Unopened Sweet Caporal pack

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Posted By: Scott (runscott)

These "unopened" packs seem to sucker in a lot of bidders. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I am guessing that most of these packs that show up on ebay come from one of two large groups that were broken up in the past: the infamous "cardboard beetle bored" packs (great story - does anyone remember the seller's name?), or the box of packs that were sold individually by an honest seller who checked one pack and then sold the others as "not having t206 cards inside".

Many of these seem to have found there way into the hands of slightly dishonest sellers, although you can't argue with her statment that this "may or may not contain a t206 baseball card".

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1837787454

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hey Scott
Your on the right track. I have pictures of a full carton of 1922 Sweet Caporal packs which have been making the rounds on Ebay for well over a year, most are listed as t206 packs. There was also a partial carton found of 1909-1910 tax stamp Sweet Caporal packs found in Baltimore a few years ago that also occasionally show up for auction. The problem is that these packs were produced in a Maryland factory, which didn't insert cards in packs. The biggest problem with packs dated with the August 5, 1909 tax stamp is that the stamp was used until 1917 so dating the pack is next to impossible. Only on rare occasions have I seen a factory production date on these packs.

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Posted By: Brueso

...to tell if a pack had been opened? When did they start putting plastic wrap around packs? So, is the idea that someone opened the pack, took the card and affixed a new seal to the packs?

I've often also wondered if the 1950s Red Man cards were in the pouch of tobacco you would buy, or did you have to mail in for them? If they were in a pouch, you would expect staining, but I don't see stains in the ones I own or that I see for sale.

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

They did use rice paper before plastic around packs, but the tax stamp is usually inside the paper so it's not always easy to tell if a seal has been broken. The factories occasionally affixed a date of production stamp over the outside rice paper, but you don't see them often. later brian

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Posted By: David

I owned a carton of the circa 1922 packs and sold them all off individually. With the glassine paper wrap on, it was virtually impossible to read the factory date, because it was printed very small and in red ink. I've never seen a 1909 pack with the glassine paper wrap. The glassine paper was very delicate and brittle and I think it would be almost impossible to wrap the paper and put it back on without making it look like crap. I also had a few 1909 packs from a variety of brands. From the outside they looked essentially the same as the 1922, but inside they were slide boxes (like match boxes), while the 1922 packs had flaps that fold inside on each end like a Milk Duds box.

The funny thing with the 1922 box at lest, is that the tax stamp covered one side of the box, but you could simply open up the box from the other side, leaving the stamp in tact. I'm don't remember but this same deal may apply with the 1909 boxes (meaning, watch out)As the 1922 packs do not contain any cards, it's a moot issue though.

Most of the 1922 unopened packs sold for around $30-60 a piece, so when you see a 'T206 pack' for by someone you don't know, bid on it in that range. Already opened boxes from the 1909 era, including Sweet Caporal, Piedmond and Hustler (Yes, I had a Hustler pack), will often sell for that range or more.

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Posted By: Eric

Brian is correct. The 1909 tax stamp was used several years after 1909 so it would be difficult to tell the date of manufacture unless there is an overprinted date.

I have an empty Mecca cigarette pack and an empty Hassan cigarette pack and both have the 1909 tax stamp. However, these packs have overprinted dates of 1911 on them. My Hassan cigarettes pack has the following information overprinted on the 1909 tax stamp:
The A.T.C. Co.
Factory No. 649
First Dist., N.Y.
Dec. 18, 1911

I always look for this overprinted date and unless it's there, I don't bid very high. I had an empty Mecca cigarettes pack with a overprinted date of July 1911 and sold it for about $75.00

I also have a full pack of Zira cigarettes with a 1909 tax stamp and an overprinted date of July 1917. The cigarettes are still inside and so is the coupon for free gifts. Folks must have gone to an early grave smoking these unfiltered cancer sticks!!!

Eric

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Posted By: john(z28jd)

hustler packs are very rare and if you see any hustler brand tobacco cards pay alot for them!

added by z28jd june 25,2002 7:40pm est
DISCLAIMER:The above statement may just be a marketing ploy to make more money for the seller and is in no way researched by the person writing it

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Posted By: warshawlaw

The beetle story was in VCBC's classic anal probe of Alan Hager's sleazy practices. See VCBC #9, page 68-69.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

yeah, Purdy bought some packs from Hagar (or possibly was just looking at them on Hagar's table), and noticed that all the packs had tiny holes in them, in the same place on each pack. Hagar explained this by saying tobacco beetles did it. Not sure what the point of mentioning it was...through a tiny hole, no card ever came out or in...or was seen. Maybe the point was just that all the packs had been tampered with.

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Posted By: Keith O'Leary

These cartons came from a store here in my home town of Mount Joy. I was actually the person that went up into the attic and found these cartons laying on a shelf. If anybody has seen my About Me page on ebay, the first peanut roaster I bought (the Boss on Wheels) also was purchased at the liquidation of this mom and pop store a couple of weeks before I found the cartons. I was in the attic looking for peanut roaster parts when I spotted them. I had a flashlight with me and could read the date on them that night (very disappointing, as you can imagine my heart was racing like a Kentucky Derby thoroughbred). I purchased 1 unopened Sweet Caporal carton and 3/4 of a carton of Reyno Cigarettes from the same era manufactured by R J Reynolds and several loose packs of sweet Caporals at the auction that Saturday. Another member of this board bought one, and possibly one other member. If memory serves me right, there were 4 full Sweet Caporal "Ask Dad" cartons, 1 or 2 partials, a 3/4 full Reyno 2 piece carton, and maybe 40 or so loose packs that were found in a box of junk along with other unopened misc tobacco. The store had opened in the late 1880s and I had frequented it as a child to purchase baseball cards and penny candy. I think 3 of the 4 cartons had a red rubber stamped date of month and the year 1922. All 4 Sweet Caporal cartons were the same. The tax stamp was hard to read underneath the rice paper, but I opened 1 only to find stale tobacco, but no dead beetles. Keith

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Posted By: David

I suspect that Hagar's explanation was correct.

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Posted By: scott

I purchased one of the cartons from that original find ( Keith found ) at auction. The only cards that were possible to find in those packs were " Ask Dad He Knows"
I sold the carton for $3400 about a week after I bought it - On ebay!!!!
Nice go with item but that's about all. No baseball cards****************
Please know all the facts before buying. right Leon

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Posted By: leon

The more info we have the more we can use to make a good buying decision. I probably jumped into the pack collecting a little hastily. Overall, I am very happy with my quaint little collection and have no regrets.....and a few scarce packs.......in thanks to Mr.Ginter in a big way......regards all

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Posted By: Bob Lemke

I have owned a few Red Man unopened packs in the past. The tobacco was in a box and the card was outside the box. The whole was enclosed in a rather transparent waxy paper wrapping. You could easily see the card in the package. These are a very attractive display item.

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Posted By: scott (runscott)

- spots on the package where peeking in with a flashlight would supposedly let the "observor" know if a t206 card was inside. Also raising suspicion was the allegation that the holes were in about the same spot on all packages (I guess beetles aren't usually as predictable as humans as to how they get into cig packs).

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Posted By: warshawlaw

if I got unopened packs of anything with a potential for having good cards, I'd rip 'em all to see what's inside. What the heck, you only live once. Yeah, I know that the riverboat gamblers out there might pay for them unopened, but, like Richard Roundtree in the opening of Dirty Harry, "I gots to know." Now, if the packs are of items that are unlikely to have anything good in them, I'd probably sell 'em instead.

BTW, I remember hearing about an x-ray system developed for art restoration and study that creates layered views of the artwork so that underlying drawings and works can be "seen". Does anyone know about this and if so, why not apply it to unopened packs?

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Posted By: David

It's common knowledge that infrared viewers can't see through tobacco beetle carcases.

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Actually X-rays do work on the soft Sweet caporal packs from the 1909-1917 period. Apparently the ink used in printing had magnetic qualities. I do have a scan of a pack which shows what looks to be a card. I will be happy to post the picture when I figure out what's wrong with my temporary file.
thanks brian