Slabbing old paper

[Fred]

First off I want preface this by saying I mean no disrepect to anyone that collects or sells the following:

Newspaper clippings that are encapsulated.

A while back there was a seller on ebay that used to cut things out of publications, encapsulate them in their own plastic slabs and sell them. People thought it was absolutely ludicrous that someone would do such a thing. It appears it wasn't too lucrative because I haven't seen much of that stuff sold by the seller recently. However, I've seen "woodcuts" that have been encapsulated. I don't get this. Is this any different than cutting a picture from a publication and having a "reputable" TPG company slab it as authentic? I've seen a few of these recently and I was wondering if anybody else thinks this is a bit odd or even silly? Why would a "reputable" TPG slab these things? Is business that bad? Am I off base here?

[steve B]

I suppose if it fits in the slab and someone wants to pay the price it's ok. Maybe only as authentic though.

The guy "slabbing" the clippings was trying to make them look like cards instead of bits cut from a reach or spaulding guide. And he graded them all as 10s. Pretty silly.

I wouldn't bother slabbing a newspaper clipping like a box score. An actual small woodcut from the 1800's maybe....But it still seems a bit odd.

Steve B

[bbcard1]

I bought a few woodcuts from the 1880s, made a photoshop background, and put them in a two piece. I am thrilled with adding a vintage hall of famer that is a contemporary representation from his playing days...and I got it for around ten bucks instead of having to drop more than a grand. I'd love to find a few more at that cost.

[ctownboy]

Fred,

From what I can remember, one of the guys (there were a few) you are talking about was from Hawaii and he seemed to do a good amount of business. That business, however, I think of as fraud.

As has been said, he would take an old newspaper or publication, cut some pieces out of them, put those pieces in slabs, grade them himself (a high grade) and then try and pass them off as something they weren't.

I think (hope) eBay put a stop to this when they made it a rule that items had to be from one of the reputable grading services if they were slabbed and graded.

Now, as far as what bbcard1 did, I don't have a problem if he took an old ratty publication, cut some pieces out and slabbed them for his own personal use and pleasure. He isn't "grading" them, trying to sell them or passing them off as something they aren't. No, he is just doing it for himself to look at.

Now, if he cut up a perfectly good guide then that is another thing....

David

[novakjr]

The newspaper clippings I think are silly. I originally wasn't a fan of encapsulated woodcuts and guide pages. BUT upon second thought, the woodcuts started to make sense, as they are technically pieces of art. Now, there is a second part to the woodcuts, and that's that they many times are the oldest depictions of a player(or at the very least close), and this often times makes sense for the guide pages as well, during years where there weren't cards, or the photo predates a players earliest card.

Now I'm not trying to justify encapsulating all guide pages, but some of them make sense. For instance, A 1906 Guide page of the '05 Tigers team, which would include an early photo of Cobb seems fine to me, while a random guide page with no discernable significance really doesn't make much sense to me..

Or, take this example. A 1894 Guide page of the '93 Cleveland team(composite), which includes early photo's of Cy Young, Jesse Burkett, plus Buck Ewing and John Clarkson.. Honestly, aside from the Just So's of Young and Burkett and the Ryder Cabinet of Young(all of which only a single example are known), this Cleveland Guide page significantly pre-dates most, if not all, reasonably attainable items of the the two. This item in my opinion deserves encapsulation..

I myself have a handful of guide pages in my collection. My one stipulation when it came to them is that it had to have a significantly early depiction of a notable player(usually a HOFer, and usually predating earliest card/pin/premium/whatever). Now, neither my Detroit page or my 1894 Cleveland page are currently encapsulated, but I do plan on it sometime soon..These are both very cherished items in my collection and I just feel like these individual items are worthy of encapsulation.

Now, when it comes to the individual photos that were originally part of a larger item(such as a team composite), I don't like seeing them encapsulated. I also don't condone cutting up guides, but if they're already torn out, I just wanna find the nicest way to display or protect them..

[drc]

A big thing is that 'AAA' eBay seller didn't say they were cut out of books or magazines, and would, in so many words, imply that they were trading cards. They were sold deceptively. I've seen cut out woodcuts in Becket holders, but the difference is they were clearly labeled as cut outs . . . The collectability is a second issues

Cutting out a 1880s Harper's woodcut is an interesting issue. The woodcut is a finished print-- that was placed amongst the text. The woodcut block used to make that print was a block of wood in an of itself that was placed within the typeset. If you cut out the woodcut, you are cutting out the whole woodcut. Duly note that I prefer the whole page to a cutout woodcut-- if due to aesthetics more than ethics. I think the entire newspaper page looks neatest.

[joeadcock]

David

Thanks for your explanation, but I still dont follow. Was interested prior in what was meant by a woodcut. As I have little knowledge of the process, could you explain it in a little more detail?

I dont understand how the wood was incorporated with a type set. Did they start with a piece of wood and somebody whittled out the players face/torso? Did they then add the words via typical type(metal). They then used ink on both and pressed it against paper?

Thanks

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by drc

A big thing is that 'AAA' eBay seller didn't say they were cut out of books or magazines, and would, in so many words, imply that they were trading cards. They were sold deceptively. I've seen cut out woodcuts in Becket holders, but the difference is they were clearly labeled as cut outs . . . The collectability is a second issues

Cutting out a 1880s Harper's woodcut is an interesting issue. The woodcut is a finished print-- that was placed amongst the text. The woodcut block used to make that print was a block of wood in an of itself that was placed within the typeset. If you cut out the woodcut, you are cutting out the whole woodcut. Duly note that I prefer the whole page to a cutout woodcut-- if due to aesthetics more than ethics. I think the entire newspaper page looks neatest.

Going back on encapsulated woodcuts. Personally, I prefer the whole issue(although harder to display, unless it's a cover), or at the very least the whole page. In both cases the items are usually to large to encapsulate. I'm not against the cutout woodcuts, but much like you, I prefer the aesthetics of the item as a whole..

[bcbgcbrcb]

As many of you already know, I am one of the biggest proponents of 19th Century newspaper woodcuts being encapsulated (always as "Authentic" only) by a major grading service. At this time Beckett is the only one of the big three that does so. SGC prefers to stick to cards and PSA prefers to stick with catalogued-only issues as their customer service people will tell you (not much room for misidentification there but I'm sure it happens more than enough).

For today's vintage baseball collector, the 19th Century woodcuts represent an affordable way to collect images of players whose cards are often so rare that you can't find one under 4-figures and that does not include some that will go for 5-figures plus. Why not be able to have your best items encapsulated for protection and uniformity in your collection.

I liken these woodcuts to the 20th Century "press photos" which, not too long ago were kind of frowned upon by many vintage baseball collectors but have more recently become an accepted and growing area of the hobby. Values of original press photos today are sometimes appreciating at a greater rate than many of the hobby's most iconic cards. Since the woodcuts, by their nature, were mass produced, I doubt that their values will ever approach the most prominent original press photos of the 20th Century but I think there is still room for a good deal of future appreciation.

Although I did have a number of baseball guide book pages encapsulated a little while back, I have come to realize that these pages are better left alone in their original form as part of the guide and the guide books themselves make better collectibles. Of course, the graded pieces are much better for display and since Beckett will not encapsulate cut-outs from these guides but instead full-pages only, I am okay with those collectors that prefer to go that route as Beckett clearly labels these items as such.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by joeadcock

David

Thanks for your explanation, but I still dont follow. Was interested prior in what was meant by a woodcut. As I have little knowledge of the process, could you explain it in a little more detail?

I dont understand how the wood was incorporated with a type set. Did they start with a piece of wood and somebody whittled out the players face/torso? Did they then add the words via typical type(metal). They then used ink on both and pressed it against paper?

Thanks

Exactly. The block is usually maple and they carve the design into the endgrain which can take fine detail. they remove all but what is supposed to print. Then the wood block is used as if it were a piece of type.

I did it in an art class, and it's pretty challenging. To think the newspaper guys turned out loads of them in any given week and all with lots of detail continues to impress me.

Some may actually be photographically etched copper plates. Still done by hand and very quickly...


Steve B

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

Although I did have a number of baseball guide book pages encapsulated a little while back, I have come to realize that these pages are better left alone in their original form as part of the guide and the guide books themselves make better collectibles. Of course, the graded pieces are much better for display and since Beckett will not encapsulate cut-outs from these guides but instead full-pages only, I am okay with those collectors that prefer to go that route as Beckett clearly labels these items as such.

Thanks for saying this. Unfortunately, there are so many people willing to buy pictures out of these guides, that they will be chopped up until there isn't a single one left that is not in a private collection. The newest thing is for the seller to state in his auction that the pages were "removed from a damaged guide." This is not always true - I followed his purchase/chop-jobs for a while, and he buys anything he can get cheap, and then chops it up. He doesn't slab them, but instead offers them in small collections of related photos from different years - this is very appealing to collectors, and lucrative to him, but a horrible idea in my opinion.

[HistoricNewspapers]

Hi,

There is nothing wrong with slabbing a woodcut or a portion of the paper(if one wants to collect that).
However, if it is only a portion of the paper, then the value of it takes a big hit.

Take this John L Sullivan Woodcut from the Police Gazette. It is his first championship victory, and it is a double page centerfold.

As part of the complete paper it is much more valuable. If I were to sell just the double page centerfold(or slab it), it would still have value, but not nearly as much as the entire paper.

If I were to cut one of the individual photos out of this, then I basically just destroyed all the value. I hate to see anything cut up. Even worse if people are being dishonest about it!

[Runscott]

Your point about woodcuts are good ones, as are the ones posted previously.

I have mixed feelings about the woodcuts - on the one hand, I sort of think that at the time these newspapers were created, the woodcuts were inserted intentionally to have appeal as items to be removed and tacked to the wall.

On the other hand, it's a different story 130 years later. I had all of the Harper's woodcuts at one time - a few as individual copies, but mostly intact in the complete newspaper. I would never have considered removing any of them - if I had wanted to frame one on the wall, I would have bought a copy that was already removed. A great example is the Buck Ewing - my Harpers that contained this one was in near mint condition with a special original brown cover. Ripping Buck out of the middle would have shown total disrespect for a historical item that simply can't be replaced. The value to the collector or seller, in my opinion, is irrelevant.

[bcbgcbrcb]

I for one can attest to the fact that a complete item, newspaper, guide, etc. is much more valuable and, more importantly, much more collectible if it is intact rather than having an individual piece removed from it. It took me a while but I have learned the hard way when atempting to sell these types of things. Typically, the larger woodcuts, like half-page to full-page do not sufer too much in value but smaller pieces are especially hurt. One exception might be the New York Clipper woodcuts from 1879-80 which Lew Lipset had catalogued years ago and are very rare to find intact with the player bios still attached under the image. IMHO these are very much undervalued and represent the earliest catalogued collectibles for several players including a half-dozen HOF'ers.

Unfortunatley, for display purposes, this often does not work out and that's probably why newspaper collectibles in general do not have a major collector base as compared to cards, photos, etc.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

I for one can attest to the fact that a complete item, newspaper, guide, etc. is much more valuable and, more importantly, much more collectible if it is intact rather than having an individual piece removed from it. It took me a while but I have learned the hard way when atempting to sell these types of things. Typically, the larger woodcuts, like half-page to full-page do not sufer too much in value but smaller pieces are especially hurt. One exception might be the New York Clipper woodcuts from 1879-80 which Lew Lipset had catalogued years ago and are very rare to find intact with the player bios still attached under the image. IMHO these are very much undervalued and represent the earliest catalogued collectibles for several players including a half-dozen HOF'ers.

Unfortunatley, for display purposes, this often does not work out and that's probably why newspaper collectibles in general do not have a major collector base as compared to cards, photos, etc.

Did you read yesterday where a Tuna (one fish) sold for $763,000? There used to be plenty of large tuna, but they were overfished. Even though they can be replenished (won't be, but could be), the price is now outrageous.

These woodcuts cannot be replenished. There are plenty now, but every time one gets chopped up, there's one less. Some day after we're long gone, there will only be a few that aren't in private collections. Those will be worth a fortune. That's just the way it works - inevitable. We're basically destroying the past for the present, screwing the future. But we'll be dead then, so who cares? <=== irresponsible attitude.

[Exhibitman]

The AAA guy was selling them as graded cards in the cards category. A blatant effort to defraud unwitting buyers.

I see nothing wrong with cutting an image out of an old Harpers and having it slabbed accurately labeled as such. If someone enjoys having that, fine. Perhaps they cannot afford a $10,000 N card and find collecting a woodcut to be a nice alternative. I wouldn't criticize a collector for making that decision.

Value is another matter entirely. It may be more valuable as a whole issue of Police Gazette or Harpers stored in a cabinet somewhere, but if the collector who owns it is happier with a cut in a tomb, that's his choice. Sometimes value doesn't matter to a collector who wants to enjoy his collection.

I think we sometimes forget that we aren't curators of a museum in charge of preserving someone else's entrusted materials. We are collectors of paper mass market products and childrens toys. I would not want to have someone tell me how to play with my toys, so I won't criticize someone who wants a 19th century woodcut in a slab.

[slidekellyslide]

There is a guy selling cutouts of the team photos from the Reach and Spalding guides, but he is not misrepresenting them like the guy from Hawaii was doing by encapsulating and grading them. I've bought a handful of them over the past few years just because I'd like a period item from every year of the early Lincoln clubs. I was also able to pick up three Nebraska Indians cutouts that had the names of the players listed which has been very helpful to me in identifying some players in other photos I have.

[bcbgcbrcb]

19th Century woodcuts and even early 20th Century Reach & Spalding BB Guides present a terrific opportunity for those vintage baseball rookie collectors like myself who seek each player's earliest collectible without necessarily having a huge budget to spend.

For example, an N172 Harry Wright issued from 1887-90 in lower-grade condition will cost you at least $3,000 for a presentable copy (not to even mention a Peck & Snyder card or other Wright CDV or cabinet cards). At the same time, you can pick up a clean example of an 1869 Cincinnati Team woodcut from Harper's Weekly or Leslie's Illustrated for around $150 and it also includes George Wright, another HOF'er as well. For HOF Rookie collectors, that's an item 20 years earlier (which is our ultimate goal, isn't it) at a cost of approximately 95% less than the lower-grade Old Judge card. If you are doing this for collecting purposes and not investment purposes, I don't see how you can lose with the woodcut in this scenario.

[HistoricNewspapers]

Woodcuts are a great opportunity to acquire early images of players for sure.

The famous 1865 Leslie's baseball print is a nice item at an affordable price!

[bcbgcbrcb]

Brian:

A couple of years ago, that one was selling in the $1,000 - $1,500 range, I believe. These days, it seems to be down in the $500 range for some reason. Maybe a decent number of them have made their way out of the "woodwork".............

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

19th Century woodcuts and even early 20th Century Reach & Spalding BB Guides present a terrific opportunity for those vintage baseball rookie collectors like myself who seek each player's earliest collectible without necessarily having a huge budget to spend.

For example, an N172 Harry Wright issued from 1887-90 in lower-grade condition will cost you at least $3,000 for a presentable copy (not to even mention a Peck & Snyder card or other Wright CDV or cabinet cards). At the same time, you can pick up a clean example of an 1869 Cincinnati Team woodcut from Harper's Weekly or Leslie's Illustrated for around $150 and it also includes George Wright, another HOF'er as well. For HOF Rookie collectors, that's an item 20 years earlier (which is our ultimate goal, isn't it) at a cost of approximately 95% less than the lower-grade Old Judge card. If you are doing this for collecting purposes and not investment purposes, I don't see how you can lose with the woodcut in this scenario.

Exactly. I lucked into my 1869 Harper's woodcut of The Cincinnati team for under $20. Mostly because it was the full issue, and the seller never mentioned the woodcut specifically in the listing. It's currently stored away for safe keeping. I'm still working on a way to display it properly, but I definitely DO NOT plan on cutting it up. Sure having it as a full issue is creating displayability problems for me thus far, but I'd rather have this problem than just the page, or worse yet, just the woodcut..

And while I'm doing this for collecting purposes, I agree with Phil, you really can't lose. But hell, even if I were in it for the investment, the $20 I spent on it seems like a good one..

[Runscott]

So you guys have absolutely no respect for history, but yet you enjoy collecting it.



Carry on.

[aquarius31]

I prefer woodcuts to be unaltered and in their original state. That said, if someone wants to slab them for part of their own collection or wants to sell them with the disclaimer that they're cut outs, I don't see a problem with it. In fact, some collectors prefer them slabbed, just not me.

As some people have already said, the woodcuts are more valuable as part of the original publication (with some very interesting articles) although I think that the larger full page and double page woodcuts are just as valuable if removed in a manner where it does minimal or no damage to the borders. You'll also see many woodcuts which have literally been cut out and essentially destroy the rest of the page. IMO, that is really such a shame for such great pieces.

Some woodcuts are very difficult to come by (Brian, that Police Gazette one is superb) and I do think that in general they are becoming harder to find even if they are affordable. A few additional random observations and comments based on some of the previous posts.

1) The 1889 Buck Ewing Harper's cover has been referred to as a woodcut but it's not. Take a look at it with a loupe and you'll see the dot pattern although within the newspaper itself I have found a mix of woodcuts and mechanical prints. Perhaps this is the first baseball related Harper's weekly which is not a woodcut.

2) I had previously found a great thread on how to display the woodcuts. The thread mentioned the Itoya Art Profolio presentation book. I purchased one a few months back and it works great. It stores ~48 woodcuts and the best size for most Harper's woodcuts is 19" x 13".

3) If anyone has any of the Leslie's woodcuts for sale (other than Creighton), please let me know.

Since we're on the topic of woodcuts and cutouts, if anyone has a woodcut that would be appropriate for this one, let me know

[bcbgcbrcb]

George:

You probably know this already but that is Henry Chadwick on the right-hand side in the center.

[aquarius31]

Hi Phil, I did not know that so thanks for letting me know!

[bcbgcbrcb]

No problem, George, that is a major reason why it is so valuable and considered by many to be the "holy grail" of 19th Century woodcuts.

[Fred]

I've always liked woodcuts but I think the idea of cutting up the full page woodcuts to make smaller woodcuts is aweful. I can almost understand removing them from a publication but to me I feel the value of the woodcut would be in the native form from which it was found. It would be interesting to read the articles from that period in time. IMHO, encapsulating them for some reason or other just seems silly to me. Perhaps that makes me some kind of hypocrite because I see nothing wrong with cards being encapsulated. Please, by all means continue posting the full page woodcuts, those are just so cool.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Here's a rare full-page woodcut (1868 Sporting Life picturing both Harry & George Wright), never seen another copy of this one.............

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Fred

I've always liked woodcuts but I think the idea of cutting up the full page woodcuts to make smaller woodcuts is aweful. I can almost understand removing them from a publication but to me I feel the value of the woodcut would be in the native form from which it was found. It would be interesting to read the articles from that period in time. IMHO, encapsulating them for some reason or other just seems silly to me. Perhaps that makes me some kind of hypocrite because I see nothing wrong with cards being encapsulated. Please, by all means continue posting the full page woodcuts, those are just so cool.

Edited: Fred, I'm with you, but $$$ talk. I suggest you do what I do, while you still can: get the magazines, newspapers, guides, etc., that interest you - while they are cheap. Build a library and share it with others.

[HistoricNewspapers]

Phil,

That Leslie's piece is awesome.

I think part of the reason why the price has come down on it is because Ebay isn't as good a place to sell as it once was...and it is difficult to get your items noticed. Plus of course the current state of the economy.

Back when they had the featured first function, the amount of hits I was getting on items was crazy...they would all do well, and one out of every ten auctions I had would finish in the stratosphere. It is different now...and slow!

[HistoricNewspapers]

Phil,

That 1868 Sportling Life woodcut is amazing...and very hard to find! Congrats!

I love the Police Gazette issues, my favorite being from the Civil War era, like the Lincoln one below:

[aquarius31]

Very nice guys. Here's one that I've shown before.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Thanks, Brian.

Beauty, George!

Here's one more of my favorites, an 1885 Leslie's Illustrated - Chicago Team w/Anson, Clarkson & Kelly..........