PSA 10 1951 Bowman Mantle Sold

[Archive]

Posted By: Rich

Private transaction...

http://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com/latest/hobby-history-1951-bowman-mantle-sold-for-600k.html

[Archive]

Posted By: fkw

Good money for a guy who only had four 100 RBI season in his career. Along with only two season with over 23 HRs after his 30th Birthday.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jason L

Mickey Mantle is by far the most overrated baseball player in the history of the game.

[Archive]

Posted By: Paul S

Memory Lane and PSA? Hmmm.....

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

1st.....Did either of you actually see Mantle play during the 1950's and 1960-62 ? ?

I would guess you didn't....otherwise, irregardless of what teams you favored, you would not say what you said.

I closely followed the Yankees from 1947 to 1962. Mantle could do everything at bat and on the field. He had
the most spacious centerfield to cover. He was the fastest in the AL to get to 1st base....3.0 secs. And, I don't
even have to go into detail on the tremendous distance that he could drive a baseball. He was "Mr Excitement"
to us kids who followed him back then.

But, the most significant part of his game was the clutch hits he got to win games for the Yankees. Especially,
in World Series play.

His numbers out of a BB encyclopedia, although better than many in the HOF, do not really tell the story.

You had to see him play....day in and day out....from ages 19 to 31, he was amazing.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: DD

I totally agree that he was overrated. I have maintained this stance for a long time. Having lived in New York for 40 years, it was very difficult to find any Yankee fan that was objective enough to see the light. Yes, I know about his WS records, blah blah blah. Not saying he doesn't deserve some accolades (how could you), but his larger than life persona, playing for the Yankees, and his personal struggles I feel overshadow the fact that he was the 3rd best centerfielder in NY during the 50's.

In addition, he wasn't even the best player on his own team. I would take Yogi Berra, his defensive prowess, and his 7 consecutive top 3 MVP finishes (including 3 MVP's to Mickey's 1) over Mantle.

[Archive]

Posted By: Anthony N.

Can someone that had a season like Mantle did in '56 really be overrated?

[Archive]

Posted By: Jim VB

I'm an objective Yankee fan, albeit a couple of years younger than Ted (not too many).

Saying Mantle was the 3rd best centerfielder in NY is ridiculous. (Even as a kid, I thought he was 2nd though. Mays was damn good.) Snider, as good as he was, wasn't close to either of them. Or did you mean Richie Ashburn when he played for the Mets in 1962?

By the way, Mantle also won three MVP's, not one.

He had a 10 year stretch (1955-1964) where he had 3 firsts, 3 seconds and 2 fifth place MVP finishes. Equally as impressive as Yogi's stretch.

Had he not played most of his career with terrible knees, he might have been the greatest ever... (except, as I said... that Mays guy was pretty good.)

[Archive]

Posted By: Anthony N.

And had he taken care of himself instead of drinking so heavily he might have been the greatest ever.

In regards to the original topic, I agree with Paul S. Anything from Memory Lane should be looked at with a lot of skepticism. He didn't do 2 years in jail for jaywalking.

[Archive]

Posted By: DD

For the MVP's, I meant in the 50's. Granted, I forgot about 1957; still leaves Yogi 3-2. If you think Mantle was a better hitter than Snider, than I think objectivity is out the window. Who had the most home runs out of anyone in the 50's? Snider also drove in 190 more runs than Mantle in the 50's. Even if you take out 1950 for Snider, he still drove in more runs. Snider also had a better career fielding percentage. And also, more hits in the 50's (also not counting 1950).

[Archive]

Posted By: Anthony N.

DD- do you think that fielding % is overrated? Is there a way to gather the fielding range as well as %? Sort of like OBP + Slugging?

[Archive]

Posted By: Paul S

I could never figure out the reasoning of making the turning of a decade a kind of cutoff point. Players come up at different times, ride their crest a different times, have a subsequent resurgent year or get injured for a season, etc. A decade is too arbitrary a marker, I think.

[Archive]

Posted By: DD

Fielding is overrated. Even so, Snider still topped Mantle. As far as the decade comparison, I was using Mantle's best decade as comparison. Even overall, there are many better than Mantle. His status not only in the hobby, but in baseball lore, is overstated.

[Archive]

Posted By: Anthony N.

Why do you feel that fielding is overrated? If you scratch out 1 single every 3 AB's you're a star, but in one play an outfielder can easily prevent a run.
I"m not necessarily disputing the premise that Mantle is overrated- he was certainly one of the all time greats, but feel his stature (like many others) was increased at least a bit by the locale of his team.
All things considered I'd often prefer to see a spectacular play in the field than a solid hit.

[Archive]

Posted By: DD

Anthony,
A fielder can change the course of a few games, but not in comparison to hitting, obviously. If you include arm strength as part of fielding, I personally then give it more weight. Everyone knocks Manny for his poor fielding, but no one complained about him leading the league in assists.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jason L

I thought that might start something.

No, Ted, I didn't see him play, as he was before my time. I respect your opinions and your perspective on this.

Everyone, I didn't say he wasn't talented. It is obvious he was one of the best. I think that when you acknowledge his place in history and the stats, etc,....he belongs in most of the conversations, no doubt.

But the attention he receives is quite disproportionate to his accomplishments, as far as I've ever been able to figure out. Perhaps I can't figure it out simply because of the very fact that I was not growing up in NYC during the 50s...I don't get the mystique

So from a collector's standpoint, what is everyone's thought on whether or not Mantle's cards will hold their HUGE premium after his generation of fans pass on?


I'm sure my sons' generation is going to say the same thing about MJ!

[Archive]

Posted By: Todd Schultz

You didn't have to be from or in New York to see how great he was and how highly he was regarded. I grew up in Minnesota in the 60's. Mantle was idolized there as well, even in the face of pretty good Twins teams and with his talents waning as his legs betrayed him. His contemporaries could almost sound like schoolboys in their praise, and I believe the opinions of these stars is a strong endorsement of his greatness.

I only got to see him play 3-4 times, but can remember how it seemed everybody in the stands stirred and paid particular attention when he came up to bat, like they knew they were watching something they might never see again. My father, a life-long Dodger fan and ardent Yankee hater, could only muster occasional weak and passing criticism of #7. I believe my memories aren't different from those of many (probably most) baseball fans of the era.

Will his popularity survive another couple of generations? I vote absolutely.

[Archive]

Posted By: dennis

mantle: he was the most famous player of his time, he was the best player on the best team in baseball from 1952 thru 1964. in that time frame the yankees won the AL pennant every year but 1954 & 1959. he was the fastest player in the league and the most powerful from both sides of the plate. he played one of the most demanding positions in the game and he was an all-star every year. the b.james hall of fame monitor ranks him as the #14 hitter of all time. boy this guy was really over rated.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Buck O'Neil was once asked by a sports reporter who was the best ballplayer he had seen play the game.

Buck said...."Mantle was great and would have been the best, if it wasn't for his injuries".

Some would argue with Buck's opinion.....but, he was there at the ball field and saw it all.

T-Rex TED

[Archive]

Posted By: Neal Kane

Mantle overrated? Puh-leeze.

Not going to go into numbers/etc as they have been discussed already but here is another fact - Mickey Mantle cards are THE FACE OF THE HOBBY. He will most likely still be so in another 25 years. The Wagner will always be up there, but when it comes to vintage cards of the 50's, what collector would not want a Mantle ... or Mantles.

I am a huge Snider fan and always felt that he was underrated. Hard to imagine that he had to wait as long as he did for HOF entry.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jim VB

You would be hard pressed to complain about any of those three guys (Mantle, Mays, Snider) in your outfield. Mays always made everything look so smooth and easy that many thought he wasn't even trying (He was.) Plus there was still some racial bias that played into how Mays was treated. Mantle's personality, especially early Mantle, made him a media and fan darling for his career and beyond. Snider was doomed to finish third to those guys.

Plus the Yankees had surrounded Mantle with a team that was unmatched. From 1950-1963 (14 years), Yankee players won 10 AL MVP awards and it was spread over 5 different players. They, and Mantle, were winners first and foremost.

But very few people, not the sportswriters of that day, not the fans, not Bill James, think Snider was better than Mantle. You could make a case for Mays, but not Snider.

[Archive]

Posted By: DD

We have vehement disagreement.

Next up - Ted Williams or Joe Dimaggio. Yankee fans to the left, Yankee haters and Sox fans to the right.

[Archive]

Posted By: Eric

So outside of the famed HONUS WAGNER card.... the 52 topps mantle is the next most recognized card in the hobby....

do you believe that it shouldn't be?

[Archive]

Posted By: Jim VB

"We have vehement disagreement."


Disagreement? Yes. Vehement? Not so much.




"Next up - Ted Williams or Joe Dimaggio. Yankee fans to the left, Yankee haters and Sox fans to the right."

Yankee fan (and Red Sox hater) or not, I have to go with Teddy on that one. Even if he was a jerk.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jim VB

"So outside of the famed HONUS WAGNER card.... the 52 topps mantle is the next most recognized card in the hobby....

do you believe that it shouldn't be?"



I've never understood why it is so revered. It wasn't his rookie. It was actually double printed and is, therefore, more common than most of the other '52 Topps high numbers. But it's always been the most valuable card in the set.

I don't even question that ALL of Mantle's cards are overvalued. If we're trying to draw a connection between playing ability and card value... my answer is Mantle (the player) isn't overrated, but his cards are overvalued. Two different point, however.

[Archive]

Posted By: DD

I agree about Ted. Jerk or not, he was an American hero, and the greatest hitter of all time.

[Archive]

Posted By: marty q

ted w couldn't shine joe d's shoe's as far as being a complete ball player!!! hitter yes he was better, not by much, and his american heroism is great, but that is not the discussion is it? joe d any day! being that the thread was hijacked already by somebody it must be ok to post this.

[Archive]

Posted By: DD

Wow, an overstatement if I ever heard one. Ted outshines Joe D in every category with the exception of his wife was better looking, he was jealous of his wife, and if the stories of domestic abuse are true, well, that just adds to his noteriety.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

DD......"We have vehement disagreement."......mellow out, guy.

I saw all three play during the '50s an throughout the '60s. And, although I've always been a
Yankee fan, I enjoyed watching all of them play. I had no favorites, in their individualistic ways
they had different styles of play. That added to the enjoyment of the game in enormous ways.

Same goes for Joe DiMaggio and Ted Williams. When Ted would hit HR's into the RF upper deck
of Yankee Stadium, I was a happy kid. Hey....his name was TED, so I cheered for him. As, I al-
ways knew the Yankees would win at the end of the season, anyhow.

Now, why is the 52T Mantle card so popular. It goes back to the late 1970's when the hobby
was just starting to get popular. There was a monthly BB card price guide called Card Prices
Update (CPU). It only covered post-war cards with special emphasis on the Topps cards. The
1951 Bowman Mantle wasn't even recognized as his real 1st card. Topps Mantle and Rose cards
were being hyped and this CPU guide was fostering the hype. Meanwhile, the 51B Mantle was
valued at only $100.

About the same time (1980) an auction in Philadelphia sold three 52T Mantles for an unprece-
dented amount of $10,000. This was publicized on the front page of the Philadelphia Inquirer.
From then on, the rest is history in this hobby regarding the "mystique" of this Mantle card.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: DD

Ted,
Take your own mellow out advice as well. Vehement disagreement is just another way of saying that everyone has their own opinion. I've seen you get more up in arms about a theoretical non-existent 5th color pass on cards, even when the expert you asked to chime in said it was only a four color process.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

What seems to be your problem ? ?

Lately, most of your posts with many of us on this forum seem to be very "aggressive".

That's not the style or intent of most Net54er's, who post or initiate threads on this forum.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: DD

I don't have a problem Ted. Not sure what you mean by aggressive? I posted in the unopened packs thread, re-read all of them, and find nothing wrong. As far as the rare cards thread, I was trying to keep with the theme, and had some questions about some of the more common cards, at least when it comes to rarity, that you had indicated.

In this thread, I am just voicing my opinion. No one can say one way or the other who is better.

If anyone is aggressive, it is you. It seems to me anytime someone has a question that could contradict some article you wrote 25 years ago, or some color misprint, your writing becomes slightly hostile. Even in the face of evidence, such as the 4 color printing printing process, you still refute it.

If I recall correctly, I am not the first one to take issue with your style either. Didn't you say you were leaving the forum awhile ago because of some conflict with another member?

None of my posts are meant to be personal to another board member. If you are interpreting it that way, I suggest you consider that my motivation is not meant towards anyone, particularly someone I have never met.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

You seem to be stuck on this......"4-color printing process"......you keep repeating it.

Well if you do a search you will see that I described this aspect of color printing a while back.

Here's my Thread from 2 years ago......

http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1137446146/

And, here is an excerpt from it.......

"All the way back to 19th Century Lithography printing,
a 4 - color process is employed to create all the various
colors. The inks used in this process are Yellow, Magenta,
Cyan (blue), and Black. So, each card (or sheets of cards)
go thru 4 inking passes in order to produce the completed
cards."

Back in the late 19th Century color printing was done with a 6 - color process. In the past 50 years
its been refined to just 4 - colors. And, there is no reason not to believe that a 5 - color process was
employed in the interim.

The discussion that I had....that you are stuck on....was with Joe D and he is willing to examine my Leaf
cards at the forthcoming Reading Show to make a final determination. This was a friendly discussion be-
tween Joe D and I.....and, why you have to insinuate yourself into it and make a "federal case" of it, tells
us that it's you with of problem.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: DD

Ted,
My understanding is private discussions are not usually posted in a public forum.

Anyway, I'm going to let this go.

[Archive]

Posted By: marty

" Ted outshines Joe D in every category"...lol....hysterical!! who has the overstatement now!!! david-davis dont know you until this post, but let me guess,? i might be wrong but are you a sox fan? you are also clueless!! did you ever see the clip where ted himself says joe was a better runner fielder and was unmatched in his abilty to play the game? yes i am a yankee fan, but i am not biased, ted was a better hitter, but thats where it ends, why i would do this with you after you are making a claim for manny ramirez, thats a bigger laugh than your other claim, your right. besides being a classless jerk towards ownership and the media and also the fans, ted was the best!! seems you like to voice your opinion, but someone calls you on it you get bent, (see the ted z posts above for proof). have a good night, and yes ted was better than ruth and gehrig also, feel better?

[Archive]

Posted By: DD

Not getting bent Marty; just trying to avoid additional conflict. I can agree to disagree, and also let go whatever I got involved in with Ted. It just became pointless to continue.

But since you chimed in, no, I am not a Sox fan. So you agree Ted was a better hitter, but not a better player than Dimaggio? More Yankee fan rhetoric.

"Somewhere in the Bronx a little boy born in 2001 is wondering if the Yankees will win a World Series in his lifetime." - Bill Simmons mailbag

[Archive]

Posted By: Fred Y

Frank, you sure know how to stir it up when it comes to Mantle!

Count me in w/ Ted, Jim, Todd and the others who believe Mantle was a million miles from being called "over-rated"!

I also grew up in the late '40's & during the complete Yankee-Mantle era. He was my boyhood idol and NO player could make the hairs on the back of your neck stand up like when Mickey came to the plate!

Had God given Mantle the good legs of Mays, he certainly would have played the 22 yrs that Mays got in as opposed to the 18, sometimes very partial yrs, that he did. There is also no doubt he would have passed Mays in ALMOST every statistical category!

Everyone marvels at Mays & his defensive skills, accentuated by his "catch" in the '54 WS, but how many remember the "catch" Mantle made to save Don Larsen's perfect game?

All said & done, Mays has the edge on paper, but NOT in hearts of America!

[Archive]

Posted By: Anthony N.

Suddenly this board is starting to sound as contentious and petty as the vintage board.
C'mon guys, have some fun! We're arguing about ghosts!

[Archive]

Posted By: sagard

By most accounts Mantle was given the legs of Mays. Only he hurt his knee as a young man and reportedly had a lifestyle that most can't keep up.

Good for whoever shelled out the $600K. You only live once and if the card is as good as the grade on the flip more power to him. If those corners aren't perfect under magnification than I'm thinking he should have settled on a nine.

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

I agree with Anthony. You guys settle down a bit.....it's all fun and we are all friends. If you don't be careful I will let Peter C come over here...

[Archive]

Posted By: dennis

leon now that is a threat that no one should ignore!

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Forget about how good Mickey Mantle is for a minute--what do you guys think of $600,000 for the card???!!!

[Archive]

Posted By: Anthony N.

Given the sellers past legal history and the fact that it was a private sale I"m inclined to view it with a lot of skepticism.
Has this card always been a PSA 10? Was it in any other holder prior to its current one? Provenance?

[Archive]

Posted By: dennis

i know it is a condition rarity,but $600.000.00 for a card that is in fact really common,i think if it were me and i had that kind of $$$ i would wait till it or its equal went to auction. now ,if it were me w/my current income i would buy a house, a new car,pay off my credit cards and put my daughter thru college and still have some $$ left over.

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

If this is a real sale, its a staggering number.

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Anthony,

Did you hear what I heard--pretty interesting.

Jim

[Archive]

Posted By: Paul

I am stunned by the selling price. I own a 51 Mantle. It's in a very nice VG-Ex condition. I am very happy with it. What's it worth? Maybe 2 or 3K? What value would I place on owning this PSA10 version instead? If I couldn't sell it, maybe 500 bucks tops. I'm probably in the minority on that. But an extra $597,000? That's just lunacy to me. I'd much rather have two or three hundred 51 Mantles, not to mention things like the Just So Cy Young, a Baltimore Ruth, or a few dozen E107 Hall of Famers.

I am pleased to see, however, that this card may actually be overtaking the 52 Topps Mantle. To me, the fascination with that non-rookie "rookie" card is even more bizarre.

[Archive]

Posted By: Rob Scales

Williams may have been a better hitter, but he doesn't have a 56 game hitting streak -- probably the most impressive of all baseball records.

[Archive]

Posted By: marty

hi jim, you asked "Forget about how good Mickey Mantle is for a minute--what do you guys think of $600,000 for the card???!!!"

my humble opinion- what as a$$!! you probably could buy almost 30 psa 8 examples of the same for that money! this is bragging rights thats it! somebody has to much money and wants superstar recognition in the hobby, for me it's the opposite, you could buy dozens of nice psa 7-8 pre war cards for that moronic price. the playing field on just spending 20k on a card is thin!! let alone 600k!! i am not impressed one bit, now most people that hold an 8 think there card is worth twice as much, thats the problem. this is an individual ego thing. it can't be an investment??

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Your......"-- probably the most impressive of all baseball records"......certainly distinguishes Joe D from the rest.
I think this record will be not be broken. I recall when Pete Rose tied Tommy Holmes for 44 consecutive games,
but I think Rose was stopped shortly after.

DiMaggio was a very patient batter and most of these current hitters really don't know how to work a pitcher....
they are too "anxious". Furthermore, taking steroids wont help them running a batting streak, either.

I believe DiMaggio was able to sustain his phenomenal hitting streak, despite the day in and day out pressure, be-
cause he had been there before; and, he knew how to endure it....he ran a 66-game hitting streak, playing for the
SF Seals.

TED Z