In all the T206 back discussions I've never seen this question

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

How many different homogeneous back complete sets can be made. If you exclude the big 3, can complete sets be made of Piedmont 150 Factory 25 backs? Do you have to eliminate the series (150, 350, 350-450) to be able to complete a Piedmont 25 set? How many individual back variations have an example of every card, and how lenient do you have to be of series and factory numbers to make it work?

[trdcrdkid]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

How many different homogeneous back complete sets can be made. If you exclude the big 3, can complete sets be made of Piedmont 150 Factory 25 backs? Do you have to eliminate the series (150, 350, 350-450) to be able to complete a Piedmont 25 set? How many individual back variations have an example of every card, and how lenient do you have to be of series and factory numbers to make it work?

T206resource.com has checklists for all the different backs, here:

http://t206resource.com/Checklist%20Main.html

No back brand has all the fronts, but I think Piedmont (factory 25) comes closes, if you combine the 150, 350, and 460 varieties. Ted Z would know about this, since I believe he has an all-Piedmont set. To answer your specific question, there are only 156 different fronts with Piedmont 150 Factory 25 backs:

http://t206resource.com/Piedmont%20150%20Checklist.html

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

that almost takes all the fun out of it. great resource, thanks.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

How many different homogeneous back complete sets can be made. If you exclude the big 3, can complete sets be made of Piedmont 150 Factory 25 backs? Do you have to eliminate the series (150, 350, 350-450) to be able to complete a Piedmont 25 set? How many individual back variations have an example of every card, and how lenient do you have to be of series and factory numbers to make it work?

Originally Posted by trdcrdkid

No back brand has all the fronts, but I think Piedmont (factory 25) comes closes, if you combine the 150, 350, and 460 varieties. Ted Z would know about this, since I believe he has an all-Piedmont set. To answer your specific question, there are only 156 different fronts with Piedmont 150 Factory 25 backs:

Hi Scott
Yes, your question has been addressed many years ago.

Having completed (minus Doyle, Plank and Wagner) an all-PIEDMONT (Factory #25) brand set of T206's confirms all 522 subjects in the set are included with the PIEDMONT back.
Note....the Demmitt & O'Hara (St Louis) variations were printed only with POLAR BEAR backs.

Any other T206 tobacco back (SWEET CAPORAL, SOVEREIGN, etc.) set falls short of this number.

For example, my completed (minus Wagner) all-SWEET CAPORAL (Factory #30) set comprises of 468 cards.

And, my completed all-SOVEREIGN set comprises of 402 cards.


TED Z
.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

very cool. that was exactly what I was wondering.

[PhillipAbbott79]

Originally Posted by trdcrdkid

T206resource.com has checklists for all the different backs, here:

http://t206resource.com/Checklist%20Main.html

No back brand has all the fronts, but I think Piedmont (factory 25) comes closes, if you combine the 150, 350, and 460 varieties. Ted Z would know about this, since I believe he has an all-Piedmont set. To answer your specific question, there are only 156 different fronts with Piedmont 150 Factory 25 backs:

http://t206resource.com/Piedmont%20150%20Checklist.html

The Plank and Wagner in piedmont 150 were unissued, bringing that down to 154. They are scraps.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by PhillipAbbott79

The Plank and Wagner in piedmont 150 were unissued, bringing that down to 154. They are scraps.

Nevertheless, Wagner and Plank were printed with PIEDMONT 150 backs. And, do we really know if the few PIEDMONT Wagner's were issued or not ?

Incidentally, the famous (or infamous) Gretzky Wagner is a PIEDMONT 150 card.


TED Z
.

[Sean]

If the story about the Gretzky Wagner being cut from a sheet is true, that would still make it a scrap.

[Pat R]

There is also this Plank
http://www.goodwinandco.com/lot-19549.aspx

that led to different opinions in this thread
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=149071

[HobokenJon]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hi Scott
Yes, your question has been addressed many years ago.

Having completed (minus Doyle, Plank and Wagner) an all-PIEDMONT (Factory #25) brand set of T206's confirms all 522 subjects in the set are included with the PIEDMONT back.
Note....the Demmitt & O'Hara (St Louis) variations were printed only with POLAR BEAR backs.

Any other T206 tobacco back (SWEET CAPORAL, SOVEREIGN, etc.) set falls short of this number.

For example, my completed (minus Wagner) all-SWEET CAPORAL (Factory #30) set comprises of 468 cards.

And, my completed all-SOVEREIGN set comprises of 402 cards.


TED Z
.

Ted, could you please explain what you mean when you say your all-Sovereign set has 402 cards? There are 484 Sovereign cards in all, according to T206 Resource. That includes 150 Sov 150 subjects, 216 Sov 350 forest-green subjects, 66 Sov 350 apple green subjects, and 52 Sov 460 subjects.

[sreader3]

I should let Ted speak for himself but I don't think he double-counts the 150/350 guys who are available with both Sov 150 and Sov 350. That may account for the difference.

[HobokenJon]

Is it a complete Sovereign set if it lacks some of the Sovereign cards? What's the consensus? The six super-prints come in both Sov 460 and Sov 350 apple green. So that's another handful of cards where there's overlap between the different Sovereign series.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by HobokenJon

Ted, could you please explain what you mean when you say your all-Sovereign set has 402 cards? There are 484 Sovereign cards in all, according to T206 Resource. That includes 150 Sov 150 subjects, 216 Sov 350 forest-green subjects, 66 Sov 350 apple green subjects, and 52 Sov 460 subjects.

Jon

A complete basic all-SOVEREIGN set consists of 402 different T206 subjects. This is the set that I originally put together in 2007.

When you include the 6 super-prints (on display here) with their SOVEREIGN 460 backs, plus the repeated 150 series cards (76) with their SOVEREIGN 350 backs,
you then have a complete Master SOVEREIGN set totaling 484 cards.



.



...............







Thanks Scot for your support.


TED Z
.

[HobokenJon]

Ah, got it. Many thanks, Ted.

[HercDriver]

I wonder what the extra card is...

If you add up the Sovereigns on the T206 Resource checklists, you get 483.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by HercDriver

I wonder what the extra card is...

If you add up the Sovereigns on the T206 Resource checklists, you get 483.

Hi Geno

I checked out my SOVEREIGN set and my count is 483.

The Chance (red portrait) card with a SOVEREIGN 350 back has been claimed to exist. However, I don't have it; and, I have not seen it.

If anyone on this forum has this card with a SOVEREIGN 350 back, please chime in.

Thanks.


TED Z
.

[HercDriver]

Cool...thanks, Ted!! Add that to the 123 in the T205 set, and it looks like my collection will someday total 606 cards!

Take Care,
Geno

[HobokenJon]

Upon further review, it appears that the 215-vs.-216 / 483-vs.-484 discrepancy at T206 Resource centers on the Fred Clarke portrait, rather than the Chance red portrait. But there's reason to wonder whether either one should be listed as having a confirmed Sov 350 (forest green) back.

On the backs checklist for Clarke portrait, T206 Resource lists Sov 350 (forest green) as confirmed: http://bit.ly/2lBf32C

T206 Resource also lists Sov 350 (forest green) as confirmed on the Sovereign master checklist and on the T206 master spreadsheet. Note, too, that the Sovereign master checklist at the bottom says there are 484 Sovereign cards in all:

http://www.t206resource.com/Checklis...Sovereign.html

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...hl=en_US#gid=0

However, for some reason the Clarke portrait is listed on the Sov 350 (forest green) checklist as a "probable no print." There are 215 cards if you exclude it and 216 if you include it. See here: http://www.t206resource.com/Sovereig...Checklist.html

(The Clarke portrait is actually shown twice on that page: once in the "probable no print" section, and again floating sort of randomly on top of -- but not within -- the "confirmed" checklist.)

But then the mystery deepens. Neither SGC nor PSA shows a confirmed Sov 350 Clarke portrait in its population report. The same is true of the Chance red portrait, as Ted alluded to. However, T206 Resource is consistent throughout its website in its classification of the Chance red portrait as "confirmed" with a Sov 350 forest green back. (Perhaps they know something we don't.)

So is 214, or 215, or 216 the right number of Sov 350 subjects? Who knows? Now I'm curious to know how many other "confirmed" Sov 350 cards might be less confirmed than others. If anyone has either of these cards, please speak up!

Ted, do you perchance have a Sov 350 Clarke portrait?

[PhillipAbbott79]

There are no PSA confirmed Chance Red Portraits.

[tedzan]

Jon

I do not have a Clarke (portrait) with a SOVEREIGN 350 back. Furthermore, I have never seen one.


TED Z
.

[HobokenJon]

That's really intriguing, Ted. So if . . . . . (1) your Sovereign count is 483, and (2) you've never seen a Sov 350 Chance red portrait or a Sov 350 Clarke portrait, and (3) T206 Resource shows 484 cards on the Sovereign master checklist including a Sov 350 red Chance and a Sov 350 Clarke portrait, then, algebraically speaking . . . . . Does that mean you own, or otherwise have confirmed the existence of, a Sovereign card (presumably 350 forest green) that is classified as "unconfirmed" by T206 Resource? If so, which one?

[tedzan]

Jon

Here is my breakdown of the cards in a SOVEREIGN Master set ......

150 ...... SOVEREIGN 150
. 75 ...... SOVEREIGN 350 (forest green) 150/350 series
. 81 ...... SOVEREIGN 350 (forest green) Major Leaguers
. 59 ...... SOVEREIGN 350 (forest green) Minor Leaguers
. 66 ...... SOVEREIGN 350 (apple green) subjects
. 46 ...... SOVEREIGN 460 subjects
. . 6 ...... SOVEREIGN 460 Super-Prints
-----
483


TED Z
.

[HobokenJon]

Are you including the Clarke portrait in the 150/350 series?

[tedzan]

No Chance, no Clarke.

I don't think these two subjects were printed with SOVEREIGN 350 backs.

TZ

[Sean]

Hi Ted. Jon's point was that T206resource.com lists 484 Sovereigns, including Chance and Clarke. If they are indeed no-prints, that makes 482 cards. But you say 483, so is there another Sov on your list that is uncatalogued?

[tedzan]

Sean

The SOVEREIGN 350 (forest green) list in t206 resource totals only 215 subjects. There is something confusing here ? ?

Incidentally, this list has Chesbro confirmed with SOVEREIGN 350 (forest green). I don't think so....I have never seen this card.
And, neither POP reports' data identifies this f/b combo as graded.


TED Z
.

[RedsFan1941]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Jon

Here is my breakdown of the cards in a SOVEREIGN Master set ......

150 ...... SOVEREIGN 150
. 75 ...... SOVEREIGN 350 (forest green) 150/350 series
. 81 ...... SOVEREIGN 350 (forest green) Major Leaguers
. 59 ...... SOVEREIGN 350 (forest green) Minor Leaguers
. 66 ...... SOVEREIGN 350 (apple green) subjects
. 46 ...... SOVEREIGN 460 subjects
. . 6 ...... SOVEREIGN 460 Super-Prints
-----
483


TED Z
.

Originally Posted by tedzan

Sean

The SOVEREIGN 350 (forest green) list in t206 resource totals only 215 subjects. There is something confusing here ? ?

Incidentally, this list has Chesbro confirmed with SOVEREIGN 350 (forest green). I don't think so....I have never seen this card.
And, neither POP reports' data identifies this f/b combo as graded.


TED Z
.

Hi Ted,

Thanks for sharing all of your incredible knowledge. I don't understand your "215" comment as it applies to T206 Resource. When I add up your list of forest greens, it totals 215 too. So why would T206 Resource's list be incorrect, in your opinion, if you both list 215 forest greens?

(P.S. Always GREAT talking cards in Cooperstown with you!)

[HobokenJon]

Hi, Ted. Respectfully, sir, please read my prior post that chronicles in great detail -- with links -- how T206 Resource has published conflicting information regarding how many cards are confirmed with Sov 350 forest green backs. I enjoy your posts and the authority with which you write. But you're not addressing the question I asked, and I believe a lot of T206 collectors would benefit if you could. Kind regards, Jon

[HobokenJon]

Here's another data set for consideration: The T206 master spreadsheet at T206 Resource lists 81 confirmed Sov 350 forest green backs from Print Group 1 (150-350).

Ted, you said your breakdown showed 75 cards in the Sov 350 (forest green) 150/350 series. So that's a difference of six. Which ones do you think T206 Resource got wrong? And do you know of any that it erroneously left out?

Here's the list, cut and pasted from the T206 master spreadsheet, which can be found at this link:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...hl=en_US#gid=0

Ed Abbaticchio Brown Sleeves Pittsburgh
Red Ames Portrait NY Giants
George Bell Hands above Head Brooklyn
Chief Bender Portrait Phil A's
Joe Birmingham Horizontal Cleveland
Roger Bresnahan Portrait StL Cardinals
Al Bridwell No Cap NY Giants
George Brown Batting Washington
Mordecai Brown Portrait Chi Cubs
Howie Camnitz Arms Folded Pittsburgh
Frank Chance Red Portrait Chi Cubs
Jack Chesbro Portrait NY Highlanders
Ed Cicotte Follow Thru Boston Red Sox
Fred Clarke Portrait Pittsburgh
Fred Clarke Batting Pittsburgh
Ty Cobb Bat on Shoulder Detroit
Sam Crawford Throwing Detroit
Lou Criger Portrait StL Browns
Dode Criss Follow Thru StL Browns
Bill Dahlen Portrait Brooklyn
George Davis Throwing Chi White Sox
Art Devlin Portrait NY Giants
Mike Donlin Seated NY Giants
Jiggs Donohue Follow Thru Chi White Sox
Red Dooin Portrait Phil Phillies
Patsy Dougherty Portrait Chi White Sox
Kid Elberfeld Portrait NY Highlanders
Hobe Ferris Throwing StL Browns
Elmer Flick Batting Cleveland
Wilbur Goode Batting Cleveland
Clark Griffith Portrait Cincinnati
Frank Isbell Follow Thru Chi White Sox
Fred Jacklitsch Fielding Phil Phillies
Hughie Jennings Portrait Detroit
Walter Johnson Portrait Washington
Fielder Jones Portrait Chi White Sox
Fielder Jones Standing Chi White Sox
Tim Jordan Portrait Brooklyn
Addie Joss Portrait Cleveland
Willie Keeler Batting NY Highlanders
Ed Killian Pitching Detroit
Red Kleinow Batting NY Highlanders
Johnny Kling Portrait Chi Cubs
Ed Konetchy Glove High StL Cardinals
Nap Lajoie Portrait Cleveland
Tommy Leach Portrait Pittsburgh
Lefty Leifield Pitching Pittsburgh
Glenn Liebhardt Batting Cleveland
Rube Manning Batting NY Highlanders
Christy Mathewson Portrait NY Giants
John McGraw Portrait no Cap NY Giants
John McGraw Finger in Air NY Giants
Fred Merkle Portrait NY Giants
Danny Murphy Horizontal Phil A's
Simon Nicholls Fielding Phil A's
Harry Niles Standing Boston Red Sox
Rube Oldring Fielding Phil A's
Charles O'Leary Portrait Detroit
Fred Parent Portrait Chi White Sox
Jim Pastorius Ready to Throw Brooklyn
Cy Seymour Batting NY Giants
Jimmy Sheckard Pink Sky (No Glove) Chi Cubs
Bill Shipke Fielding Washington
Frank Smith F. Smith Chi White Sox
Jake Stahl No Glove Boston Red Sox
George Stone Portrait StL Browns
George Stovall Portrait Cleveland
Billy Sullivan Portrait Chi White Sox
Fred Tenney Portrait NY Giants
Joe Tinker Hands on Knees Chi Cubs
Terry Turner Portrait Cleveland
Rube Waddell Portrait StL Browns
Rube Waddell Throwing StL Browns
Bobby Wallace Portrait StL Browns
Ed Walsh Portrait Chi White Sox
Jake Weimer Portrait NY Giants
Doc White Portrait Chi White Sox
Vic Willis Portrait Pittsburgh
Hooks Wiltse Portrait No Cap NY Giants
Cy Young Portrait Cleveland
Cy Young Bare Hand Cleveland

[Pat R]

Jon,

George Browne (Washington) and Bill Dahlen (Brooklyn) are Print group 1 but they're
350 only subjects.

[HobokenJon]

Good catch.

[HobokenJon]

In addition, I looked through the population reports and found eight cards from the T206 Resource list that both PSA and SGC show no record of having graded. We previously had mentioned the Fred Clarke, Frank Chance red portrait, and Jack Chesbro. Here's the list of the eight "pop zero" Print Group 1 Sov 350 (forest green) cards that T206 Resource classifies as "confirmed."

Frank Chance Red Portrait Chi Cubs
Jack Chesbro Portrait NY Highlanders
Fred Clarke Portrait Pittsburgh
Tim Jordan Portrait Brooklyn
Ed Killian Pitching Detroit
Ed Konetchy Glove High StL Cardinals
Tommy Leach Portrait Pittsburgh
Jim Pastorius Ready to Throw Brooklyn

Can anyone out there confirm independently that any of these eight cards exists?

On a related note, SGC's pop report shows a single graded copy of George Davis, while PSA shows no graded copies. I'm wondering if SGC might have made an error. Has anyone else ever seen a George Davis with a Sov 350 back?

On a related note, it's also curious that T206 Resource says Pastorius has been confirmed with an EPDG back. This, too, is a "pop zero" card, according to the PSA and SGC pop reports. Has anyone ever seen an EPDG Pastorius?

[Luke]

Good stuff Jon. I'm like 99% sure I've never seen any of those front/back combos.

[Sean]

I have a couple of them with Sov 150 backs, but none with a Sov 350.

[HobokenJon]

Regarding Pastorius . . . I think we can rule out that one in a Sov 350 back. But his card's example does underscore the point that T206 Resource sometimes posts erroneous, and even conflicting, data. (They're only human.)

Pastorius is listed as confirmed on the site's "T206 White Borders Master Checklist." But on both his player checklist and the Sov 350 (forest green) checklist, the card is listed as a "probable no print."

This is similar to the situation with Fred Clarke's portrait card. T206 Resource classifies it as a "probable no print" on its Sov 350 (forest green) checklist, but "confirmed" with a Sov 350 (forest green) back on its checklist for that individual card. One of those lists obviously is wrong. As previously discussed, neither PSA nor SGC has any record of grading a Sov 350 Clarke (portrait), making it a "no pop."

Could someone from T206 Resource please respond? Who runs that website anyway?

See the Clarke (portrait) player checklist and the Sov 350 (forest green) checklist here:

http://www.t206resource.com/Checklis...ToDetails=True

http://www.t206resource.com/Sovereig...Checklist.html

[HobokenJon]

Apologies for accidentally publishing that last post twice. I've erased the duplicate post.

[Luke]

It looks like maybe the master hasn't been updated in awhile. I scrolled through the Old Mills (just because I know them best) and found 10 or so that are listed as unconfirmed, but do exist and are documented.

[Sean]

The owners of T206resource,com are Tim Cathey and Jim Rivera; both are members here. You can also contact them through the T206resource website.

[HobokenJon]

Originally Posted by Luke

It looks like maybe the master hasn't been updated in awhile. I scrolled through the Old Mills (just because I know them best) and found 10 or so that are listed as unconfirmed, but do exist and are documented.

Agreed. But the difference with this situation is there are "pop zero" cards listed as "confirmed" that probably shouldn't be.

It's fun to find cards that are listed as "possible, not confirmed." It's maddening to try and find cards that are listed authoritatively as "confirmed" when they don't actually exist.

[HobokenJon]

Originally Posted by Sean

The owners of T206resource,com are Tim Cathey and Jim Rivera; both are members here. You can also contact them through the T206resource website.

I have tried to ask questions of the site owners on other occasions before, using the T206 Resource "contact form" page. But I didn't get any responses the last couple of times I did so. So this time I'm crowdsourcing instead. I hope they see this thread and respond for the benefit of everyone in the T206-collecting community.

[HobokenJon]

And I sure would like to hear back again from Ted, too.

Hey Ted, are you out there?

[trdcrdkid]

I have Killian pitching in Sovereign 150, but not 350.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by HobokenJon

Agreed. But the difference with this situation is there are "pop zero" cards listed as "confirmed" that probably shouldn't be.

It's fun to find cards that are listed as "possible, not confirmed." It's maddening to try and find cards that are listed authoritatively as "confirmed" when they don't actually exist.

A card doesn't have to be in the pop reports to be confirmed. In the beginning
PSA didn't put the backs on the flips and/or there could be only raw examples
of a confirmed card.

I picked up this Maloney Broadleaf 350 back in 2012 Raw. At the time it was
already confirmed by t206resource but there were none listed in the pop reports until this one was graded and sold in this years fall REA auction.
Maloney Broadleaf 350.jpg

[HobokenJon]

What you say is true. However, when we know that T206 Resource has posted conflicting data about whether a card is confirmed, that undermines the credibility of all supposed confirmations on the site where the existence of the card hasn't been independently verified by other third parties. Make sense?

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by HobokenJon

What you say is true. However, when we know that T206 Resource has posted conflicting data about whether a card is confirmed, that undermines the credibility of all supposed confirmations on the site where the existence of the card hasn't been independently verified by other third parties. Make sense?

No not really. I don't know if the Cards you pointed out exist or if they're data entry errors but even if they are with the thousands of entries a couple of mistakes doesn't
undermine the credibility of all the confirmations in my eyes. I have confirmed several cards with Tim And Jim (for transparency purposes Jim is a friend of mine)
and they have always asked for front and back scans of the card(s) before confirming them.

When dealing with high volume data I don't believe error free
is a feasible expectation. The pop reports are full of errors.
img059.jpg

[Sean]

They got the "no cap" part right.

[HobokenJon]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hi Geno

I checked out my SOVEREIGN set and my count is 483.

The Chance (red portrait) card with a SOVEREIGN 350 back has been claimed to exist. However, I don't have it; and, I have not seen it.

If anyone on this forum has this card with a SOVEREIGN 350 back, please chime in.

Thanks.


TED Z
.

Originally Posted by Pat R

No not really. I don't know if the Cards you pointed out exist or if they're data entry errors but even if they are with the thousands of entries a couple of mistakes doesn't
undermine the credibility of all the confirmations in my eyes. I have confirmed several cards with Tim And Jim (for transparency purposes Jim is a friend of mine)
and they have always asked for front and back scans of the card(s) before confirming them.

When dealing with high volume data I don't believe error free
is a feasible expectation. The pop reports are full of errors.
Attachment 264152

You patently misstated what I wrote. I didn't say the known errors "undermine the credibility of all the confirmations." I said they undermine
the credibility of all supposed confirmations on T206 Resource where the existence of the card hasn't been independently verified by other third parties. And it's true. If I can see with my own eyes that T206 Resource classifies the Sov 350 forest green Clarke portrait as both "confirmed" and "probable no print" in different places on different checklists, and there's no other evidence that the card exists, that undermines the reliability and credibility of T206 Resource's confirmation of that card and any other purported Sov 350 forest green card for which there is no independent corroboration -- such as the Chance red portrait and the Chesbro.