The first card PSA ever graded

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Posted By: Julie

was a "mistake."

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Posted By: PASJD

I am of course aware of the "received wisdom" that the card was trimmed, but other than rumor and speculation I have never heard the particulars of how people know that, or whether PSA stands by the grade, and so on.

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Posted By: ethan frost

this is a wonderful pre war message board, i just dont get the constant bashing of PSA.

the Doyle variation was a horrible mistake and yet somehow SGC gets off the hook fairly easy. Even though a non baseball card collector could tell that it had a letter glued to the card.

Everyone who has actually seen the wagner outside of the holder say its not trimmed. The current owner says its fine and that he has gotten offers of over 2 mill for the card.

the only reason PSA has so many "mistakes" out there is because they have graded at least 10 times as many cards as anyone else.

the Percentages are the same.

bashing grading in general, i understand.

picking on PSA is childish.

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Posted By: PASJD

To be clearer, I have read on this board and heard other places that the Wagner was trimmed, and it is stated as though it was a matter of "fact" rather than one of speculation and opinion. Having no knowledge myself, I am interested in what the basis for the claim is; can people tell from the appearance of the card; do people "know" first-hand; has PSA acknowledged a "mistake," etc. If this is a repeat of ancient discussions forgive me.

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Posted By: Joe_G.

I agree there is more than a fair share of PSA (and others) bashing.

However, the comment that PSA should have more mistakes because they've graded 10 times more isn't entirely true. For instance, SGC has actually graded more Old Judges than PSA. When it comes to vintage items, 19th century in particular, SGC is well represented.

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Posted By: ethan frost

Mastro says it was real, the current owner says its real, PSA says its real.

the card keeps breaking price records everytime it goes up for auction.

thats good enough for me.

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Posted By: Julie

from 4 experts, the whole gory story. None of them are ready to put it in print. Guess that says something...I am NOT an expert, nor do I buy graded cards. Sure would like to line it up against some T206 commons...

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Posted By: ethan frost

Joe,

SGC is a wonderful company, i collect cuban cards and actually prefer them over PSA for those issues.

its just that the bashing gets old

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Posted By: PASJD

Well one would not expect the current owner or PSA to say the card was trimmed, so I don't find that persuasive one way or the other. Perhaps others with knowledge, or the poster making the claim (that is how I interpret her claim anyway, I assume the Wagner is the "first card PSA ever graded," and I assume she is referring to the rumors that it was trimmed) will come forward with facts.

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Posted By: Julie

I meant to add my comment to the "Mistakes were made" thread, but couldn't find it. It's there. I didn't think the topic warrented a whole thread, at least not from my point of view.

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Posted By: PASJD

Julie are these "reluctant experts" expressing opinions based on the appearance of the card, or do they claim to have actual knowledge.

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Posted By: MW

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Posted By: HW

MW, well said.

The same can probably be said for the memorabilia authenticators also.

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Posted By: Bruce Babcock

I know nothing about the PSA 8 Wagner other than the rumors that have been referred to over the years, and alluded to here.

However, I have heard of grading companies rejecting cards as "altered" which do not exhibit "minimum thickness." Allegedly, cards can be compressed under pressure, which increases the over dimensions slightly. Then the card is trimmed down to the normal size. Presumably the grading companies would detect such minute variations in thickness by using a digital caliper. A relatively inexpensive precision caliper is accurate to 1/1000 of an inch. I would have thought that such compression would "spread" the surface of the card so that the gloss on a high end card would be disturbed.

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Posted By: Judge Dred

PSA, SGC, GAI, et al all have their fair share of mistakes and headaches. I'm an equal opportunity grading service scrutinizer, I don't discriminate against any service - I call it like I see it and I don't need a third party grading service to tell me the condition of a card.

"Subjectivity" - Even if everybody were to follow some type of grading standard there would still be a huge difference in one persons view of EXMT and another persons view of EXMT.

No, grading services are not infallible but it sure would be nice if the grading services used some of their profits to reinvest in a better quality control system or it would be nice if there was a little more uniformity in the understanding of all the graders interpretation of the grading system that they employ.

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Posted By: HW

The subjectivity of card grading is obviously a concern. In my personal collection, I keep an inventory with the item's grade among other things. I have often looked at an item in my collecton and can not believe that I once graded it "Excellent" when it is now looks "Excellent to Mint" (or vice versa)

It is hard for me (one person) to be consistent. It has to real difficult for the grading companies if they employ large staffs.

I have also received items from well respected dealers and auction houses that were overgraded one time and undergraded another (in my opinin) from the same company.

At the end of the day, I try to look at a slabbed grade or a letter of authenticity as my first step in evaluating an item. At the end of the day, I have to be comfortable with an item for it to be in my collection, no matter what anyone else says.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

as I have received in the mail today yet another PSA holder that could not stand up to the "rigors" of being shipped in a padded bubble mailer without cracking. What a P-O-S holder! I have never had a problem with damage to an SGC holder in the mail.

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Posted By: Julie

(only one saw it "before"); interviews with the numebr 2 and number 4 owners (before and after), and descriptions of the "before" card; the words of the person responisble for the altering, who was "a good friend," and 4) the absolute incredibility of the very first card a grading company grades being a PSA 8 T206 Wagner!

One of these experts, who posts on this board, had a long, explicit story to tell...one of the more memorable lines from which was "You have GOT to make this sale stick!"

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Posted By: Mike Poland

No not the wagner...but this, http://www.t206museum.com/page/discussion_2.html

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Posted By: DD

.

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Posted By: Julie

and the discussion contains much of what I had aleady been told.

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Posted By: Mike Poland

When I said, no not the wagner...I was just making a play on words in regard to the subject line of "A little something to add to the fire"...as in not adding the wagner card in a literal fire but adding a link to the proverbial fire in regard to the discussion.

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Posted By: PASJD

Not to fault the poster, but the information on that link was pretty thin, it didn't seem to amount to any more than rumors and speculation that were denied. It seems to me as a deductive matter that either the rumors are false, or that there are people who know the truth but they do not wish to go public with their knowledge, whether as a result of a "conspiracy of silence" or for other reasons. Well I had hoped to learn more, perhaps I will some day. It would certainly be disheartening to me if the most significant card that has ever been slabbed was trimmed. From such an auspicious beginning it doesn't seem much good can follow.

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Posted By: J Levine

The last time the National was in Anaheim, I was there with a few experts and friends and got to hold the PSA 8 Wagner (among others)...A good friend of mine grabbed two t-206 commons I was holding and we compared size to the Wagner. I was there, I have first hand knowledge. I will tell you this, the card did not measure up. It was a great trim job. I mean great...it was hard to tell but easy to see when the cards were placed on top of it. As I recall, the Wagner was not taken out after that because the owner at the time nearly had a cow when he saw what we were doing. In my opinion it was trimmed. Not easily noticeable but I feel that it was...I am not an expert in t-206s but have seen my share.

My two cents...

Joshua

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Posted By: Scott

Card-slabbing is a part of the hobby that isn't going away - so we discuss problems (giving examples when we find them) and suggest solutions. SGC and PSA both get "bashed" on this board - the main difference is how each responds. SGC seems to welcome criticism and suggestions, which is why many of us use them when we slab cards.

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Posted By: leon

What Julie said. I know several experts that have told me they have personally seen before and after of the card. It's a great card and the newest/current owner went on the old board and expressed his opinion and was very eloquent in the matter. At the end of the day it's almost not about "the" card but what it represents. He goes to schools to show children the card and otherwise does a lot of good charitable stuff, if I remember correctly, which is good for the hobby. As for all of the other rhetoric here about bashing PSA, SGC etc......they all will get scrutinized and get what they deserve. Personally I think both do a decent job but I just trust SGC more....as I know and respect them. regards all

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Posted By: qualitycards.com

"it was hard to tell but easy to see when the cards were placed on top of it."

I have a small stack of beat up F/G T206's and it seems that no 2 are alike in size, and I doub't anyone trimmed my Orval Overall. So stacking a T206 card at random on top of the Wagner may not be the perfect indicator if its been trimmed or not. To see the edges would help, but thats very hard once a card has been slabbed.

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Posted By: MW

I agree with Leon that the current owner has done a lot of positive things with the card.

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Posted By: PASJD

To me, MW's personal observation that the card "definitely" looked different is quite powerful and disturbing and the most directly relevant thing I have seen posted yet. In a sense I agree with Leon that at this point it almost doesn't matter, the card has a life of its own as an icon whether it is trimmed or not, but on the other hand, what does it say about PSA if they made a mistake (and I will assume for argument's sake it was an innocent mistake) right off the bat with a card of that magnitude?

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Posted By: Julie

a comparison of size (I was amazed at the earlier post in which someone said he had actually compared the size of the Wagner to some commons--and the Wagner didn't measure up!), and , more subtly, the edges. A 100-year-old card will generally taper to the edge, especially at the corners. Most dealers routinely check the edges of T206s in this way....pretty hard with an encapsulated card, huh? Was PSA born to hide the edges of a trimmed card?

It may be the hobby and it may be the card of all time, but if anyone ever has the guts to prove it is a trinmmed card,. everyone will acknowledge that an enormous fraud has been perpetrated. Even if the present owner is Mother Teresa.

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Posted By: dan mckee

The Wagner and several other high grade T206s were on display at the PSA booth at a national several years ago. 90% of the display including the Wagner were trimmed. The difference is, PSA first refused the card as trimmed as they should have. But after convincing, they slabbed it. The person that persuaded PSA to slab it and the current owner wouldn't admit it is trimmed even if it were cut in half. SGC made a mistake, they immediately offered to pay Alan what he bought it for. There is your difference, customer service and making a wrong, right, not making a right, wrong. All grading gets bashed here, PSA more than SGC because of the material we collect here. SGC is by far more knowledgable in the pre-war market than PSA.

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Posted By: PASJD

Without naming names, is the person who convinced PSA to slab the card the same person responsible for trimming it? Seems a reasonable enough inference.

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Posted By: Julie

The corners, the perfect coloring...I felt like I was looking at something created and preserved in--one of those bubbles that they keep people with no immune systems in.

We know that can't be true. The blasted hypnotic card--made me want to scream and run!

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Posted By: Judge Dred

There has been a lot of credible information provided by many sources about "that" Wagner and the sad part is that so many people want to believe so many different things that the truth has become very distorted and unfortunately the truth may not come to light for many years (or ever).

I realize that this thread is dedicated to "that" Wagner card but is it ok to bring in two more words to this thread:

"HARRIS COLLECTION"

I don't want to stir the pot but isn't there some link of commonality between "that" Wagner and SOME of "those other cards?" Perhaps not as related to this thread.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

Why is the very first card PSA ever slabbed the PSA 8 Wagner? And how did they develop the expertise to authenticate and grade it, since it was their first? And how many times have we criticized "old" PSA cards (the ones with the labels that have the funny typeface "0") as being inaccurately graded?

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Posted By: marty

I am a little confussed. This Wagner card has the cert #1, but I do not believe that it was the first card that PSA graded. What was the first card graded? I thought that the first cards graded were Hall's. He did not own the Wagner.

Like some others here, I have seen a picture of this card prior to PSA ever seeing it. I have not had a close up inspection of the card, just through the display case.

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Posted By: hankron

I think Adam's suggesting they should have practiced first on a few 1988 Fleer Jim Ganters or a 1987 Topps Tommy Lasorda to get the kinks out.

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Posted By: Julie

And that's the truth...

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Posted By: Ethan Frost

The Wagner is not the first graded card by PSA.

the whole thing about the Wagner being trimmed is pointless

any grading company would gladly grade this card!

the card might as well always been real at this point.

My point was that the bashing of PSA really seems vicious on this board.

PSA made graded cards what they are today, they invented the registry and they are the ones that bring the highest prices.

what credentials do SGC have that PSA doesnt?

If PSA were to down tomorrow SGC would not be first the #1 company nor would gai, the whole graded concept would die with them.

its freaking late and i am so wasted i might have to edit the living bejesus of this post, my whole point is that this would be a better board if the members here didnt post such negative crap all the time, thats all

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Posted By: Julie

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Posted By: jay behrens

Ethan, the slabbing business will survive just fine if PSA closes shop. All that statement proves is that you are blindly loyal to PSA.

Others who are more knowledgable can tell you why SGC has better credentials than PSA when comes to grading vintage cards.

Jay

Wow upside down is Mom. Mom upside down is what dad wants to see.

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Posted By: Julie

PSA graded (if you want to cop out of ANYTHING you said last night, please feel free, but otherwise): why is it cert #1, and what was graded before, and when?

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Posted By: david

the wagner was not the first card psa ever graded. they had been around for several years before grading the wagner. they gave the card the #1 serial number because of the fanfare associated with the card.

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Posted By: Scott

But give Ethan credit for saying exactly what he thinks - I do agree with him that at this point the PSA-slabbed Wagner might as well be considered original. It is not in the best interest of PSA or the current owner to think otherwise. I also agree with Ethan that GAI or SGC would love to grade that Wagner - I just don't think the results would be the same...at least with SGC.

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Posted By: leon

Nothing personal but "ignorance is bliss"......take care

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Posted By: Julie

and I will try to get the person who told it to me to post about it...may be futile, but I'll try.

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

I really don't think SGC or GAI would "want" to grade that bogus Wagner! Afterall, didn't SGC not grade any T206 Wagners at all for a certain period of time????? People can say what they want as to why, but it was b/c they did not want a huge liability for a mistake the size of PSA's slabbing that particular card.

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Posted By: MW

Ethan & david,

You are mistaken. The PSA 8 T206 Wagner was the very first card graded by that company.

David Hall himself has verified this to be true:

"This card was the first card ever graded by PSA. We gave it certification #1 in 1991."

Link - http://www.collectors.com/articles/article_view.chtml?artid=3093

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Posted By: Greg Ecklund

Was there ever any controversy over David Hall's handling of his own collection with regards to his company? Having your collection graded by a company you run and having that particular '52 Topps Mantle happen to come up a "10" seems incredibly shady to me. If I recall correctly, many of Hall's cards ended up being of the "highest grade ever" variety.

If I'm not understanding this correctly I would appreciate it if someone enlightened me.

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Posted By: PASJD

I wonder what the Tiger Woods card that sold for $125,000 is worth today. I'll take the under. The SI for Kids cards were torn from perforated sheets too, so it strikes me that a "10" is just completely arbitrary.