1865 Elysian Fields artwork....perhaps the first significant BaseBall collectible.

[tedzan]

While the experts in another thread are currently debating which BB card was first, I consider this 1865 Currier & Ives lithograph
of Elysian Fields (23" x 15" picture) one of the very first BaseBall "Art-i-facts" (excuse the pun). It's the centerpiece in my office,
surrounded by my various uncut sheets (1927 to 1961 BB & FB cards).

The first organized game of BB was played on June 19, 1846 in this ballpark in Hoboken, New Jersey.





…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………… ………………………………………………………….… a young V Henry Chadwick




TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Baseball Rarities]

Awesome image Ted. Here is a great article by John Thorn about it:

https://ourgame.mlblogs.com/unraveli...y-b443c0541c96

[hcv123]

Would love to see shots of the office! Sounds awesome.

Howard

[commishbob]

That's nothing short of amazing. A 154-year-old piece of baseball history! Like Howard, I'd love to see a photo of the rest of the office wall.





btw...I was going to just post a wisecrack about it being a shot of the last time Chris Davis had a hit but that seemed somehow sacrilegious.

[MVSNYC]

I lived on that very plot of land, for 5 years. Maxwell Place (condos) right on the waterfront in Hoboken, overlooking NYC.

[Billyscards]

I have the Harpers Weekly 1859 woodcut framed in my basement!

[dbrown]

This makes me think of the slightly earlier lithographic from the civil war prison camp, published in 1863. Not the same reach as Currier & Ives but according to the Smithsonian writeup, it was a good seller. Is there an earlier widely published image that centers on the game?

https://sabr.org/gamesproj/game/july...l-war-pow-game

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by dbrown

This makes me think of the slightly earlier lithographic from the civil war prison camp, published in 1863. Not the same reach as Currier & Ives but according to the Smithsonian writeup, it was a good seller. Is there an earlier widely published image that centers on the game?

https://sabr.org/gamesproj/game/july...l-war-pow-game

That Civil War print IMO is one of the most underappreciated and undervalued items of baseball memorabilia of which I am aware. Besides being a gorgeous image, it is historically very significant because it is an accurate portrayal of how baseball became popular in the south. I have been told (though I do not posses the expertise to confirm it) that it depicts actual people, including the artist.

As to the question of whether there are earlier widely published images that centers on the game, the answer is yes -- in the form of sheet music. The two most spectacular that come to mind are the Live Oak Polka (1860) and the Home Run Quick Step (1861).

[oldjudge]

Ted-I assume that is a reprint. Is that correct?

[tedzan]

Hi Jay

My Elysian Fields picture is a print of the original Currier & Ives Litho (1866) by the Sidney Z. Lucas gallery in NYC (circa 1930's).







TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[oldjudge]

Hi Ted! I figured it was a later print. The originals are virtually impossible to find.

[dbrown]

Those sheet music examples are great, had not seen them before.

Also new to me as I looked around this afternoon, a political Currier & Ives print from 1860 featuring Abe Lincoln:



https://collections.library.nd.edu/2...club-base-ball

[barrysloate]

Corey- if I remember correctly, the artist put himself in three different places in the Civil War print. If you look closely you can find all three.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Corey- if I remember correctly, the artist put himself in three different places in the Civil War print. If you look closely you can find all three.

That's my recollection as well.

[tedzan]

I discovered this "oldie-but-goodie" in a quaint Antique shop in the New Jersey Pine Barrens about 12 years ago. This Harper's Weekly original
print is almost 150 years old and is in fantastic condition.

As most of you know, the Cincinnati Red Stockings were the first Major League team. In 1869 they were undefeated in all 21 games. To honor
their home team, the Cincinnati Lumber Company crafted a 27-ft long bat with the inscriptions of the "First Nine" players.








TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[oldjudge]

Originally Posted by tedzan

I discovered this "oldie-but-goodie" in a quaint Antique shop in the New Jersey Pine Barrens about 12 years ago. This Harper's Weekly original
print is almost 150 years old and is in fantastic condition.

As most of you know, the Cincinnati Red Stockings were the first Major League team. In 1869 they were undefeated in all 21 games. To honor
their home team, the Cincinnati Lumber Company crafted a 27-ft long bat with the inscriptions of the "First Nine" players.








TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Ted--Please stick to T206s. The 1869 Red Stockings were purportedly the first openly professional team. The "major leagues" didn't start until 1871 with the formation of the National Association. The Red Stocking's record in 1869 was 57-0.

Jay

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Ted--Please stick to T206s. The 1869 Red Stockings were purportedly the first openly professional team. The "major leagues" didn't start until 1971 with the formation of the National Association. The Red Stocking's record in 1869 was 67-0.

Jay

Hey Jay

For starters....why don't you get the year straight.....1871

I already noted that regarding the National Association when I posted my Troy Haymakers scorecards.

Perhaps you need to put on some "rose colored glasses"


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hey Jay

For starters....why don't you get the year straight.....1871

I already noted that regarding the National Association when I posted my Troy Haymakers scorecards.

Perhaps you need to put on some "rose colored glasses"


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Wow! Ted calling out Jay! Talk about Battle of the Titans!


I'm humbled by the 'weighty' exchange.


.

[oldjudge]

Ted-Mine was an obvious typo. Yours were blatant errors that could mislead those unfamiliar with early baseball history.

[tedzan]

Hey Jay

I'm very well aware that the Red Stockings won 57 games (lost none) in 1869.

The 21 undefeated games I noted were their record as of the date the "Big Bat" was presented to them in July 1869. As stated in
the Harper's Weekly clipping I posted.

Also, I made note (in another thread) regarding the National Association in 1871 was the actual start of "Major League" baseball.


Look, I didn't care for your snarky comment in that other thread about my positive comments regarding Mickey Mantle.

You apparently don't think much of him, and that's your prerogative.

I followed his career from 1952 - 1961. I watched him play (via TV or at Yankee Stadium) many times. And, that's how I base my
fondness for him.
You had to see him play to appreciate him.

Did you see him play during those years ?

Because if you did you would have a different opinion of him. Along with guys like Ted Williams, Jackie Robinson, Willie Mays, etc.,
Mantle was the most exciting player in BB during that period..



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[oldjudge]

Ted-I grew up in the Bronx within walking distance of Yankee Stadium. I probably saw Mantle play in person over 100 times, so my impressions are not anecdotal. I loved Berra and Skowron who I thought were clutch players. I always felt that too often in big situations Mantle struck out. Outside of baseball Mantle was a boozer and womanizer. On multiple levels, he is not the kind of player or person to idolize.
BTW, anything nice you want to say about Whitey Ford I would back up 100%. He was one of the greatest pitchers I ever saw and is and was a wonderful person off the field. He has the second lowest career ERA since the live ball era began in 1920. One of the biggest mistakes in Yankee history was not pitching Ford in game 7 of the 1960 World Series. This was after Ford had already pitched two complete game shutouts. The move also got Stengel fired.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Ted-I grew up in the Bronx within walking distance of Yankee Stadium. I probably saw Mantle play in person over 100 times, so my impressions are not anecdotal. I loved Berra and Skowron who I thought were clutch players. I always felt that too often in big situations Mantle struck out. Outside of baseball Mantle was a boozer and womanizer. On multiple levels, he is not the kind of player or person to idolize.
BTW, anything nice you want to say about Whitey Ford I would back up 100%. He was one of the greatest pitchers I ever saw and is and was a wonderful person off the field. He has the second lowest career ERA since the live ball era began in 1920. One of the biggest mistakes in Yankee history was not pitching Ford in game 7 of the 1960 World Series. This was after Ford had already pitched two complete game shutouts. The move also got Stengel fired.

Jay

As a young kid, I do not think you knew what Mickey's private life was really like. Therefore, I ask you this......every time Mickey came to bat, were you rooting for Mickey to hit
one of those "500-foot HRs" which he was very capable of doing ?
Furthermore, you are a great fan of Whitey Ford, whereas he and Billy Martin and Mantle really enjoyed the "night-life". I don't get where you're coming from.

Anyhow, here's my story. I had quite a number of conversations with Yogi Berra and Phil Rizzuto over the years. Rizzuto lived 2 blocks away from where I grew up in Hillside, NJ.
Phil would often visit us kids on Monday nights at the CYO (Catholic Youth Organization). He would "hold court"....we would listen to his stories about baseball. Interesting stories
about his teammates, and especially Mickey Mantle. He told us from 1952 to 1956, Mantle was the Man. Mantle's power and all-around game inspired his Yankees teammates.

In the 1990's, I would often meet with Yogi Berra and his wife Carmen. My older daughter Debbie lived on the same street in Montclair (NJ). The Berra's home was just 4 houses
away from her's. Wonderful people, Yogi loved talking baseball, mostly about Mickey Mantle. And especially the 1956 World Series "Perfect Game" in which Mickey running at full
speed caught Gil Hodges 440-foot drive to the Monuments in left-centerfield in the 5th inning. Berra's face just "lit-up" with excitement as he described this event.

There are many more stories that I could tell here, but I've said enough for now.

Take care,


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[triwak]

Can I interrupt this conversation to inquire, if anyone has ever seen the giant bat that was awarded to the Red Stockings, or have there ever been documents surface as to it's fate or whereabouts? Seriously. What an amazing piece of baseball memorabilia THAT would be!!

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by triwak

Can I interrupt this conversation to inquire, if anyone has ever seen the giant bat that was awarded to the Red Stockings, or have there ever been documents surface as to it's fate or whereabouts? Seriously. What an amazing piece of baseball memorabilia THAT would be!!

Ken,

That's a great question, one I've wondered about myself. I have never heard of anyone seeing it, but wouldn't that be a sight to see!

[barrysloate]

I've heard that the bat no longer exists, but have no documentation to back it up. Wouldn't you think it's too big to lose track of? It's not the kind of thing you can misplace.

[bgar3]

There is another book out about the 1869 Red Stockings by the same authors who did the First Boys of Summer. It is also a great book. Highly recommended.
The bat has never been located and is presumed to have been destroyed. There is a chapter on missing artifacts that had been sold at at least 2 auctions between 1871 and 1919. Some amazing things, like Harry Wright’s uniform.
The new book is Baseball Revolutionaries by Rhodes, Eradi and Gajus.

[tedzan]

Just reprising this post from another thread to keep the record straight of what I said.

Originally Posted by tedzan

Well, these 1871 Troy Haymakers scorecards aren't old enough to be the first BB cards; but, they sure are rare. Ten scorecards
were issued in 1871 - 1872 portraying players on this National Association team.


William "Clipper" Flynn (1871 - 1872)





Tom York (1871 - 1885)







TED Z

T206 Reference
.