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#1
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Baseball's Most Overrated Stat
Posted By: Lee Behrens
The Strikeout, The Whiff, The K. No matter what you call it, it does no more for your team than an infield fly. Why don't they keep a stat for the # of infield flys a pitcher gives up? |
#2
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Baseball's Most Overrated Stat
Posted By: runscott
Any time a ball is put in play there is more of a chance that something will happen for the offense. |
#3
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Baseball's Most Overrated Stat
Posted By: Hankron
I rank the strikeout with basketball's slam dunk. A slam dunk has lots of flash, but ain't worth any more points that a middle school lay up. |
#4
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Baseball's Most Overrated Stat
Posted By: Julie Vognar
If they did, Nolan Ryan would have a record like Walter Johnson's. |
#5
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Baseball's Most Overrated Stat
Posted By: Lee Behrens
I think there is just as good as chance to K-E-2 as an infielder making an error on the play. |
#6
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Baseball's Most Overrated Stat
Posted By: jeff s
he's talking about all sorts of non-powerful hits that fielders can't get to. For instance, a pitcher can't control where a ground ball goes, beyond perhaps throwing heaters and forcing the hitter to hit the other way. |
#7
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Baseball's Most Overrated Stat
Posted By: Lee Behrens
It says infield flys, notanything hit in the infield. |
#8
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Baseball's Most Overrated Stat
Posted By: runscott
I would never claim that the strikeout is the only weapon a pitcher needs in his arsenal - the game of baseball is multi-faceted; however, there are many pitchers who have lived by the strike-out. When John Smoltz walks to the mound in the ninth, no one is hoping the batter puts the ball in play. Sorry, I already said that. |
#9
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Baseball's Most Overrated Stat
Posted By: Brian Weisner
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#10
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Baseball's Most Overrated Stat
Posted By: BcD
credited to the pticher on what otherwise might be a passed ball. That's an overrated credit to the pitcher of record. Pedro has like 18 of them! |
#11
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Baseball's Most Overrated Stat
Posted By: Marc S.
Ryan's many statistical records are the results of longevity in the game -- not because of particular dominance at any one time. Yes, Ryan played for some mediocre teams -- but he was only a mediocre pitcher on those teams, not the dominant leader that Carlton was on the Phillies in 1972. |
#12
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Baseball's Most Overrated Stat
Posted By: runscott
"strike-out ratio" has nothing to do with longevity. Nor do wins or strikeouts in a season. And no, Ryan wasn't a mediocre pitcher for mediocre teams, any more than Carlton was during several seasons in his career. True, Ryan never had a season like Carlton had in '72. |
#13
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Baseball's Most Overrated Stat
Posted By: Lee Behrens
Walter Johnson pitched most of his career with bad teams and still managed to win over 400 games. He did not have any where close to the number of walks of Ryan, so was able to keep more runners off the base paths. |
#14
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Baseball's Most Overrated Stat
Posted By: runscott
Walter Johnson was possibly the greatest pitcher ever. Ryan wasn't, but he wasn't mediocre either. |
#15
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Baseball's Most Overrated Stat
Posted By: Anonymous
For 60? odd years. His record was close to untouchable until the modern day players consistantly tossed 200-300+ Ks/year. |
#16
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Baseball's Most Overrated Stat
Posted By: warshawlaw
Game winning RBI is the most useless stat they compile. if your team wins 5 to 4, they are all GWRBI's. |
#17
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Baseball's Most Overrated Stat
Posted By: leon
Adam I think you are incorrect. As most of us have played ball before, at some level, I can safely tell you, in my opinion, there is almost nothing more exhilerating than getting a game winning rbi in the last inning. It has a natural high that beats any drug I have ever done(almost)...The rbi in earlier innings is not as exciting as you don't know it's the game winner till it's over. Walter Johnson has my vote for best pitcher of all time, although I did see Ryan get K # 4000, in person, and spilled beer all over myself .....best regards |
#18
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Baseball's Most Overrated Stat
Posted By: Kevin Cummings
I can't believe no one has yet brought up the save. I can't believe how liberal the criteria is. |
#19
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Baseball's Most Overrated Stat
Posted By: Jay Miller
I think we have established that there are several not very important stats. I agree with Kevin that the save, as currently defined, is a joke. However, going back to Lee's initial point, I think the strikeout is certainly one of the most overrated stats. Sure when a batter is struck out he can't put the ball in play. Striking out a batter is better than him hitting a ball which might find a hole or a brick handed fielder. However, in evaluating a pitcher those possiblities are already accounted for in other areas such as era. As to Ryan's abilities I think he was a very good pitcher who had the potential to be unhittable on certain nights. If I had one game to win he wouldn't be my first choice to pitch the game, or even one of my top twenty choices, but he certainly was a quality pitcher who lasted a long time. He also did a pretty good job defending himself when some unthinking batter charged the mound (think Robin Ventura). BTW Leon, I was also at the 4K K game at the Dome. |
#20
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Baseball's Most Overrated Stat
Posted By: runscott
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#21
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Baseball's Most Overrated Stat
Posted By: leon
Hey Jay, |
#22
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Baseball's Most Overrated Stat
Posted By: warshawlaw
The question wasn't how much fun the event is (if so, the K would be right up there), the question is how useful a stat is, how it reflects success on the field. GWRBI isn't useful. It doesn't measure anything meaningful. It is only an accident of timing. Statistically, each run has the same value. |
#23
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Baseball's Most Overrated Stat
Posted By: Albie O'Hanian
I would vote for the Save. Some saves are far more valuable than others. Coming into a game in the ninth inning with a 3 run lead and retiring the side after giving up 2 runs should hardly be counted as a save. |
#24
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Baseball's Most Overrated Stat
Posted By: Hankron
I don't think that there's a problem with 'overated' statistics themselves (strikeout total, saves, # or 360 slam dunks per game), but that some statistics are taken way too seriously. A strikeout is an important tool, especially with the bases loaded and the game tied-- but seasonal strikeout totals shouldn't be ranked on par with Win-Loss and ERA. To me that the traditional 'shoe-in' requirements for Hall of Fame induction is 300 wins and 3000 strikeouts is somewhat bizarre (the bizarreness being with the second number, not the first). |
#25
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Baseball's Most Overrated Stat
Posted By: Peter Thomas
I agree that the counting method is flawed, but the inportance of a true save is great. If Gagne was with Red Sox they would be leading the Yanks by 5-1/2 instead of trailing by 5-1/2; Pedro would be 18-4 headed for another Cy Young; could have skiped the ninth inning last night against the D-Rays and be in better shape for his next start. Very important function tracked by impercise stat. |
#26
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Baseball's Most Overrated Stat
Posted By: runscott
I still think the HOF should be reserved for "great" players, not guys who can hang around long enough at "above average" to get the numbers...like 300 wins (Don Sutton, Phil Niekro). |
#27
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Baseball's Most Overrated Stat
Posted By: runscott
joking aside, I would call it the "Hall of Consistently Above Average". |
#28
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Baseball's Most Overrated Stat
Posted By: Hankron
So there isn't confusion, I do think Nolan Ryan was a great pitcher and deserves to the be the Hall of Fame. I also am aware that it is not a coincidence that many of the greatest pitchers (Johnson, Seaver, Carlton, Clemens) had amongst the highest strikeout totals. So I am not suggesting that strikeouts are an irrelevant statistic. |
#29
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Baseball's Most Overrated Stat
Posted By: jeff s
It seems like Gagne, used as most closers are used, would only be of so much help to the bosox. After all, the 6th, 7th, and 8th innings are pretty shaky for the Sox, too. An awful lot of blown saves are blown in the 7th. No doubt the Red Sox would rather have Gagne than any of their characters--no argument there. |
#30
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Baseball's Most Overrated Stat
Posted By: Peter Thomas
Jeff - If they had him and I was in charge - I would use him like they used Dick Raditz in the early/mid 60's when they were realy bad. Raditz was unhitable for 3 or 4 years and they would use him when they had a lead after the 6th inning which wasn't that offen. Now with there team i would use him to pitch the 8th & 9th inning when the game was tied or they have a small lead. In blow outs either way have him sit - so 2 innings not so often. Pedro has lost 4 wins like this after the 7th inning this year. |
#31
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Baseball's Most Overrated Stat
Posted By: BCD
Hank The Hammer. Look at his stats compared to th longevity concerns you raise. he should have retired around 1970 or 71 or so. |
#32
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Baseball's Most Overrated Stat
Posted By: runscott
Aaron was truly a great player. Also, I don't hold it against Phil Niekro that he stayed in the game longer than most players - that's admirable - I just don't think "not great" players should get in the hall because of "magic numbers" that were achieved purely because of longevity. |
#33
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Baseball's Most Overrated Stat
Posted By: W.M.
Ask any manager what the most important pitching stat next to wins is and he will tell you hands down the strike out. |
#34
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Baseball's Most Overrated Stat
Posted By: Lee Behrens
That don't say I hope for a pop up in the infield, because it is not a "glamour" stat, but it has exactly the same effect, 1 out and no runners advance. It is just that no one happens to keep a pop up on the infiield stat, so the pitchers that are able to do this well are not "glamorized". |
#35
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Baseball's Most Overrated Stat
Posted By: runscott
If I were managing the team I would call in this pitching master in the 9th with a one-run lead, and tell him "okay, three quick pop-ups to the infield and we all can go home - go get 'em". |
#36
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Baseball's Most Overrated Stat
Posted By: halleygator
I remember when Mike Stanton used to pitch for the Braves years ago, he would talk to himself right before every pitch. |
#37
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Baseball's Most Overrated Stat
Posted By: runscott
I can see my old LL coach coaching Nolan Ryan: "C'mon Nolan, just let 'em put the ball in play so your team-mates can do their jobs!" |
#38
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Baseball's Most Overrated Stat
Posted By: jay berhens
It still amazes me that people sneer at longevity as a measure of greatness. There are 2 types of 'great', the supernova's and those with longevity. |
#39
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Baseball's Most Overrated Stat
Posted By: jay behrens
the GWRBI stat lasted less than 5 years as an offical stat. If someone is still compiliing it, it is not MLB. At least they had the sense to see the stat was flawed and abondoned it. |
#40
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Baseball's Most Overrated Stat
Posted By: runscott
Does that make me "great"? |
#41
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Baseball's Most Overrated Stat
Posted By: runscott
Sometimes the marketing is not good for the game from the viewpoint of a baseball purist, but in terms of ticket sales it might be a winner - Nolan Ryan brought people to the ball-park, and that was one of the big reasons the Rangers paid him so much. As a purist, I could do without "dot races", internet All-Star voting and the DH. But I liked watching Ryan pitch, even when he was wasting his talent with the Rangers (he was actually more fun to watch than Mike Stanton). |
#42
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Baseball's Most Overrated Stat
Posted By: Mike (18colt)
First, the save. As stated earlier in this thread, the definition needs to be changed. A pitcher can get a save by not losing the lead no matter how much it is if he pitches the final 3 innings. The Phillies could be up 15-2 over say, the Braves, and Larry Bowa could summon Terry Adams from the bullpen in the 7th, have him finish the game with a 15-2 victory, and he still gets the save. That part needs to be changed. But -- there's hope Red Sox fans. If they could trade LA for Gagne, a former starter, maybe he could pitch innings 6-8 or 7-9 and save the day. |
#43
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Baseball's Most Overrated Stat
Posted By: Jay Miller
I have reconsidered my prior post and have now decided that the most useless stat is the "help". This must be the major league baseball equivalent of every kid in little league getting a trophy. If most of you are like me you can't even accurately define how someone gets a "help". However, any stat that can be accumulated by a pitcher, whether his team wins or not, has doubtful value. |
#44
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Baseball's Most Overrated Stat
Posted By: Cy
People always complain that Ryan was on losing teams and that's why he had a poor record. That |
#45
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Baseball's Most Overrated Stat
Posted By: Peter Thomas
Cy: your point is sound but the math is lacking. Using your numbers Ryan was 6.5% better that his team whithout adjusting for the fact that he was 6.5% better than his team which would make him even better than that. Maddox was 15.7% better than his team without adjusting for the fact that he was 15.7% better than his team which would also make him even better than that. |
#46
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Baseball's Most Overrated Stat
Posted By: Peter Thomas
Adjusting for the fact that both were better than their teams. Ryan was 7.8% better and Maddox is 19.6% better. BTW I would place Johnson best ever. |
#47
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Baseball's Most Overrated Stat
Posted By: Brian H
Not to say that it is a meaningless or worthless stat -- but I think batting average is significantly overrated. Conversely, walks (by hitters) is underrated as is on-base-percentage (Walks & Hit by Pitch & Hits / plate apparences). Unless a hit is more than a single or advances a runner by more than one base it is no more than equal to a walk. Also, unintentional walks wear down Pitchers. |
#48
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Baseball's Most Overrated Stat
Posted By: Albie O'Hanian
You cannot simply compare how well a pitcher fares against another by his winning percentage. What was their run support? Who was there mound opponent? In 1978 Ryan and Tanana had virtually the same era - but Tanana was 18-12 and Ryan was 10-13. In 1980 with Houston Ryan had a better era than Joe Niekro - Ryan finished 11-10 and Niekro was 20-12. Personally, I think Maddux was superior to Ryan but Ryan was indeed great. |
#49
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Baseball's Most Overrated Stat
Posted By: sagard
Counting wins and losses is not the best way of measuring pitching performance. Use the ERA. |
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