Joe Mauer announces retirement: HOF? Make Your Case:

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by KMayUSA6060

How the hell are we putting Mauer and Posada in the same discussion, with some people putting Posada above Mauer?

Mauer won 3 batting titles, WAS A LEAGUE MVP, 6x All Star, amassed 2123 hits in 15 years (1858 games), and played for the same team his entire career - something that will be taken into consideration with today's free agency climate.

Is Posada as highly thought of without the Yankees component? 500 less hits with 2 additional seasons, I don't consider him to have significant "power" with 275 HRs, and I think he largely benefited from the NYY factor in regards to his popularity.

I like Posada, and he was a good catcher, but hitting the ball is one of the biggest parts of the game and Mauer was consistently one of the best throughout his career. It's not the Hall of HRs.

I think Mauer is a late-ballot Hall of Famer.

His stats don't jump out as being truly great. Not enough for the Hall.

He had one Hall of Fame worthy season, in 2009. He was the MVP that year and won the batting title with an impressive .365/.444/.587.

He had another noteworthy season, in 2006, with an elite .347 average. Another batting title.

His third batting title came in 2008, when he hit .328. He won that batting title by sheer luck with such a low average. A well earned batting title is usually in the .330 range, pushing .340.

The rest of his career was average.

Average players shouldn't make the Hall of Fame.

If Larry Walker doesn't make the HOF, Mauer shouldn't either. Walker had better career stats and also won 1 MVP and 3 batting titles.

[nolemmings]

"His third batting title came in 2008, when he hit .328. He won that batting title by sheer luck with such a low average."

What a moronic statement. Sheer luck my ass. He finished second in offensive WAR and fourth in MVP, was that by luck? Was that well deserved? No one else was hurt--he finished ahead of Mags, Ichiro, Hamilton and the rest who won in other years.

Again, he was a catcher. ZERO catchers have won a batting title in the A.L. except for Mauer. Posey, Hargrave and Lombardi are the only other catchers to ever win one, with Lombardi doing it twice. BTW, Mauer also finished second, third and fourth in BA in other seasons. And his .365 avg in 2009 has not been topped since-- in either league.

I am a lifelong Yankee fan and Posada was one of my favorite players, but the comparison with Mauer isn't even close. One can only wonder how many HRs Joe would have hit in New York if he was able to develop his swing for the short porch and not the tall Hefty Bag wall of the Metrodome, which led him to focus on driving the ball the other way. He had nearly 50 more doubles and 20 more triples than Jorge, so he was hardly powerless. And the difference in defense between the two was substantial.

I predict Joe will go into the HOF on the second or third try.

[nolemmings]

Forgot to mention: Congrats to Joe and Maddie Mauer, who celebrate the birth of their third child and first son, Charles Joseph Mauer. Fantastic post-season award for Joe!

[packs]

You keep talking about his batting titles but he won those within the first 5 seasons of his career. He was pretty pedestrian after even with a few more 300 seasons. I don't think his peak surpassed Nomar's and Nomar is nowhere near the HOF. Nomar won 2 batting titles while playing a premium position. It was equally rare for Nomar to win an AL title as a shortstop. Only A-rod had won at the position before, unless I'm mistaken.

But Nomar isn't a serious contender for the HOF. Joe Mauer was a catcher. What he did with his bat was unusual but except for one single season, never otherworldly.

Piazza changed the position with his bat, as did Campanella and Pudge. Joe Mauer had a nice average but still only hit 306 over his career. I don't see that getting you into the HOF.

[Pat R]

All the debate and no cards.

Here are a few of his T206 rookie cards.
Mauer.jpg

[nolemmings]

"Mauer was a fake catcher. More than half of his games were at positions other than catcher."

More idiocy. He put up his numbers as a catcher. He could have been hit by a bus after the 2010 season and we would be talking about his numbers as a catcher. Had he put up his "pedestrian" remaining seasons as a catcher he still would have shone as a catcher. A real one-- gold glover and defensive stud who could throw out baserunners and frame pitches; cf. Jorge Posada.

Ernie Banks played fewer games at shortstop than at 1b, although he won 2 MVPs and was an All-Star in eight seasons at short. Is he a HOF first baseman?

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Again, he was a catcher.

Mauer was a fake catcher. More than half of his games were at positions other than catcher.

Originally Posted by nolemmings

And his .365 avg in 2009 has not been topped since-- in either league.

It hasn't even been 10 years. Not saying .365 isn't impressive, but it doesn't get him in the Hall.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

His third batting title came in 2008, when he hit .328. He won that batting title by sheer luck with such a low average.

I'm sorry, but this statement is really ignorant. Hey, Carl Yastrzemski won the batting title in 1968 hitting .301 a year after he won the Triple Crown. Just luck, right?

Forget the fact that he was the only man in the entire American League to hit .300. The second place finisher, Danny Carter, hit .290.

Maybe Mauer's .328 AVG was a bit low because the pitching in the AL that year was that good?

Christian Yelich won the batting title this year hitting .326. He was lucky, too, right? Nevermind he was two home runs, and 1 RBI shy of the first Triple Crown in the National League in over 80 years!

Context is needed in evaluating statistics. Clearly you don't get it.

[packs]

I think there is room for saying some people do have bad luck sometimes. Posada hit 338 in 2007 but he happened to do that while Magglio Ordonez inexplicably hit 363. If Posada won that title, would he be a HOFer?

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by packs

I think there is room for saying some people do have bad luck sometimes. Posada hit 338 in 2007 but he happened to do that while Magglio Ordonez inexplicably hit 363. If Posada won that title, would he be a HOFer?

Posada finished fourth that year in BA, so Ordonez was not his only "bad luck". Ordonez is also a lifetime .300 hitter, making his 2007 season not so inexplicable. What is far more inexplicable is Posada's .338 average--the only season he topped even .290 and 65 points higher than his lifetime BA. Had anyone else finished second to him that year, they would have a far better argument for bad luck. In contrast, Mauer hitting anywhere over .300 is pretty "explicable".

[packs]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Posada finished fourth that year in BA, so Ordonez was not his only "bad luck". Ordonez is also a lifetime .300 hitter, making his 2007 season not so inexplicable. What is far more inexplicable is Posada's .338 average--the only season he topped even .290 and 65 points higher than his lifetime BA. Had anyone else finished second to him that year, they would have a far better argument for bad luck. In contrast, Mauer hitting anywhere over .300 is pretty "explicable".

Hold yourself to your own standards though. Ordonez hit 43 points higher than he'd ever hit before that year too. And answer the question: if Posada lucks out on a batting title in 2007, is he a HOFer?

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by packs

Hold yourself to your own standards though. Ordonez hit 43 points higher than he'd ever hit before that year too. And answer the question: if Posada lucks out on a batting title in 2007, is he a HOFer?

The question is pointless, because he was nowhere near the batting title. He finished fourth. Shave another twenty points off of Mags' BA and he still finished ahead of Posada's one-year wonder. And did I mention, that would still leave Posada fourth, and more than ten points behind #2 Ichiro.

So to flip the question, if Mauer leapfrogs over not three players (like Posada) but one in 2013 and two in 2010, then he has five batting titles. Would that be enough for you to consider him a HOFer?

Despite what my posts might suggest, I do not like even somewhat dissing Jorge Posada, who was one of my favorite players for the greatest sports franchise in the USA. But he isn't even the best Yankee catcher not in the HOF-- that would be the Captain--and an argument can be made that he was no better than Ellie Howard either, who won an MVP and who could play the position. Without even crunching other catcher careers, it is easy to say Posada was not as good as Ted Simmons, and really was not better than Lance Parrish. So no, he is not a HOFer.

[packs]

I guess the issue here is that I don't see so much separation between the HOF cases for Mauer and Posada. They were both able to do unique things with their bats at the position. So, if you think Mauer winning batting titles makes him a HOF catcher, I'd also call the best offensive catcher of his era (Posada) a HOFer too. The only catchers with bats to match were Pudge and Piazza, both known cheaters.

I only brought up 2007 because Posada put up a high average as a catcher and didn't win. But even if he did I don't think that makes him more of a HOFer than he already was. Whereas you might say "no one has done this before" in terms of Mauer's batting titles, I would say "no one hit like" in terms of Posada's bat.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by packs

I think there is room for saying some people do have bad luck sometimes. Posada hit 338 in 2007 but he happened to do that while Magglio Ordonez inexplicably hit 363. If Posada won that title, would he be a HOFer?

Nope.

Cecil Cooper hit .352 in 1980. Normally, that's a good bet to win the batting title. Unfortunately for him, George Brett decided to hit .390.