1994 National Autograph Price List

[tazdmb]

Found this while cleaning out my basement, I think some will enjoy it. I BELIEVE this was Mantle's last public show. I remember there being NO line for Mantle, as $80 ($80!) for an autograph was unheard of.

[RichardSimon]

$80 for an autograph of a currently living athlete should still be unheard of.

[Duluth Eskimo]

It is. What 90% of people don't understand is that the promoter sets all prices. If the promoter believes 150 people will pay the inflated rate, why should they set a fee that 600 would pay. If the athlete agrees to 800 autographs, the promoter makes his money on the 150 that pay the exorbitant amount and then they get to pocket 650 autographs for free. Or sell them to other dealers at a much lower rate. The good old days were when the promoter was hoping to break even on a guy like Mantle and divided the signing fee by 800 and that was your price. The last time I paid for Mantle at a show it was $20 and the promoter thought they were going to lose money the whole time. Only at the last minute were they able to go table to table and encourage dealers to buy more autographs. $20 and a six pack of beer went a long way back then. Jason

[DHogan]

When Bill Russell was signing autographs at a show in Boston around 1992 or so. They were charging $350.00.

[Duluth Eskimo]

I have to admit to being one of the people that paid $200 for DiMaggio to sign a ball when he wasn't signing balls and the going rate for flats was $50 for him. I think it was 91 or 92. Mantle was still signing bats and jerseys at that time. This was kind of the beginning of the end. I wanted to get it signed in person and back then you could still get a photo with the guy. I still have the ball and the photo as well as the memories. I think he then proceeded to bark at the person in line behind me. Fun times.

[packs]

I can't remember what year it was but I was at a Gloria Rothstein show in White Plains that had Ted Williams, Mantle, and DiMaggio. They were all charging $100 each. I remember thinking that was crazy but I would kill to go back in time now.

[Huck]

Originally Posted by tazdmb

Found this while cleaning out my basement, I think some will enjoy it. I BELIEVE this was Mantle's last public show. I remember there being NO line for Mantle, as $80 ($80!) for an autograph was unheard of.

Those were the days! I have a hard time shelling out ducats for Randy Johnson or Piazza at close to $200 which is more than I paid for Dimaggio or Mantle combined. If I want Mariano Rivera with the "Enter Sandman" inscription, I would have to drop more iron than what I paid for Ted Williams at his last show! I just keep telling myself that I don't need them all. When I mention to a collecting friend that he does not have this or that player on a piece he quips "I don't have Babe Ruth either." I laugh but it helps keep things in proper perspective.

[Mr. Zipper]

Looking at some of the "flat" prices, you'd be hard pressed to get that much today on resale.

[packs]

Depends on what the flat is. If you got the 56 Topps Mantle signed for 80 bucks you're doing pretty well today.

[Huck]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

Looking at some of the "flat" prices, you'd be hard pressed to get that much today on resale.

I am interested in hearing your opinion on the flat price for members of the baseball hall of fame that would be tough to break even on. Perry jumps off the page but who else?

[Huck]

I just noticed that Yaz was listed as a guest. What a rarity. He does one public signing a year and it is always in MA.

[Lordstan]

I agree about some of the flat prices, but it all depends on what the flat is. Many of those HOFers photos can be had on ebay really cheap, so many of those prices are really a no gain situation.
It's the rise from these prices that makes me wonder why anyone would pay for something generic to be signed at $50 or more. As an example, I looked Juan Marichal. He was $12 then and a recent private signing is $35. A search on ebay show only 3 photos out of about 40 sold for more than $30. Many that sold had PSA certs, which of course, adds more to the cost. I am sure, I could find other examples as well.
For me, unless it is a unique item, I will buy one on ebay rather than at a show or signing.

[Huck]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

I agree about some of the flat prices, but it all depends on what the flat is. Many of those HOFers photos can be had on ebay really cheap, so many of those prices are really a no gain situation.
It's the rise from these prices that makes me wonder why anyone would pay for something generic to be signed at $50 or more. As an example, I looked Juan Marichal. He was $12 then and a recent private signing is $35. A search on ebay show only 3 photos out of about 40 sold for more than $30. Many that sold had PSA certs, which of course, adds more to the cost. I am sure, I could find other examples as well.
For me, unless it is a unique item, I will buy one on ebay rather than at a show or signing.

With the amount of fraud that exists in the hobby why on earth would one buy an autograph off of ebay??? In person, I am willing to pay a little more so the promoter can make a profit. I get to see the player and witness the signature. IMHO, certifications are a license to print money. Tell, me what happens to the coa database when the certifying company goes out of business? COAONLINE used to handle authenticating items at CSA shows. I believe COAONLINE is now defunct. Poof, the coa database is history. Yes, companies like UD, and well known promoters (Tristar, MAB etc.) will likely be known on this site long after the business is gone. But what about the smaller outfits? You just can't be sure about any signature you or a trusted friend did not witness. With, IP your eyes authenticate the item. At the onset of this collecting madness (aka hobby) I vowed to get all signatures in person. For 15 years, I kept that promise before relenting and asking my brother-in-law to get Sam McDowell's signature on an SI for me. It was 18 years before I actually got an item signed via mail order. I create a record for each signature; item signed, date and place, promoter, items advertising the event, ticket stubs etc. anything that places me at the venue when the player was signing. All mail order and TTM signatures are lesser names, that if forging is taking place, so be it. I am not going to sweat it if my Wally Moon, Norm Sherry, or Scott Posednik signatures are fakes.

Yes, there are those who live in an area that does not have major shows nearby. I feel for you, but I would stick with mail order with the bigger promoters CSA, Tristar, MAB etc.

[sbfinley]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

$80 for an autograph of a currently living athlete should still be unheard of.

I could list two dozen active athletes I couldn't hand over $80 quick enough for and that's just for sets I'm working. I've got three consignments over $150 out on ACTIVE players at the moment and that's for IP signatures, not sit down signings. Living? That's a whole different story. I'd pay $500-$700 for a Sadaharu Oh signing at this point.

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by biohazard

I am interested in hearing your opinion on the flat price for members of the baseball hall of fame that would be tough to break even on. Perry jumps off the page but who else?

Brock, Carlton, Feller, Fingers, Jenkins, McCovey, Irvin, Marichal, Perry, Rose.... common show signers for decades. They were charging $15 - $20 for a flat over 20 years ago, and today you'd get around $20 for a flat on eBay. Some are easily found in the $10 bargain box at card shows.

Adjusted for inflation, they are losses today.

[bbcard1]

Bob Feller was always $10.

[Huck]

Originally Posted by sbfinley

I could list two dozen active athletes I couldn't hand over $80 quick enough for and that's just for sets I'm working. I've got three consignments over $150 out on ACTIVE players at the moment and that's for IP signatures, not sit down signings. Living? That's a whole different story. I'd pay $500-$700 for a Sadaharu Oh signing at this point.

I would love to see Oh at a show. I don't know if I would go as high as $700 but it would be tempting! Who knows, perhaps a promoter out there is thinking about an Ichiro and Oh road show!

[Huck]

Originally Posted by sbfinley

I could list two dozen active athletes I couldn't hand over $80 quick enough for and that's just for sets I'm working. I've got three consignments over $150 out on ACTIVE players at the moment and that's for IP signatures, not sit down signings. Living? That's a whole different story. I'd pay $500-$700 for a Sadaharu Oh signing at this point.

What would you be willing to drop on Koufax?

[Huck]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

Brock, Carlton, Feller, Fingers, Jenkins, McCovey, Irvin, Marichal, Perry, Rose.... common show signers for decades. They were charging $15 - $20 for a flat over 20 years ago, and today you'd get around $20 for a flat on eBay. Some are easily found in the $10 bargain box at card shows.

Adjusted for inflation, they are losses today.

But the common comment on the board is that most collectors "never plan to sell their collection." I am still willing to pay the going rate (within reason) to witness the player sign my item. If you did not see the item signed, tell me at times you don't wonder if the signature is really authentic? Peace of mind is worth something.

[egri]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

Brock, Carlton, Feller, Fingers, Jenkins, McCovey, Irvin, Marichal, Perry, Rose.... common show signers for decades. They were charging $15 - $20 for a flat over 20 years ago, and today you'd get around $20 for a flat on eBay. Some are easily found in the $10 bargain box at card shows.

Adjusted for inflation, they are losses today.

I think it depends what the flat is. On a generic 8x10 of Feller you'd lose money, but on his 1938 Play Ball rookie, or one of his Bowmans, you'd do well.

[Lordstan]

Originally Posted by biohazard

With the amount of fraud that exists in the hobby why on earth would one buy an autograph off of ebay??? In person, I am willing to pay a little more so the promoter can make a profit. I get to see the player and witness the signature. IMHO, certifications are a license to print money. Tell, me what happens to the coa database when the certifying company goes out of business? COAONLINE used to handle authenticating items at CSA shows. I believe COAONLINE is now defunct. Poof, the coa database is history. Yes, companies like UD, and well known promoters (Tristar, MAB etc.) will likely be known on this site long after the business is gone. But what about the smaller outfits? You just can't be sure about any signature you or a trusted friend did not witness. With, IP your eyes authenticate the item. At the onset of this collecting madness (aka hobby) I vowed to get all signatures in person. For 15 years, I kept that promise before relenting and asking my brother-in-law to get Sam McDowell's signature on an SI for me. It was 18 years before I actually got an item signed via mail order. I create a record for each signature; item signed, date and place, promoter, items advertising the event, ticket stubs etc. anything that places me at the venue when the player was signing. All mail order and TTM signatures are lesser names, that if forging is taking place, so be it. I am not going to sweat it if my Wally Moon, Norm Sherry, or Scott Posednik signatures are fakes.

Yes, there are those who live in an area that does not have major shows nearby. I feel for you, but I would stick with mail order with the bigger promoters CSA, Tristar, MAB etc.

Originally Posted by biohazard

But the common comment on the board is that most collectors "never plan to sell their collection." I am still willing to pay the going rate (within reason) to witness the player sign my item. If you did not see the item signed, tell me at times you don't wonder if the signature is really authentic? Peace of mind is worth something.

The answer to your question is this. People buy on ebay because they can. The stuff is there and usually less expensive for most modern and living players than most private signings or shows. For deceased players, it is much more convenient and sometimes less expensive than going to shows and Auction Houses.

The direct enemy of fraud is education. I have been collecting autographs since 1978 and have put a significant amount of time into educating myself about autographs. I have never ever claimed to be an expert, but I do feel very comfortable being able to identify good from bad for many player autographs. Armed with this knowledge, I can very easily sift out 99% of the bad autos on ebay of the ones I am interested in. If you, or anyone else, has not put the time and energy into the education, then it is very easy to be defrauded. I agree with many of your statements about the TPAs, which is why I only use them for items I am about to sell, if the cost of the process is less than the price difference I can get for a certed auto. Obviously, for many of the above players, the items are, for the most part aren't worth it monetarily.

I am not against getting autos and shows or through private signings, but only for specific items that I can't buy one of somewhere else. If you need a specific card from a specific set that isn't around, I can def see paying a premium to get it signed. I paid $800 for a Muhammad Ali signing to get this magazine signed. Why? Because there was no other way to get it done.




On the other hand, why would anyone pay $395, Koufax's last private signing fee(2015), for a plain Koufax signed ball? You can get good Koufax signed balls on ebay for at least $100 less. Obviously, if you have no idea what Sandy Koufax's sig should look like, you should absolutely not be buying one on ebay, or anywhere else for that matter, except a show/signing. I can't tell you how many Derek Jeter and Mantle balls that a certain member of this board has bought off ebay cheapy simply because people don't know what they are supposed to look like and have no certs.

If you choose to limit your autograph collecting to just those items you see signed in person, there is nothing wrong with that. I sleep like a baby and am totally comfortable in my experience and knowledge protecting me from bad autos. Have I ever been burned? Of course, it's a risk that is factored in when you collect autos. It's merely a matter of risk vs benefit. I am willing to accept, what I feel is a small risk, so that I can enjoy a wide range of autos in my collection. You don't feel that having deceased players in your collection is worth the risk. It's just a different way of looking at things. It's not a matter of right or wrong.

[Huck]

Whoa, whoa, whoa....I did not state nor was it my intention to say that there is a right or wrong way to obtain autographs. How one obtains signatures depends on the comfort level of the collector. I have been collecting autographs since 1991 and fraud was a common complaint then. At the time, I just decided to try and get all of my signatures in person. There was plenty of signed material at the former Tuff-Stuff shows in Richmond, VA, but I did not buy anything. Heck, I drove all the way to Kentucky to see Mantle and the very next year he appeared at the Richmond show! All the major (Williams, DiMaggio, Mantle, Aaron etc.) signatures in my collection are IP. I branched out to TTM, mail order, family and friends because, I can't be everywhere and some signatures could only be had at a private signing.

I think it is great that you are comfortable with your knowledge/expertise of signatures to purchase on ebay or anywhere you please. This isn't my first rodeo but I am just not comfortable buying signed material on ebay or at shows. One has to wonder as to the authenticity of a Mantle or DiMaggio or Williams selling cheaply on ebay. Lesser names, sure, I have dropped under $20 on a Ferris Fain b&w 8x10 for a project I was working on. If the signature is fake, so be it. I have viewed what I believe to be bad signatures on this board but did not comment because I am not expert. Recently, there was a signed card that looked off to me but other experts said it was "good". The thing is without seeing it signed or a strong provenance, no one really, really knows.

With bigger/popular/$$$ names I would be really careful.

I would enjoy adding a Cobb, Ruth or other big names to the collection, but it would take an ironclad provenance before I would shell out any $$.

On the subject of fraud, the entire PSA fake flips worries me. All I purchase is PSA slabbed cards and I am not an expert in flips and casings.

[sbfinley]

Originally Posted by biohazard

What would you be willing to drop on Koufax?

At $200-$250 I'd send a pair of cards in. With Koufax, however, you can usually find what need with a little patience. People complain about $250-$300 signing fees for greats, but have no problem turning a $500 RC into a $1200 card.

[Lordstan]

Originally Posted by biohazard

With the amount of fraud that exists in the hobby why on earth would one buy an autograph off of ebay???

Perhaps I over reacted, but your very first statement was pretty demonstrative about how you felt.

I also never said, you shouldn't be able to collect the way you want. I even stated exactly that there was nothing wrong with it.

Of course the Mantle, Dimaggio, Williams that sell for $200 are bad. Those are the easy ones to spot. No experienced auto collector worth their salt would ever buy one of those.

[Lordstan]

Originally Posted by sbfinley

At $200-$250 I'd send a pair of cards in. With Koufax, however, you can usually find what need with a little patience. People complain about $250-$300 signing fees for greats, but have no problem turning a $500 RC into a $1200 card.

Steve,
I would agree with you there. Unfortunately, his last signing in 2015 was $395 for cards as well as balls. Plus $250 for each inscription.

http://www.internetexclusives.com/sa...e-signing.html

Mark

[Huck]

Originally Posted by sbfinley

At $200-$250 I'd send a pair of cards in. With Koufax, however, you can usually find what need with a little patience. People complain about $250-$300 signing fees for greats, but have no problem turning a $500 RC into a $1200 card.

I don't think we will see Koufax under $250 anytime soon. I wish he would do a few public signings and call it a day. I am just glad that he appeared at Tuff-Stuff back in the 90's and I was able to add his signature to my collection.

[Huck]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

Perhaps I over reacted, but your very first statement was pretty demonstrative about how you felt.

I also never said, you shouldn't be able to collect the way you want. I even stated exactly that there was nothing wrong with it.

Of course the Mantle, Dimaggio, Williams that sell for $200 are bad. Those are the easy ones to spot. No experienced auto collector worth their salt would ever buy one of those.

No worries. We are just having conversation. I would be hard pressed to drop serious $ on a big name autograph that was on ebay. That is just me.

[jimjim]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

It is. What 90% of people don't understand is that the promoter sets all prices. If the promoter believes 150 people will pay the inflated rate, why should they set a fee that 600 would pay. If the athlete agrees to 800 autographs, the promoter makes his money on the 150 that pay the exorbitant amount and then they get to pocket 650 autographs for free. Or sell them to other dealers at a much lower rate. The good old days were when the promoter was hoping to break even on a guy like Mantle and divided the signing fee by 800 and that was your price. The last time I paid for Mantle at a show it was $20 and the promoter thought they were going to lose money the whole time. Only at the last minute were they able to go table to table and encourage dealers to buy more autographs. $20 and a six pack of beer went a long way back then. Jason

I have been saying this for years!! The promoters screw over the retail customer and then hook up other dealers and promoters with the 'backroom' wholesale price. It used to be that everyone paid the same price. But the promoter realized that they make more money this way, and the average customer is will pay it. They used to say that you are paying for the experience of meeting the athlete. Unfortunately, these days only a handful of athletes are even worth meeting. Most are talking on the phone, listening to music, or want extra money for an 'interaction'. Just not worth it in my opinion. I say that getting an item signed at a show is like buying a new car. The minute you walk away from that table, the value of the autograph just depreciated by 25%. Just take the retail price for a signing and divide by 2. That is what the wholesale/backroom price usually will be.

[jimjim]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

Steve,
I would agree with you there. Unfortunately, his last signing in 2015 was $395 for cards as well as balls. Plus $250 for each inscription.

http://www.internetexclusives.com/sa...e-signing.html

Mark

I recently read somebody post on another board that they participated in that singing as a wholesaler and they paid $50 per inscription. Maybe I misread their post?!

[Huck]

Originally Posted by jimjim

I have been saying this for years!! The promoters screw over the retail customer and then hook up other dealers and promoters with the 'backroom' wholesale price. It used to be that everyone paid the same price. But the promoter realized that they make more money this way, and the average customer is will pay it. They used to say that you are paying for the experience of meeting the athlete. Unfortunately, these days only a handful of athletes are even worth meeting. Most are talking on the phone, listening to music, or want extra money for an 'interaction'. Just not worth it in my opinion. I say that getting an item signed at a show is like buying a new car. The minute you walk away from that table, the value of the autograph just depreciated by 25%. Just take the retail price for a signing and divide by 2. That is what the wholesale/backroom price usually will be.

The promoter is not a non profit entity. The promoter should make some profit or there would be no reason to promote card shows. The money in autographs is made behind the curtain in the mail order/wholesale area. These days, unless the signing is restricted to X amount of sales, few athletes sell out. The National aside, most athletes likely do less 100-150 in person autographs at any given show. The rumor was Joe D did not get out of bed for less than $100K. In 1994, DiMaggio appeared at the National Pastime 11th Long Island Classic at Hofstra University. Flats were $150 and balls $175. There was a laundry list of things he would not sign. To break even on DiMaggio the promoter would have to sell 666 flats or 571 balls. There were quite a few people lined up to get Joe's signature but I am sure the bulk of the autographs were mail order or wholesale.

The tiered pricing and charging for inscriptions creases me a bit, but collectors were the cause for both. It used to be that the athlete would sign any item for a given fee. Well, then folks started flipping bats and jerseys for more than the fee and tiered pricing was born. While waiting in line for Brooks Robinson the collector in front of me asked Brooks to add, all 16 GG, MVP and HOF years, his lifetime HRs and batting average. I was in shock but Brooks added everything. I knew then it was only a matter of time before inscriptions would be limited or a fee would be added.

Mind you some athletes are better than others, but I am not looking for (1) making a friend (2) having an experience. I just want my item signed. I do care how the athlete interacts with children. I am polite I say "Hello" and thank the athlete for coming out. If the athlete is engaging that is just gravy. The only athletes who seemed bothered having to sign autographs were Reggie Jackson, Pete Rose and Ken Griffey Sr.. As they get older Jackson and Rose are getting better, especially Rose. Living athletes who are exceptional, John Montefusco, Bert Blyleven, Jack Morris, Brooks Robinson, Cal Ripken, Lou Brock and Dwight Gooden to name a few. As I said the list of pure tools is small.

The collector has the option of paying the going rate or taking a miss. I am have not added Randy Johnson to a HOF piece because I feel the price for an over sized flat is ridiculous. I can live without having RJ on the piece. I doubt I add Piazza either. As a collector I don't care if wholesalers are getting signatures at 1/2 price, they likely are getting generic items signed and are buying in lots of 50-100. I am building a collection, the wholesaler is running a business.

[mattjc1983]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

The answer to your question is this. People buy on ebay because they can. The stuff is there and usually less expensive for most modern and living players than most private signings or shows. For deceased players, it is much more convenient and sometimes less expensive than going to shows and Auction Houses.



The direct enemy of fraud is education. I have been collecting autographs since 1978 and have put a significant amount of time into educating myself about autographs. I have never ever claimed to be an expert, but I do feel very comfortable being able to identify good from bad for many player autographs. Armed with this knowledge, I can very easily sift out 99% of the bad autos on ebay of the ones I am interested in. If you, or anyone else, has not put the time and energy into the education, then it is very easy to be defrauded. I agree with many of your statements about the TPAs, which is why I only use them for items I am about to sell, if the cost of the process is less than the price difference I can get for a certed auto. Obviously, for many of the above players, the items are, for the most part aren't worth it monetarily.



I am not against getting autos and shows or through private signings, but only for specific items that I can't buy one of somewhere else. If you need a specific card from a specific set that isn't around, I can def see paying a premium to get it signed. I paid $800 for a Muhammad Ali signing to get this magazine signed. Why? Because there was no other way to get it done.









On the other hand, why would anyone pay $395, Koufax's last private signing fee(2015), for a plain Koufax signed ball? You can get good Koufax signed balls on ebay for at least $100 less. Obviously, if you have no idea what Sandy Koufax's sig should look like, you should absolutely not be buying one on ebay, or anywhere else for that matter, except a show/signing. I can't tell you how many Derek Jeter and Mantle balls that a certain member of this board has bought off ebay cheapy simply because people don't know what they are supposed to look like and have no certs.



If you choose to limit your autograph collecting to just those items you see signed in person, there is nothing wrong with that. I sleep like a baby and am totally comfortable in my experience and knowledge protecting me from bad autos. Have I ever been burned? Of course, it's a risk that is factored in when you collect autos. It's merely a matter of risk vs benefit. I am willing to accept, what I feel is a small risk, so that I can enjoy a wide range of autos in my collection. You don't feel that having deceased players in your collection is worth the risk. It's just a different way of looking at things. It's not a matter of right or wrong.

That mag is an amazing piece. Were you ever close to getting Unitas on it?

[Lordstan]

Unfortunately not. I wish I could go back in time for stuff like this.

[JustCollectVP]

Originally Posted by DHogan

When Bill Russell was signing autographs at a show in Boston around 1992 or so. They were charging $350.00.

June 1994 and it was $295 per and everything was cataloged and in January of 1995 he returned and signed with Chamberlain... That was the old Boston College High Show run by the Rose brothers.

[jimjim]

Originally Posted by JustCollectVP

June 1994 and it was $295 per and everything was cataloged and in January of 1995 he returned and signed with Chamberlain... That was the old Boston College High Show run by the Rose brothers.

Wow! I think that is the first time I have seen a Hall of Famer's price go down. You can now get signed authenticated photos from Bill Russell for under $100.

[chaddurbin]

agreed with mark and steve, lots of these guys are net losers today at those prices. i'd sleep pretty well at night paying $10 for feller etc hof signed pc on ebay knowing they are authentic. almost no one was getting rookie cards signed back then.