Signed T206 Bender

[T206Collector]

I've moved my response to the main board here because something is awry. Naturally, if we've got a real signed T206 Bender here, I'm going to be all in ....even in this condition.

But here's the card:



Here's the purported LOA:



And here's the problem with the description in the LOA:

These are the Lot #11 auctions from Mastro in Spring 2005:

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/Lot...px?lotid=47162

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/Lot...px?lotid=45891

Neither is the Bender. Something appears amiss....

Also a search of all Bender related 206 items turns up no signed T206 of Bender -- you can search here:

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/auctionresults.aspx

In fact, a "bender autographed" search -- using the language from the LOA's description of the title -- turns up only the following, none a signed T206:

Auction Lot# Title Min Bid Final Price Status
November 2010 518 "The Athletics - World's Champions 1913" Signed Dinner Program Inside Cover (19 Signatures) Including Plank, Bender, Baker and Collins $300.00 $11,257.50 OVER
Mastro April 2006 1208 Hall of Famers Autographed Ball with Alexander, Baker, Bender, Hooper, Johnson, Nichols, Speaker and Pennock $500.00 $3,614.30 OVER
Classic February 2006 216 1960 Nu-Card Hi-Lites Complete Set (72) and 1950-1955 W576 Callahan Near Master Set (87) $100.00 $1,194.98 OVER
MastroNet December 2005 1222 1950-56 Callahan Hall of Fame Near Master Set (90) with Six Autographed Including DiMaggio $200.00 $1,205.55 OVER
Classic October 2005 48 Extensive 1939-2003 Hall of Fame Postcard Collection (232) $100.00 $282.00 OVER
MastroNet Winter 2004 567 Early Hall of Famers Autographed 3" x 5" Sized Collection with Cobb, Foxx, Ott, etc. (23 Different) $900.00 $5,768.40 OVER
MastroNet Spring 2004 700 Hall of Fame Autographed Original Photo Collection (4) $400.00 $2,132.10 OVER
MastroNet Spring 2004 1782 1940 and 1941 Play Ball Complete Sets (2) $1,000.00 $6,412.40 OVER
MastroNet Winter 2003 1761 Hall of Famers and Superstars Signed Photos Collection (43) $200.00 $1,428.30 OVER
MastroNet Summer 2003 758 1921 Testimonial Dinner Program Signed by Ty Cobb, Chief Bender and Ed Walsh $400.00 $1,321.35 OVER
Oser December 2001 331 1939 Who's Who in Baseball Autographed Book $300.00 $4,158.40 OVER
5-2001 574 Chief Bender Autographed 1904 Athletics Team Picture, Matted $400.00 $0.00 OVER
11-2000 1529 1940's-1960's Philadelphia Phillies Vintage Grab-Bag Collection $150.00 $341.55 OVER
10-2000 106 All-Time Hall of Famers Autographed Ball - $200.00 $1,071.80 OVER
9-2000 109 Autographed Baseball with Cy Young, Chief Bender, Kid Nichols, etc. $600.00 $1,794.00 OVER

Did I miss something? Perhaps not all of MastroNets auctions are available for a historic browse? Can anyone explain any of this, other than what currently appears obvious to me, i.e., that we're dealing with a forged LOA from James Spence?

I'd really like this card to be real, if for no other reason than it would be a great addition to the collecting community. But what is going on here?

[ChiefBenderForever]

Maybe from a live auction? Can Spence or mastro verify auction?
Red ink looks cool on the card hope it pans out for you.

That kinda sucks

[Tom S.]

I'm sure that a subsequent Letter of Authenticity vouching for the original Letter of Authenticity (concerning the "signed" Bender card) would clear this whole situation up...

[cdonne]

A lot looks off here...
The date corresponds to the Classic auction, yet is titled MastroNet Auction which was held in April. The lot does not match anywhere on the website...
Moreover, the letter does not look correct and I believe items in the Feb.(Classic) were still Spence/PSA and then in April the final transition was made and JSA formed its own entity.

Lastly, the signature just does not look right and seems more likely to come from a CCSA auction than Mastro...
I'd like to give Brandon the benefit of the doubt and think he was not out to sting anybody...based on previous items he has sold, they look legit...perhaps he got stung on this one.

[jb217676]

The seller should get this card slabbed before he offers it for sale. It would make him more money and provide peace of mind to both the buyer and seller. Also, how would a buyer know this LOA is for this particular card? Being a graphic designer, I could make one of those certificates in a few minutes on my computer.

[chaddurbin]

doesn't spence usually scan the item he authenticates and prints it right on the loa? not too familiar with the whole process, but the letter does give off an amateurish vibe even if it's real.

[erstevens]

This maybe means nothing, but the signature was put on the card after it had been heavily creased. The ink goes smoothly across the areas of broken cardboard. I don't pay much attention to signed cards, but I think most are in better shape that this. At least they were in better shape at the time they were signed.

Given the fishy LOA, my guess is that somebody bought the cheapest Bender he could find and put a signature on it. This card has at least three strikes against it.

[bbcard1]

FWIW, I had a lot of conversations with the seller on another item he had for sale. While we never made a deal, he seemed unfishy, if such is a word. That doesn't mean that unfishy people don't end up with fishy items sometimes.

The Chief lived until 1954, which would have given the T206 plenty of time to get ratty...so I would not make that a damning characteristic.

I'm not saying it is real, but I am saying it is up in the air from my perspective.

[Ease]

Pls everyone, give him a chance to respond again before jumping to conclusions, he hasn't ducked anything and has been open so far...

Ball point pen came out for use after Mr. Bender died. They were only available in black and blue for many yrs. Then red came out according to some searches. Not sure if it is ball point but it looks like it. Sure hope its not a nice felt tip And yes Chad I have not seen a Spence LOA without the accompanying picture of the item ever. Maybe a memorabilia guy could chime in about this. Also the bender auto's I had posted and others I have seen had some questionable anomalies. Not saying this is not real but I think most of us have our doubts.

Wish we had a poll on this thread

#1 Real

#2 Fake

#3 Questionable

Guess we could vote in our post headline/title.

[t206hound]

Isn't the simplest solution (at this point) for a prospective buyer to call up JSA to inquire about this letter and the corresponding item?

[Matt]

What is the cert#?

[ChiefBenderForever]

Brandon I hope you know where the seller lives you might have gotten sold some bunk autos, not looking to good at this point if that is the only letter you have.

Originally Posted by t206hound

Isn't the simplest solution (at this point) for a prospective buyer to call up JSA to inquire about this letter and the corresponding item?

in the BST post there was someone who said they had called Spence's office about this but was awaiting a return call.

[terjung]

From JSA's website...

[D. Bergin]

Looks like a standard Spence Auction House LOA to me.

I've got a couple from a Huggins & Scott Auction from 2007 that look just like that one.

No pictures or anything. Just date of the auction and description of lot on Spence stationary.

[T206Collector]

...I'm less concerned about the quality of the cert, which is as you explained, pretty standard for an auction house cert.

What I'd like to see is evidence of the Feb 2005 auction from which this purportedly came from...

[D. Bergin]

Yeah, I can't find it either. Did Mastro have smaller weekly auctions back then, like Heritage does? I can't remember.

Maybe got wiped away in the transfer to Legendary.

[T206Collector]

There was a Feb. 14, 2005 Mastronet Classic Collector Auction. I do not think they had another auction until April 2005. The dates don't line up, and I can't find the Bender in the Feb. 14 auction.

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Yeah, I can't find it either. Did Mastro have smaller weekly auctions back then, like Heritage does? I can't remember.

Maybe got wiped away in the transfer to Legendary.

From what I read they did 3 auctions a yr?? Not to say there was not weekly or monthly, but every search avenue tried fails to link a bender T206 auto. This card is a big deal. Even 5-6 yrs a go it would have been somewhat high profile right.

The december Mastronet auction didn't have it either. Just a link that mentioned the auction.
http://www.sportsantiques.com/Mastro12_05P1.htm

[Lordstan]

I have to say that the wording in the letter is unusual. I don't think I have any other Spence certs in my collection, so may be it's consistant.
In the cert it says "Includes LOA from James Spence." Now why would James Spence put this in his own COA?
Also it lists "Certification: NM." What does this mean? Is it the sig or the card, neither of whch would be considered near-mint?
Do all Spence Certs have this same wording?

If not, you put this together with being unable to find the auction lot listed anywhere brings this card very much into suspicion.

[vintagecpa]

Just my 2 cents since I have absolutely no idea how these auctions work. Is it possible the card was originally scheduled to be sold at the specified auction, but sometime between the issued certification and the auction, the owner or the auction house pulled the card off the auction and placed another item in the lot #? Just a thought.

Originally Posted by vintagecpa

Just my 2 cents since I have absolutely no idea how these auctions work. Is it possible the card was originally scheduled to be sold at the specified auction, but sometime between the issued certification and the auction, the owner or the auction house pulled the card off the auction and placed another item in the lot #? Just a thought.

It would still pop up under a search and reveal what lot # it was

[pgellis]

Just playing detective a little today.

Does this help at all?

http://www.t206museum.com/page/ne_auct.html

[tinkereversandme]

I do not understand why JSA hasn't commented on this matter. There name is attached to this item (if it has been certified by them) and the LOA doesn't look right to me and this looks like a phantom auction.

The seller wanted a $1,000 for this, but doesn't that seem a tad low considering it would probably be the only example in signed form, he passed away in the 1950's and Rube Marquard even brings $300-400? Where did the seller get this item, anyone know?

Not to mention that I have a pretty keen memory and would have remembered this item (probably would have circled it in the catalog) as I am interested, like many, in signed T206's and the proud owner of three.

Regards,

Larry

[shimozukawa]

.

[Powell]

Links:

iPhone URL:
1910 T206 Chief Bender (no trees) (Athletics) signed auto card rare

Browser URL:
1910 T206 Chief Bender (no trees) (Athletics) signed auto card

[Powell]

Link didn't work but it's a different card and dated 1931

[Powell]

Here's the link:
http://item.mobileweb.ebay.com/viewi...d=290839347762

[drc]

A genuine JSA LOA should have a JSA watermark in the paper. Even the auction house LOAs have the watermark. You often can see the watermark in a digital image-- and I don't see it here.

For the description, the auction house letters simply cut and paste the auction catalog description. Having read about 30 Mastro/Legendary catalogs and sometimes complained about their writing style, the description doesn't read like a Mastro description. They are almost never if ever as brief as here. Everyone here knows Mastro/Legendary likes their lengthy, evocative, sometimes poetic descriptions.

"Authentication: NM" What the Hell is that? That makes no sense. Neither Mastro or JSA would say that.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by bbcard1

FWIW, I had a lot of conversations with the seller on another item he had for sale. While we never made a deal, he seemed unfishy, if such is a word. That doesn't mean that unfishy people don't end up with fishy items sometimes.

The Chief lived until 1954, which would have given the T206 plenty of time to get ratty...so I would not make that a damning characteristic.

I'm not saying it is real, but I am saying it is up in the air from my perspective.

look at the history of the ball point pen. The black ball point pen didn't hit the mainstream until the late 40s. Is it possible that they introduced red ink and Chief got his hands on one before he died, sure. Likely? Idk.

[Powell]

But what about this?
http://item.mobileweb.ebay.com/viewi...d=290839347762

[T205 GB]

BST thread about this card
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...tograph+signed

[drc]

MastroNet for a short while did have weekly online-only auctions, and I wouldn't be surprised if those results weren't in the records. But those auctions were a few years before this.

[daves_resale_shop]

I think that this individual was trying to move a load of cuts that were all deemed to be forgeries...

Originally Posted by T205 GB

BST thread about this card
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...tograph+signed

[T206DK]

totally fake IMO

[T206Collector]

Look who’s back. Man some cards never die. Does anyone have an update as to whether JSA or anyone hasn’t given a full and accurate LOA on this one?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-1911-T...-/332503695160

[Bpm0014]

Returns not accepted....

[njdunkin1]

Thank you for the bump, almost dropped a few bids. Would hate to waste good money on a purported fake like this.

[Justus]

From PSA/DNA....

Dear Justus,

Your PSA/DNA QuickOpinion request for the item described as, "1909 1911 T206 HOF Charles Chief Bender Signed Autograph JSA LOA Sweet Caporal", eBay Lot No. "332503695160", was rendered on "12/31/2017" and the result is:

"Likely Not Genuine"

Here are the details:

Comments:
Request ID: 135210
Request By: 01/02/2018
Thank you for choosing QuickOpinion.

PSA/DNA Authentication Services
QuickOpinion@Collectors.com
1-800-325-1121

[Leon]

Originally Posted by njdunkin1

Thank you for the bump, almost dropped a few bids. Would hate to waste good money on a purported fake like this.

It is always good when someone doesn't waste money on garbage and this forum helped a little.

[T205 GB]

$1200 and climbing. The LOA looks like it was printed on the front and back of the paper. Doesn't Look like the Same LOA either.

[Trojan4Life]

Originally Posted by T205 GB

$1200 and climbing. The LOA looks like it was printed on the front and back of the paper.

And you are the high bid?

[T205 GB]

Originally Posted by Trojan4Life

And you are the high bid?

[Trojan4Life]

Originally Posted by T205 GB

Lol, why?

[Trojan4Life]

Originally Posted by T205 GB

Looks like you got it at $1411

[Trojan4Life]

Buy the camaro too!

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Trojan4Life

Buy the camaro too!

Maybe he should Bra.ndon Neub.aue. BTW, on this board if you want to pop off your name is going to be out here......Happy holidays.

[T205 GB]

Same guy as before it looks like. He 100% knows the signature is fake.

Won the auction, notified ebay, left negative, he bought one of my cards and left me a negative out of ignorance. Good deed for day is done