E121-80 Back "Types" Question

[VoodooChild]

Does anybody know why the four different E121-80 Back "Types" are not more universally accepted? I know that Rhett wrote a 2011 Old Cardboard article on the subject, but that is the only reference I can find. I've never seen a TPG flip which designates any sort of Type for E121-80 like I see with other issues (E210 and V61 come to mind among many others) and no Ebay or AH description ever mentions them. Does it have to do with the ACC not classifying the different types? If so, does the ACC ever get amended/updated when new info is discovered? Do any of you Type Collectors try and get the four different "Types" for your collection? Are there many other issues out there who's "Types" are not accounted for in the ACC and are not widely accepted?

Here's my four different types. The differences are subtle and maybe that has something to do with my question, but I've seen other issues with subtle differences in the various Types which are universally accepted:

[brianp-beme]

Rhett's work on this set was the first in depth study of the various backs that I know of as well, so I think it will take time for it to sink in and become standard to identify them as such.

The E220 National Caramel set is another that has multiple backs (three) that are not widely known and identified. I think the subtleties between backs combined with the lower collector base for these sets make them less likely to have their backs studied, or even considered to be relevant. The Neilson's V61-1 and V61-2 are sets not widely collected, however they have an advantage in that their backs are so distinct they can not be ignored.

There are even sets that have multiple versions that it seems that no one knows or gives a reservoir holding back structure about. The W573 set has three separate issues...the normal thin strip cards that are most commonly seen, the tinted green/sepia blank back ones that some might consider blank back E120's, although they often seem to be hand cut, and a thicker cardboard version that no one besides myself has ever seemed to mention that are larger in size and probably machine cut.

Brian

[ValKehl]

Jason, while I am not a collector of the E121-80 set, between my WaJo and Sam Rice card collections, I do have examples of the four backs you showed. Notice how the narrative reads from bottom to top (BtoT) on your Type 4 back when the card is flipped over, as opposed to from top to bottom (TtoB) on your Types 1, 2, & 3 backs. My Type 4 back also reads from BtoT, and I wonder if Type 4 backs that read from TtoB exist, as I have never seen one. I also have a Type 1 back that reads from BtoT (see below), and I wonder if Type 2 & 3 backs that read from BtoT exist, as I have never seen examples. Hopefully, Rhett can shed more light on these backs for us.
Val

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by VoodooChild

Does anybody know why the four different E121-80 Back "Types" are not more universally accepted? I know that Rhett wrote a 2011 Old Cardboard article on the subject, but that is the only reference I can find. I've never seen a TPG flip which designates any sort of Type for E121-80 like I see with other issues (E210 and V61 come to mind among many others) and no Ebay or AH description ever mentions them. Does it have to do with the ACC not classifying the different types? If so, does the ACC ever get amended/updated when new info is discovered? Do any of you Type Collectors try and get the four different "Types" for your collection? Are there many other issues out there who's "Types" are not accounted for in the ACC and are not widely accepted?

Here's my four different types. The differences are subtle and maybe that has something to do with my question, but I've seen other issues with subtle differences in the various Types which are universally accepted:

Jason, prior to my research I don't know if anyone else had ever noticed the difference between the Type 1 and Type 3 backs before. The Type 2 back was known, but it is sooo different in its layout that is hardly surprising. The fact that I could find no info on them is what led me to start researching the set about 10-15 years ago and slowly by slowly I came up with some interesting discoveries.

Unfortunately, our hobby has no real governing body that is "in charge" of cataloging new discoveries and most within the hobby are so against additions to the ACC that it appears it will never happen--which is completely against what J. Burdick tried to do (he purposely left gaps in numbering for future additions). That combined with the fact the SCD "bible" is apparently no longer being updated in any way has led to very little effort to document or update anything. A shame in my opinion.

Like Brian said, prior to my article this info just didn't exist. That being said I have been slowly updating my "Master Checklist" and am 100% convinced the following is the timeline of the different backs (when they were produced)...

#1-- Type 4 back (currently 9 cards known with this back) -this is the earliest back due to the addition of Lee Meadows which was part of the E135 set but dropped before any of the other E121-80 backs were made. Also of the other players known only the early versions of players with two poses have been found...WaJo w/ hands on chest, Hooper w/ shed in background, Sisler throwing, Ray Schalk batting, etc.

Every example of this back has their orientation "reversed" in which they are read from BtoT.

This back is a tricky one though because it may be just a partial back and may have been produced concurrently with the regular Type 1 back as I have only documented 9 cards with this back but of those 9 cards I have seen multiples of some of the players so it may not actually be a true full print run on its own.


#2-- Type 1 back (currently ~100 cards known with this back) -this is the most common back & probably accounts for 95-98% of the total E121 population. Several print runs with variations and some tough cards accounted for and a few true rarities (mostly due to subtle print errors, position changes, font styles, etc)

Most example of this back has the regular orientation, about 5-10% or so of cards with this back also have their orientation "reversed" in which they are read from BtoT. This is not a new back in my opinion but simply a print variation.

Pretty complex group of card due to the different print runs. Generally the early versions of the players with two cards tend to be the tougher ones (but varying rarities even within these). Some of the earlier cards include...WaJo hands on chest, Sisler throw, Pfeffer Brooklyn, Deal dark, Faber dark, Vaughn dark, Holke throwing, Hooper w/ shed, Toney no trees, Veach arms folded, etc.


#3-- Type 2 back (currently 70 cards known with this back) -this is the most common of the rare backs & in my opinion is 2-3x as common as Type 3.

EVERY example of this back has the regular orientation, I have never seen a reversed back orientation.

This set appears to have been printed prior to the tougher Type 3 back but both backs are found on the rare NY Giants and Yankees players. I long thought that the Type 2 and 3 backs would share the same checklist BUT I am not so sure anymore. Of the known cards there are about 40 known in this back that are simply remakes of earlier cards but now with the new back and about 25-30 of the "new" NY players. Produced late in the year correlating with the all-NY World Series & closely associated with the D383 Koester's Bread set (although that set had further additions.)

#4-- Type 3 back (currently 75 cards known with this back) -this back in my opinion is 2-3x tougher than Type 2. Don't let the known number fool you as there was a near complete vintage set that went up for sale a year or two back that accounts for the vast majority of the known population of this back, so while more Type 3 different players are known the total population of this back is def. smaller than the known total population of Type 2 cards (of which on certain players I have handled 6-8 of the same player all w/ Type 2 backs--even the most common of Type 3's I have never seen more than 2-3 examples of a single player)

Most examples of this back has the regular orientation but a good 10-20% have a reversed orientation (time may prove this number to be high or low)

This set appears to have been printed after the tougher Type 2 back. Again, I long thought that the Type 2 and 3 backs would share the same checklist BUT I am not so sure anymore. Of the known cards there are about 40 known in this back that are simply remakes of earlier cards but now with the new back and about 25-30 of the "new" NY players. Produced late in the year correlating with the all-NY World Series & closely associated with the D383 Koester's Bread set (although that set had further additions.). It should be noted that a few of the rarer NY guys have ONLY been found with this back w/ no corresponding Type 2--O'Leary Gaston, etc. This may not prove to be true as there are still cards to be found to fill in the known master checklists. Also, I feel this back was printed last as this back is identical to the following years "Series of 120" back but with "eighty" instead of "120" in the first line at top back.

Anyways, that was longer winded than I meant to be but thought it was important to consolidate my current understanding in one place.

I currently own the following
(90+ diff) Type 1 cards
(39 diff) Type 2 cards
(40 diff) Type 3 cards -more than half coming from that one collection
(4 diff) Type 4 cards

[VoodooChild]

Thanks for all of the info everyone, especially Rhett and all of the research/work you've done. Maybe someday all four of the different types will be more recognized. I would think that type collectors out there would want all four in their collections. How difficult would it be to get, let's say SGC, to start including the Types on their flips?

Rhett....I have never seen an example of a Type 3 with a reversed back. If you have some time, could you please post one of yours? I'm also curious to know if any of the rare Yankees/Giants exist with the reversed Type 3 or is it only found with the remakes.

I was working on an E121-80 set and got up to 60+ cards, but decided that I'm not a set collector. So, I sold around 40 or so but only the common Type 1's. I kept all my HOFers, Pirates, and Types 2, 3, and 4 backs. Here's the breakdown of the 21 cards that I kept:

10 Type 1's (3 of which are reversed)
5 Type 2's (3 are remakes, 2 are the rare Yankees/Giants)
5 Type 3's (3 are remakes, 2 are the rare Yankees/Giants)
1 Type 4

[ValKehl]

Rhett, thanks for sharing your very considerable E121 knowledge and research with us. The one variation that I am lacking an example of is the Type 3 with a BtoT back orientation. Do you happen to recall if you have ever seen one of these for either WaJo or Sam Rice?
Val

[Leon]

Great Post, Rhett. Right up there with a memorable Joe G analysis, Ted Zs running Bond Bread thread and a few others. As for change to the ACC, it would be difficult to do and I wouldn't be totally against it. I would probably prefer to add an addendum to it.

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

Jason, prior to my research I don't know if anyone else had ever noticed the difference between the Type 1 and Type 3 backs before. The Type 2 back was known, but it is sooo different in its layout that is hardly surprising. The fact that I could find no info on them is what led me to start researching the set about 10-15 years ago and slowly by slowly I came up with some interesting discoveries.

Unfortunately, our hobby has no real governing body that is "in charge" of cataloging new discoveries and most within the hobby are so against additions to the ACC that it appears it will never happen--which is completely against what J. Burdick tried to do (he purposely left gaps in numbering for future additions). That combined with the fact the SCD "bible" is apparently no longer being updated in any way has led to very little effort to document or update anything. A shame in my opinion.

Like Brian said, prior to my article this info just didn't exist. That being said I have been slowly updating my "Master Checklist" and am 100% convinced the following is the timeline of the different backs (when they were produced)...

#1-- Type 4 back (currently 9 cards known with this back) -this is the earliest back due to the addition of Lee Meadows which was part of the E135 set but dropped before any of the other E121-80 backs were made. Also of the other players known only the early versions of players with two poses have been found...WaJo w/ hands on chest, Hooper w/ shed in background, Sisler throwing, Ray Schalk batting, etc.

Every example of this back has their orientation "reversed" in which they are read from BtoT.

This back is a tricky one though because it may be just a partial back and may have been produced concurrently with the regular Type 1 back as I have only documented 9 cards with this back but of those 9 cards I have seen multiples of some of the players so it may not actually be a true full print run on its own.


#2-- Type 1 back (currently ~100 cards known with this back) -this is the most common back & probably accounts for 95-98% of the total E121 population. Several print runs with variations and some tough cards accounted for and a few true rarities (mostly due to subtle print errors, position changes, font styles, etc)

Most example of this back has the regular orientation, about 5-10% or so of cards with this back also have their orientation "reversed" in which they are read from BtoT. This is not a new back in my opinion but simply a print variation.

Pretty complex group of card due to the different print runs. Generally the early versions of the players with two cards tend to be the tougher ones (but varying rarities even within these). Some of the earlier cards include...WaJo hands on chest, Sisler throw, Pfeffer Brooklyn, Deal dark, Faber dark, Vaughn dark, Holke throwing, Hooper w/ shed, Toney no trees, Veach arms folded, etc.


#3-- Type 2 back (currently 70 cards known with this back) -this is the most common of the rare backs & in my opinion is 2-3x as common as Type 3.

EVERY example of this back has the regular orientation, I have never seen a reversed back orientation.

This set appears to have been printed prior to the tougher Type 3 back but both backs are found on the rare NY Giants and Yankees players. I long thought that the Type 2 and 3 backs would share the same checklist BUT I am not so sure anymore. Of the known cards there are about 40 known in this back that are simply remakes of earlier cards but now with the new back and about 25-30 of the "new" NY players. Produced late in the year correlating with the all-NY World Series & closely associated with the D383 Koester's Bread set (although that set had further additions.)

#4-- Type 3 back (currently 75 cards known with this back) -this back in my opinion is 2-3x tougher than Type 2. Don't let the known number fool you as there was a near complete vintage set that went up for sale a year or two back that accounts for the vast majority of the known population of this back, so while more Type 3 different players are known the total population of this back is def. smaller than the known total population of Type 2 cards (of which on certain players I have handled 6-8 of the same player all w/ Type 2 backs--even the most common of Type 3's I have never seen more than 2-3 examples of a single player)

Most examples of this back has the regular orientation but a good 10-20% have a reversed orientation (time may prove this number to be high or low)

This set appears to have been printed after the tougher Type 2 back. Again, I long thought that the Type 2 and 3 backs would share the same checklist BUT I am not so sure anymore. Of the known cards there are about 40 known in this back that are simply remakes of earlier cards but now with the new back and about 25-30 of the "new" NY players. Produced late in the year correlating with the all-NY World Series & closely associated with the D383 Koester's Bread set (although that set had further additions.). It should be noted that a few of the rarer NY guys have ONLY been found with this back w/ no corresponding Type 2--O'Leary Gaston, etc. This may not prove to be true as there are still cards to be found to fill in the known master checklists. Also, I feel this back was printed last as this back is identical to the following years "Series of 120" back but with "eighty" instead of "120" in the first line at top back.

Anyways, that was longer winded than I meant to be but thought it was important to consolidate my current understanding in one place.

I currently own the following
(90+ diff) Type 1 cards
(39 diff) Type 2 cards
(40 diff) Type 3 cards -more than half coming from that one collection
(4 diff) Type 4 cards