Why autographs?

[sbfinley]

So recently I finished a collecting goal (Non-Sport related) and was looking for a new project to start up. I turn 30 this year and settled on two long term projects that I hoped to complete in the next ten years. The first goal I made was a list of 250 cards in all sports than I don't own, but an example could be found and would be relatively affordable. There are some $50 cards on the list. There are some $2k cards on the list. I'm comfortable with that goal.

For a secondary goal I decided to make a run at single signed examples (balls and cuts primarily) of all attainable baseball HOF's. I removed guys that I knew would be impossible Joss, Delehanty, Josh Gibson, etc.

So I got to work looking for a good piece/pieces to start with - maybe a Wagner cut or a run of Mantle-Dimaggio-Williams-and Mays SSB's. I couldn't settle on any Auto I found because I kept questioning it over and over. With most cards sets I can tell authenticity from a good clear scan or if possible just holding the card in my hand. With auto's I haven't a clue. Here are my problems with autos.

1. I'm lost.

I read and hear you guys talk about flow and pressure, but when comes to applying those principles it is akin to reading a foreign language.

I know in my head what the majority of top autos should look like and I can easily tell the obvious fakes, but the good fakes might as well be just that - good - because I lack the ability to discern them from legitimate examples. Even further, many times someone will post an example here for an opinion of an auto that looks quite good to me, but is outed by the experts as a horrible forgery.

2. No trust in TPG - Or anyone for that matter.

I don't really have to give examples, just read this board. There are occasions where I see SGC or PSA slab a bad card, but lord you guys out a bad authenticated auto every time you exhale. Additionally, even the so-called experts here seem to disagree about authenticity on a regular basis. If I can't trust myself, who do I trust.

3. I feel like I'm dealing drugs.

It seems that if collectibles were a society, autographs would be the population doing business in a dark alley. No one trusts anyone, the majority of the goods are bad, fighting it is losing battle. I feel like I need a Chechnyan henchman to test the goods before I make a purchase.

4. Your knowledge is like some mythical secret.

From the outside it appears like you guys act like the Skull and Bones Society sometimes. I have no doubt that some people on this board are very knowledgeable about autographs, likely the best in the world, but you often hoard that knowledge. I understand the fear of educating the forgers, but the intricacies of studying signatures almost never appear in print and those who come looking for help often only receive no more than "Its Good" or "Its bad." I remember sending an email to someone I considered an auto expert a few years ago asking about what to look for in Mantle signatures. His reply? "How many 8x10's do you have at your desk?"

5. If 90% of the market is bad, what is the point?

Self-explanatory.

So for all of the autograph collectors on the board, justify my desire to enter this sector of the hobby. Why should I collect autographs?

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by sbfinley

So recently I finished a collecting goal (Non-Sport related) and was looking for a new project to start up. I turn 30 this year and settled on two long term projects that I hoped to complete in the next ten years. The first goal I made was a list of 250 cards in all sports than I don't own, but an example could be found and would be relatively affordable. There are some $50 cards on the list. There are some $2k cards on the list. I'm comfortable with that goal.

For a secondary goal I decided to make a run at single signed examples (balls and cuts primarily) of all attainable baseball HOF's. I removed guys that I knew would be impossible Joss, Delehanty, Josh Gibson, etc.

So I got to work looking for a good piece/pieces to start with - maybe a Wagner cut or a run of Mantle-Dimaggio-Williams-and Mays SSB's. I couldn't settle on any Auto I found because I kept questioning it over and over. With most cards sets I can tell authenticity from a good clear scan or if possible just holding the card in my hand. With auto's I haven't a clue. Here are my problems with autos.

1. I'm lost.

I read and hear you guys talk about flow and pressure, but when comes to applying those principles it is akin to reading a foreign language.

I know in my head what the majority of top autos should look like and I can easily tell the obvious fakes, but the good fakes might as well be just that - good - because I lack the ability to discern them from legitimate examples. Even further, many times someone will post an example here for an opinion of an auto that looks quite good to me, but is outed by the experts as a horrible forgery.

2. No trust in TPG - Or anyone for that matter.

I don't really have to give examples, just read this board. There are occasions where I see SGC or PSA slab a bad card, but lord you guys out a bad authenticated auto every time you exhale. Additionally, even the so-called experts here seem to disagree about authenticity on a regular basis. If I can't trust myself, who do I trust.

3. I feel like I'm dealing drugs.

It seems that if collectibles were a society, autographs would be the population doing business in a dark alley. No one trusts anyone, the majority of the goods are bad, fighting it is losing battle. I feel like I need a Chechnyan henchman to test the goods before I make a purchase.

4. Your knowledge is like some mythical secret.

From the outside it appears like you guys act like the Skull and Bones Society sometimes. I have no doubt that some people on this board are very knowledgeable about autographs, likely the best in the world, but you often hoard that knowledge. I understand the fear of educating the forgers, but the intricacies of studying signatures almost never appear in print and those who come looking for help often only receive no more than "Its Good" or "Its bad." I remember sending an email to someone I considered an auto expert a few years ago asking about what to look for in Mantle signatures. His reply? "How many 8x10's do you have at your desk?"

5. If 90% of the market is bad, what is the point?

Self-explanatory.

So for all of the autograph collectors on the board, justify my desire to enter this sector of the hobby. Why should I collect autographs?

We can't persuade you on what to and not to collect, that's your decision. Don't worry about what others state or say, just remember the golden rule in any hobby, "Collect What You Enjoy!" I personally love autographs and the player/fan connection and the stories behind them. I didn't start because people told me to, I got autographs when I was younger and loved the interaction. But don't forget about that rule, it is your money, not ours. Just truly collect what you want to collect, and do what you enjoy.

Cheers

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by sbfinley

So for all of the autograph collectors on the board, justify my desire to enter this sector of the hobby. Why should I collect autographs?

If you have to ask, you shouldn't collect.

[cubsfan-budman]

I felt similar, but what I've done in the meantime is just collect "cheap" autographs at first, in order to minimize my losses just in case I pick a bad one.

I also narrowed my focus to HOF 2nd basemen and been patient in finding ones from sellers that I trust that are willing to back up the items they sell (basically sticking to B/S/T and Richard & Jim's newsletters).

Basically, don't rush out and buy a Ruth, Mantle or Williams until you know what you need to know to feel confident. I feel that is the biggest mistake I see over and over on this board...folks buying high-end autos before they're really "ready" to be buying them. You either need TONS of money (to absorb bad purchases or buy from an expensive auction house) or TONS of patience and knowledge. I dont have tons of money, so I'm just gathering knowledge before I decide to move on to more expensive stuff.

The reason to collect autographs is simple, in my opinion. Unlike a card, this is an object that has actually been handled by the athlete and heightens the sensation of "nearness" to the signer. You really get a sense of their real personality through their autograph and frankly, a ton of that comes through doing the research necessary to confidently buy their autographs.

Honestly, they're a great companion piece to a nice baseball card collection. As long as you're collecting vintage, you probably use your imagination when looking through your cards, and autographs are a cool addition to that...imagining the signer going through fan mail, or being hounded outside a stadium by kids or sitting at a table at a card show plowing through a long line of fans.

Anyhow, good luck. Start small, keep reading, make friends with smart people and enjoy your hobby.

[packs]

I like autographs because they put you closer to the player. Cards are awesome, but they have no connection to the player depicted on them. Autographs are totally different. Every good item was in the hands of your hero. And if you can get their signature on one of their own cards, even better.

[jgmp123]

Keep in mind that "rare" cards can be faked just as easy as autographs....maybe even easier depending on the autograph.

[sbfinley]

Originally Posted by jgmp123

Keep in mind that "rare" cards can be faked just as easy as autographs....maybe even easier depending on the autograph.

True, but I am comfortable with my opinion when it come to cardboard. There isn't a card in my collection that I ever pause for a moment and question its authenticity. I couldn't even pull the trigger on a single signed Mantle ball, however, and even though I really would like one in my collection I doubt that I would ever be 100% certain about its authenticity unless the way I view autographs changes. I guess that my main issue is that although I want to expand into this region of the hobby, I cannot justify the expense of doing so without more faith in the matter.

[jgmp123]

I get that, but I also feel that if there aren't collectors/sellers that you can trust, then I wouldn't bother with it. I will offer the advice that was given to me a while back to seek out trusted individuals for your collections...That information is completely free and available from a great deal of good people here.

[quinnsryche]

Depending on what media you want to collect the autos on, you could go the signed card route. Cards issued by the big companies (Topps, UD etc. ) are guaranteed and I have never heard anyone say an official auto'd issue is no good. There are many avenues to collect autos with the PSA/DNA sticker affixed which is a pretty good COA these days IMO. Know who you are buying from and educate yourself and you'll likely do ok.

[travrosty]

take your time collecting the autographs, dont rush and buy something you might regret later, forget the big company tpa's, find a couple of dealers you trust, buy from them, i can refer you in a pm in you would like. and enjoy. if 90% are fake, just collect the 10% that are good.

[Leon]

If, and I don't plan on it right now, I were going to collect autographs they would almost solely be on legal documents. I might even go as far as to only collect notarized ones. That might be the only way I could sleep at night. That's just me and I know there are a ton of happy autograph collectors. I am happy they are happy.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Leon

If, and I don't plan on it right now, I were going to collect autographs they would almost solely be on legal documents. I might even go as far as to only collect notarized ones. That might be the only way I could sleep at night. That's just me and I know there are a ton of happy autograph collectors. I am happy they are happy.

We are also masochists.

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by sbfinley

True, but I am comfortable with my opinion when it come to cardboard. There isn't a card in my collection that I ever pause for a moment and question its authenticity. I couldn't even pull the trigger on a single signed Mantle ball, however, and even though I really would like one in my collection I doubt that I would ever be 100% certain about its authenticity unless the way I view autographs changes. I guess that my main issue is that although I want to expand into this region of the hobby, I cannot justify the expense of doing so without more faith in the matter.

How long did it take you to reach that comfort level? Buy the players you feel comfortable authenticating, and on the 'toughies' get an opinion (or purchase ) from someone you trust.

I am getting better at Mantle. It has been a gradual process, over a year at least. (Some have become experts in a few days ) At this point I still wouldn't buy a Mantle on my say so. When someone asks my opinion, it is based on the question "Would I be comfortable buying this?"

[thenavarro]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

If you have to ask, you shouldn't collect.

David hit that nail right on the head. You don't sound like you'd be comfortable collecting autographs, and when you have that doubt in your head, you won't get full enjoyment from an autographed item. When in doubt, sit it out.

To me, the biggest allure I enjoy about collecting autographs, is the belief that the subject personally created that scribble, it's not a mass produced piece of cardboard that the subject had absolutely nothing to do with other then agree to let their likeness be used and in some cases not even that much involvement. Basically, when you have an autograph, you have a small moment of that person's life in your hands. When you have a piece of cardboard, you have a brief moment of a printing press, lithographer, etc,

Not knocking the card guys/gals, just different strokes for different folks.

Mike

[jgmp123]

Originally Posted by thenavarro

David hit that nail right on the head. You don't sound like you'd be comfortable collecting autographs, and when you have that doubt in your head, you won't get full enjoyment from an autographed item. When in doubt, sit it out.

To me, the biggest allure I enjoy about collecting autographs, is the belief that the subject personally created that scribble, it's not a mass produced piece of cardboard that the subject had absolutely nothing to do with other then agree to let their likeness be used and in some cases not even that much involvement. Basically, when you have an autograph, you have a small moment of that person's life in your hands. When you have a piece of cardboard, you have a brief moment of a printing press, lithographer, etc,

Not knocking the card guys/gals, just different strokes for different folks.

Mike

+1

[Frozen in Time]

Collecting anything is a learning experience. For almost all of us, this is a gradual process but one that, in the end, provides as much if not more satisfaction as does any individual item.

Once you have decided what you want to collect, and this should always be based on what really excites and/or interests you, rather than future monetary gains, start the learning process. Read as much as you can, go to shows and physically examine items, talk to various dealers, ask questions and visit this site.

In your case, start with a low-end autograph, view as many as you can, try to compare authentic vs known forgeries, etc. If you follow this type of progression not only will you be more confidant in what you buy but you will have established a growing knowledge base to build upon.

For most of us this is a long-term project and one that continues to present new challenges along the way - but that is precisely where all the fun is!!!

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Deertick

How long did it take you to reach that comfort level? Buy the players you feel comfortable authenticating, and on the 'toughies' get an opinion (or purchase ) from someone you trust.

I am getting better at Mantle. It has been a gradual process, over a year at least. (Some have become experts in a few days ) At this point I still wouldn't buy a Mantle on my say so. When someone asks my opinion, it is based on the question "Would I be comfortable buying this?"

This is my philosophy almost exactly. I'm not interested in Mantle so I haven't attempted to learn his signature, but you can substitute 'Ruth' for 'Mantle', and I'm in the same boat. With Ruth, it's actually gotten worse for me. There was a point where I felt good about my abilities, but given how many seemingly bad ones are deemed 'good' by the experts on this forum, I've lost a bit of confidence.

You can also reduce your risk by going Leon's route, but I don't like the looks of such documents, so I've gone for handwritten letters.

Steve - I also have to feel the same way about my autographed items that I feel about my cards. If I don't, then I get rid of the item.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by Frozen in Time

Collecting anything is a learning experience. For almost all of us, this is a gradual process but one that, in the end, provides as much if not more satisfaction as does any individual item.

Once you have decided what you want to collect, and this should always be based on what really excites and/or interests you, rather than future monetary gains, start the learning process. Read as much as you can, go to shows and physically examine items, talk to various dealers, ask questions and visit this site.

In your case, start with a low-end autograph, view as many as you can, try to compare authentic vs known forgeries, etc. If you follow this type of progression not only will you be more confidant in what you buy but you will have established a growing knowledge base to build upon.

For most of us this is a long-term project and one that continues to present new challenges along the way - but that is precisely where all the fun is!!!

I agree with everything written here. I enjoy the learning aspect of autograph collecting even more than the "actually touched by the person" aspect.

[cottnat]

I'm not sure if I will have much to add that many here have already stated, but I will throw my .02 in.

I am not a huge IP grapher (I have done some shows, some stadium waiting when I was younger and some local signings). I generally don't care to bother guys when they are not intending to sign. Do I have to pay more for some of the autos I want? Yes, because otherwise they are free.

I am like most autograph collectors in that I started out all over the place and narrowed my collection down (for the most part) to autographed baseballs of Hall of Famers. Starting out, I got the guys at Twinsfest that I could get in person (Carew, Killebrew, Molitor). After that, I nabbed a couple guys in the mail that were fairly guaranteed (Nolan Ryan, Doerr). From that point on, I relied on Steiner, UDA, MLB holo, Tristar, Mounted Memories and a few select other instances for the most part. Again, I generally have to pay more for their sticker, but to me, spending an extra 10-50% (or whatever it breaks down to....depends on the player) is well worth having the extra piece of mind. Now, if it were to come out that Steiner has been selling fakes for years, then I would have a nice chunk of my HOF collection that would be considered fakes (although many come with MLB holo as well which is as rock solid as it gets). I, like you, have evolved fairly slowly being able to pick out the good from the bad and I am still learning. If we had a Mantle quiz on this board when I started, I would have gotten 3/10 just from dumb luck. Now, I think I would score in the 5/10 range or better, but it would be with reason.

If you are going to pass the reputable 1st party authenticators, then you are definitely going to have to struggle with your points you made. As far as the gurus on this board, I too would LOVE to know what they know when making opinions on just about everyone, but I understand their hesitation to spill their secrets whether it be to make a gain financially or to withhold their level of knowledge from the scum in the hobby.

At the end of the day, you work hard for your money, so just be happy with what you buy. If it hurts to spend $300 on a ball that you are worried about, don't buy it. At that point you can spend $500 and get one with a UDA hologram or you can just keep waiting for the right opportunity where you are more comfortable. You sometimes have to take stabs in this hobby too which can burn you, or pay off big time. I spent $100 (not huge money, but at the time it was a lot for me) on a Joe Mauer signed jersey off of craigslist thinking, "what a great deal, the jersey alone is worth more than that", only to find out shortly after that the jersey was a knock off and the Mauer autograph was crap. I also more recently purchased a 1927 Yankees baseball for $1,000 and it ended up being legitimate. The point being is that sometimes the thrill of the chase and to find those diamonds in a rough is just as fun, if not more than adding the item to your collection.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by sbfinley

True, but I am comfortable with my opinion when it come to cardboard. There isn't a card in my collection that I ever pause for a moment and question its authenticity. I couldn't even pull the trigger on a single signed Mantle ball, however, and even though I really would like one in my collection I doubt that I would ever be 100% certain about its authenticity unless the way I view autographs changes. I guess that my main issue is that although I want to expand into this region of the hobby, I cannot justify the expense of doing so without more faith in the matter.

Perhaps you want to start off with a niche that's not so prone to forgeries. I went through Negro League autos and currently seek out WWII players. These aspects of baseball history are very interesting to me, and although I usually just hear crickets when I post my finds -- even from the die-hard, obscure collectors! -- I still get the thrill of the chase without usually having to reach too far into my wallet.

Plus, and I'm sure I'm being naive here, my risk of owning forgeries is far less than most. Is it possible my Lee Moody or Moe Burtschy balls are fake? I guess so, but even if they are, I'm not out much. (And I'd almost have to commend a forger who took the time to learn those sigs and had the patience to wait for me to come along!)

Ken