, Does he know what he's doing with his formula? You decide. I would also add preservation of paper chemically is almost always manuscripts and other extremely thin documents. Not colored card stock. I don't think the hall of fame museum is taking in 1880s scrapbook cards and soaking them in kcc.

Clearly he has them side by side, one soaked with water and one soaked with chemicals and they are extremely different looking. And the water soaked looks exactly the same as the card that never touched water.

I'm talking with someone who openly does this to cards. So I wouldn't expect you to take my side.
Shame that Gherig wasn't an easy Kcc job and just had a little stain that you could've soaked chemically and turned into a 3 and resold it for $2000 more without saying anything.
Edit: seeing you said you'd never sell it on the other thread. We all know every collection goes to the grave! Lol.

I think the before pictures were posted by a few of the hobby trolls online, which I was conflating with his video. But either way, the stain was always there. He provides no evidence to support his claim that the stain appeared out of no where and that it wasn't there before. I don't think he's trying to deceive his audience. I just think he's wrong about the stain not having been there before. I think he didn't notice the stain when he bought it (it's faint) and then he one day later discovered it and assumed it had to have magically appeared because, using his reasoning, "PSA would have given it a 2 if the stain was there when they graded it". Yet, unbeknownst to him, PSA actually places stained cards in 6 holders with regularity.

[Lucas00]

Thing is, you don't know what you are doing, for chemically cleaning something historic you would need decades of research, testing and professional chemists aiding you. You'll just be kurt pt 2.

Imagine like I said earlier (you ignored about 90% of my response) if the hof museum got a card with a caramel stain they wanted to preserve, I'll tell you what they aren't doing, putting Kcc on it.

Also you keep referencing cleaned cards as "My cards" implying you have never sold one you've cleaned. Another point you you've dodged numerous times. I'm probably the pope if that's the truth. Ask your friend Jonah how that went.

[4815162342]

Hopefully, this is the beginning of the end of this madness.

[G1911]

But I was told PSA is fine with Kurt’s and doesn’t care and that’s part of why it’s not altering!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

But I was told PSA is fine with Kurt’s and doesn’t care and that’s part of why it’s not altering!

Like Bogart, you were misinformed.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Like Bogart, you were misinformed.

I'm shocked, shocked to find that lying and fraud is going on in here!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Spoken like a true BS artist. I think they just did call you.

Colone said he's surprised PSA officials haven't called him to talk.

"I come in peace and I'm really open minded," Colone said. "Let's exchange practices and data with each other."

[Neal]

Kurt used to cover the cert number in the videos. Did he get too brazen, or was it laziness?

The best card cleaners don't youtube that kinda thing in the first place...

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[Lorewalker]

I am sure PSA has banned him from submitting and there is a good chance they might have deactivated more of his submissions. I am not a fan of deactivating submissions or cards unless PSA is in possession of those cards who certs they are deactivating.

Most people do not check cert numbers on PSA's site prior to buying a PSA graded card so they have no idea they are buying something that PSA no longer recognizes as a legit card but they have put out legit money. The burden is then on the buyer to track down the person they bought it from to get a refund. GL with that.

And let's not think PSA deactivated those certs to keep the market clean and protect buyers. And if they did ban Kurt that too was not done to protect buyers. They do these things to anyone who embarrasses them.

[Neal]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

I am sure PSA has banned him from submitting and there is a good chance they might have deactivated more of his submissions. I am not a fan of deactivating submissions or cards unless PSA is in possession of those cards who certs they are deactivating.



Most people do not check cert numbers on PSA's site prior to buying a PSA graded card so they have no idea they are buying something that PSA no longer recognizes as a legit card but they have put out legit money. The burden is then on the buyer to track down the person they bought it from to get a refund. GL with that.



And let's not think PSA deactivated those certs to keep the market clean and protect buyers. And if they did ban Kurt that too was not done to protect buyers. They do these things to anyone who embarrasses them.

Agreed.

Did they decertify the Wemby 1/1? That thing is forever tainted, at least for the next few days ... after that, stuff is usually forgotten

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[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Neal

Agreed.

Did they decertify the Wemby 1/1? That thing is forever tainted, at least for the next few days ... after that, stuff is usually forgotten

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Neal I do not know the whole story on the Wemby 1/1 but it is still active. https://www.psacard.com/cert/88489182

I heard someone (the submitter or someone with the submitter) in the lobby at PSA after they handed him/them the card back, did a shout out to Kurt's Card Care. If that is the basis for people saying it should be deactivated, that is weak, imo.

Again, PSA and all TPG, need to catch stuff. If they cannot catch stuff then, put a W in the card doctor's column. Maybe there is nothing to detect...at the time of grading.

[SyrNy1960]

In the 70's, when collecting was so much simpler, we did have a guy who was known for pressing out wrinkles on cards, and he sold them at our local card shows. If someone was interested in a card that he pressed the wrinkles out, he always made buyers aware (we actually all knew him as the winkle guy), and he never charged more money than what the card would have been worth with wrinkles.

I didn't really think much of that being a bad thing back then. I'm sure more things were being done to cards back then, but never really thought much of it.

Today, this is crazy what's being done. So many cards being soaked, trimmed, re-colored, pressed out, etc., so I can see why the true card collectors are angry over it. Sad.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

I am sure PSA has banned him from submitting and there is a good chance they might have deactivated more of his submissions. I am not a fan of deactivating submissions or cards unless PSA is in possession of those cards who certs they are deactivating.

Most people do not check cert numbers on PSA's site prior to buying a PSA graded card so they have no idea they are buying something that PSA no longer recognizes as a legit card but they have put out legit money. The burden is then on the buyer to track down the person they bought it from to get a refund. GL with that.

And let's not think PSA deactivated those certs to keep the market clean and protect buyers. And if they did ban Kurt that too was not done to protect buyers. They do these things to anyone who embarrasses them.

This certainly appears to have already been an embarrassing situation for PSA. It could potentially get far worse, too. Imagine if a significant number (hundreds, thousands, maybe more) of PSA graded cards begin to present signs of exposure to chemicals.

I can imagine something similar to the "greening" issue with '90s Finest/Chrome cards.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Eric72

This certainly appears to have already been an embarrassing situation for PSA. It could potentially get far worse, too. Imagine if a significant number (hundreds, thousands, maybe more) of PSA graded cards begin to present signs of exposure to chemicals.

I can imagine something similar to the "greening" issue with '90s Finest/Chrome cards.

As sad as it is PSA is immune to consequences of any type, it seems. The 3 or 4 year period on Blowout with all those threads on altered cards that I could not keep up with after a short time was the height of damning. There had to be tens of millions of dollars in cards that were shown to be altered. Best thing ever for business for them. And the card doctors were more inspired afterwards to boot. Add to that the FBI shelving the investigation and look we we are now.

IMO, Kurt and his magic spray is a nothing burger for PSA and if cards start decomposing in the holders or whatever, we can send them in for review and I will bet the graders will stand behind the grades.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Eric72

This certainly appears to have already been an embarrassing situation for PSA. It could potentially get far worse, too. Imagine if a significant number (hundreds, thousands, maybe more) of PSA graded cards begin to present signs of exposure to chemicals.

I can imagine something similar to the "greening" issue with '90s Finest/Chrome cards.

The part highlighted in bold would not surprise me one bit if and when it happens. Just a matter of the passage of time. But as stated earlier, no matter how severe the eventual degradation, PSA will steadfastly stand by the grade.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

One can only imagine that if that does happen, the same reason will be given as what is said for newer baseballs with graded gem mint 10 signatures whose autographs fade over the years. "It looked different when we saw it.". Exactly the same. Easy does it. Two completely different situations, both "rationalized" using the same excuse.

[4815162342]

“EXPLOSIVE INTERVIEW: PSA President Ryan Hoge on Card Cleaning, New Slabs, AI Grading & More!”

Skip ahead to 38:38 for the card cleaning question:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bfuICkhi4s

[Leon]

I think most on this forum agree with Ryan's take on cleaning cards, me included.

Originally Posted by 4815162342

“EXPLOSIVE INTERVIEW: PSA President Ryan Hoge on Card Cleaning, New Slabs, AI Grading & More!”

Skip ahead to 38:38 for the card cleaning question:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bfuICkhi4s

[Peter_Spaeth]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9badYsGaCU0

[aconte]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9badYsGaCU0

Great video and spot on!

[Leon]

Originally Posted by aconte

Great video and spot on!

+2. Very spot on.
.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9badYsGaCU0

Good video. Thanks for sharing.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Leon

I think most on this forum agree with Ryan's take on cleaning cards, me included.

Yes, most of the good stuff is late in the interview.

31:30 Hoge discusses providing grader notes

38:40 Card cleaning

42:30 SGC acquisition

I have never seen the man before, but he seems approachable and fairly transparent throughout the interview.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Leon

I think most on this forum agree with Ryan's take on cleaning cards, me included.

Yes, most of the good stuff is late in the interview.

31:30 Hoge discusses providing grader notes

38:40 Card cleaning

42:30 SGC acquisition

I have never seen the man before, but he seems approachable and transparent throughout the interview.

[Neal]

He should have never shown that cert!

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