T220 Silver - Uncut Edition

[steve B]

Originally Posted by G1911

As far as I am aware, this is the only "full sheet" of an ATC/AL partnership set known (not mine). It's a pre-production 'pass around' of T62, I believe, due to the tiny size that would have been completely impractical for actual production run.

I suspect the layout will tell us if this is similar, or what the probable full production run would have been. If it's one or two sheets, it's very likely the final layout as redoing the layout on a full-size sheet would seem to serve zero purpose. If it's just a couple cards together and this is many sheets, then it probably is a 'pass around'.

The Summers card is why I think T218-3 will follow this similar block printing format. I have a T29 Hippopotamus card suggesting it too was done in block format. But, my strips of T25's would show not all large-size cards in the partnership were done this way. Horizontal miscuts on the large size cards are almost non-existant. I have 3 or 4 vertical T220-2 white borders showing the same card on top of itself. Never seen a T220-1 Silver miscut either direction.

I love the West Coast T cards. It's a shame they never did a set in the larger physical format, the detail in the faces, the bold backgrounds. I've slowly begun T224/T229 the last couple months, up to a whopping 5 cards.

Yes, that would be a progressive proof. There are still some books from ALC that have complete progressive proofs of each color plus most combinations for cigar box labels.

I don't recall ever seeing a full book for cards.

I think it's likely these were from the masters used to print the layout transfers for the production plates/stones.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by steve B

Yes, that would be a progressive proof. There are still some books from ALC that have complete progressive proofs of each color plus most combinations for cigar box labels.

I don't recall ever seeing a full book for cards.

I think it's likely these were from the masters used to print the layout transfers for the production plates/stones.

Steve, is that why we see tearing by the alignment marks I've seen it on other sheets and Greg's Jordan panel with the alignment marks on the border is torn.
Were they held down with tape?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Pat R

[/B]

Steve, is that why we see tearing by the alignment marks I've seen it on other sheets and Greg's Jordan panel with the alignment marks on the border is torn.
Were they held down with tape?

There is also a tear on one of the E229 panels where a side alignment mark is, if this might matter.

[Pat R]

Greg, were the T220's a one or two series release?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Greg, were the T220's a one or two series release?

I think two. The silver border series was definitley printed and done first, only from Mecca 649 (the only Mecca release to not have a factory 30 version). We know this because of the Coburn card; the man to his left on the Silver border card was for some reason removed from the image for the white border. There are two variations of his white border card showing different levels of removal of the man in the background.

The change in card images strongly suggests to me the silver's were not issued concurrently with the white borders, but this can't be stated as absolute fact.

The checklist was then expanded to 50 cards and issued as a single (probably) White Border series, with Mecca and Tolstoi. You can tell, for the non-fight-between cards, purely by the style of the artwork and its background whether a card was first produced in the Silver run or was only issued with the second series. I would think there was likely a gap between Mecca and Tolstoi's release of the 2nd series white border run, if the date in the ATC ledger is accurate.


I think it is a strong possibility that, internally, ATC thought of T220 as the same set as T218 (note the series caption on card backs, there are no "athletes" in T220, used by 2 of the 3 T218 brands; 2 of which did not issue the entire set), and T220 is really the third series of T218, making what we call the third series actually the fourth series.

[G1911]

I hope some of this stuff means something to you, Steve, I don't know squat about printing really.

For the sake of completeness, here are my T25 strips I got recently, clearly not printed in block format. These two strips do not fit together, and have a right side border. Presumably there were more cards to the left in each row.

This is all I know of of uncut ATC/presumed American Lithographic cardboard cards. The T62 internal test sheet, these T25's, the T220 Silver's, These E229 or D353 sheets, and then of course the famed Wagner strip. There is probably more known to others, this is just all I have records of in my photo archive or possession.

[G1911]

I've begun my drive into "Old Masters Lithographic Company" and... wow, there isn't much at all. I haven't found squat from 1909-1912 that we want to focus on here. But there are some things.

Here's a company by this name, with a 1926 patent from the 350th volume of the Official Gazette of the United States Patent Office (https://www.google.com/books/edition...C?hl=en&gbpv=0, the .pdf is 547mb). A Thomas A. Meehan is either an executive of this company or the inventor of this product (I lay no claim to understanding what it actually is).

A Thomas Meehan apparently later owned a "Meehan-Tooker" company that purchased Bauer Lithography in 1946 according to an industry journal.

A Thomas Meehan published in Philadelphia in 1880 a collection of chromo-lithographs of botanical pictures, the Native Flowers and Ferns of the United States

I do not know that either of these men are the same Thomas Meehan, or that a Meehan or this Old Masters Lithographic Company is the same as the Old Masters Lithographic Company that Fullgraff, while clearly an Employee of Brett Lithography and with a deep association with the ATC and American Lithography, was using on his business card affixed to the cover of his ledger.

"Old Masters" was an industry term, and makes sense to use as the name of a lithography company; this may be a different company 15 years later. It may have been a name Fullgraff used for his business concerns as a contractor salesman (he gave up his salary in early 1910 after only a year with Brett to work commission only). This may have been a personal book for his own use. Even today many sales reps have not dissimilar spreadsheets tracking things themselves to validate their commissions and the like. Fullgraff was involved with card production of the classic N sets, the T sets, and evidently tried again in the 1920's. It's possible the figures recorded were for him to validate production counts and contracts for his commissions (which he clearly did, for he sued Brett years later for not paying him right), and he scrapbooked some of his creations out of hobby interest, pride in his work as he was a designer and marketer as well as a salesman at the least, or something else. Cards were clearly a significant part of his business life. Or it might be a formal ledger from this evidently small printer, that is presumably a subsidiary of American Lithographic, Brett, or both.

This would be a lot easier if it's buyer would out himself so we could see more than a handful of pages



2023 EDIT: I am leaving what I said for the record, but coming back to correct a point on Meehan. The Thomas Meehan who published the book of botanical pictures is confirmed to be a different Meehan.

[G1911]

Meehan-Tooker was a significantly sizer lithographer. In 1964 they were bought by City News and Schneider Press, and added 60,000 square feet of offie space and 130 more employees. A Meehan does not seem to have been leading the company bearing his name at this time. There are numerous industry references to them from the 1950's and later in the New York area. They reincorporated in 1969 and now appear to be in NJ or possibly MI as a very small company. They had subsidiary lithography companies in NY as late as 1997.

So there is a Thomas Meehan, Lithographer, working for a company of the same name on Fullgraff's business card some time later. The Fullgraff book is presumably after 1910; the Dixie Queen's in it are probably from the mid 1910's. So this gentleman is a lithographer in the same place with the same business name a decade later, and then his name is used for a Lithography company which he isn't running anymore by the 1950's and continues to recent times. He may be the owner of Old Masters in 1926, he must be a significant employee at least. I'm not finding much on him from the 1910's or 20's. But this may be our path to ID'ing Old Masters.

The book of botany lithographs appears to be a different Meehan from this inventor/lithographer, a professor of the subject and probably not our man.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by G1911

I think two. The silver border series was definitley printed and done first, only from Mecca 649 (the only Mecca release to not have a factory 30 version). We know this because of the Coburn card; the man to his left on the Silver border card was for some reason removed from the image for the white border. There are two variations of his white border card showing different levels of removal of the man in the background.

The change in card images strongly suggests to me the silver's were not issued concurrently with the white borders, but this can't be stated as absolute fact.

The checklist was then expanded to 50 cards and issued as a single (probably) White Border series, with Mecca and Tolstoi. You can tell, for the non-fight-between cards, purely by the style of the artwork and its background whether a card was first produced in the Silver run or was only issued with the second series. I would think there was likely a gap between Mecca and Tolstoi's release of the 2nd series white border run, if the date in the ATC ledger is accurate.


I think it is a strong possibility that, internally, ATC thought of T220 as the same set as T218 (note the series caption on card backs, there are no "athletes" in T220, used by 2 of the 3 T218 brands; 2 of which did not issue the entire set), and T220 is really the third series of T218, making what we call the third series actually the fourth series.

Thanks Greg. What I was wondering was if there were any of the panels that would seem out of sequence on this sheet but if the silver run was one series any of the T220 subjects could make up a panel on a silver sheet.

For what it worth as far as the T220 Tolstoi's go I strongly feel the Tolstoi back were printed later in each T206 series that they were printed in. I felt that way before I knew about the ATC journal and the info in the journal that pretty much backs it up.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Thanks Greg. What I was wondering was if there were any of the panels that would seem out of sequence on this sheet but if the silver run was one series any of the T220 subjects could make up a panel on a silver sheet.

For what it worth as far as the T220 Tolstoi's go I strongly feel the Tolstoi back were printed later in each T206 series that they were printed in. I felt that way before I knew about the ATC journal and the info in the journal that pretty much backs it up.

The last date referred to on card backs, other than Gans, is on Beecher (a card in Silver), a fight on April 14, 1910. A couple other cards with fight records end in March, 1910, several end in 1909 when that fighter was active in 1910. None of the white border only subjects carry us beyond the text on the silver backs. The ledgers March 1911 date for T220 Tolstoi thus seems rather late to not be a re-issue of the Mecca whites.

Gans was under contract when he was still alive (his T218-2 card was almost certainly, though not 100%, designed while he still breathed and was covered by the New York law that, I understand, only applied to living persons) and his T220 card was probably designed and planned before his death. His death was major nationwide news when it happened, makes sense it would be appended to the back text shortly before finalization. And it makes sense they just wouldn’t bother to update the backs on the 25 subjects carried over to the second white border series. But every one of the 25 subjects in the white border only group has their back text end a full year before the March 1911 packing date given for the Tolstoi’s. It’s also possible there was sometimes a large gap between printing and pack out.

The more I think about it, the more I think it probable (certainly pure opinion and not fact) that the Tolstoi’s were a re-issue of the set. If that fits with T206, that seems a further indication of a pattern. Tolstoi strikes me as a more interesting brand in relation to cards than most. It ranges from a mildly tough back to an extremely difficult back (T218’s second series, the bane of my card life), to easy peasy and commonly seen (T80). Old Mill is similar in this regard, all other brands off the top of my head don’t really fluctuate that much between sets.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by G1911

The last date referred to on card backs, other than Gans, is on Beecher (a card in Silver), a fight on April 14, 1910. A couple other cards with fight records end in March, 1910, several end in 1909 when that fighter was active in 1910. None of the white border only subjects carry us beyond the text on the silver backs. The ledgers March 1911 date for T220 Tolstoi thus seems rather late to not be a re-issue of the Mecca whites.

Gans was under contract when he was still alive (his T218-2 card was almost certainly, though not 100%, designed while he still breathed and was covered by the New York law that, I understand, only applied to living persons) and his T220 card was probably designed and planned before his death. His death was major nationwide news when it happened, makes sense it would be appended to the back text shortly before finalization. And it makes sense they just wouldn’t bother to update the backs on the 25 subjects carried over to the second white border series. But every one of the 25 subjects in the white border only group has their back text end a full year before the March 1911 packing date given for the Tolstoi’s. It’s also possible there was sometimes a large gap between printing and pack out.

The more I think about it, the more I think it probable (certainly pure opinion and not fact) that the Tolstoi’s were a re-issue of the set. If that fits with T206, that seems a further indication of a pattern. Tolstoi strikes me as a more interesting brand in relation to cards than most. It ranges from a mildly tough back to an extremely difficult back (T218’s second series, the bane of my card life), to easy peasy and commonly seen (T80). Old Mill is similar in this regard, all other brands off the top of my head don’t really fluctuate that much between sets.

I strongly believe the Tolstoi's were not a re-issue with the T206's there are several Tolstoi's similar to this one that indicate they were printed with the T206's.

https://bid.robertedwardauctions.com...e?itemid=46257

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Pat R

[/B]

Steve, is that why we see tearing by the alignment marks I've seen it on other sheets and Greg's Jordan panel with the alignment marks on the border is torn.
Were they held down with tape?

They were bound into books, sometimes with string similar to the 1800's albums.

Here's a not so great video showing one in a bit of detail.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZfLR3rf85I

Part 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkFAlTW--Yg

I'm not sure why there would be tearing at the alignment marks. Maybe if they were folding it up there to check something on the layout? But that's just a guess, and probably not a good guess.

[Pat R]

The discussion involving the T218's reminded me of this newspaper clip that I posted here awhile back would this have been T218's or could it have been some other issue? It was in a February 11 1911 newspaper.

[IMG][/IMG]

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Pat R

The discussion involving the T218's reminded me of this newspaper clip that I posted here awhile back would this have been T218's or could it have been some other issue? It was in a February 11 1911 newspaper.

Interesting, it’s not T218, E229, T224, T230. None of these have a Robert Williamson in the checklist, or a person in it close to that. I don’t know what cigarette card this could be…

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by G1911

Interesting, it’s not T218, E229, T224, T230. None of these have a Robert Williamson in the checklist, or a person in it close to that. I don’t know what cigarette card this could be…

It's actually kind of sad I remember doing some research on it and couldn't find anything on a Robert Williamson in any Tobacco sets. I thought maybe it was a card that looked like her brother and she was hoping it was him maybe R.P. Williams

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Pat R

It's actually kind of sad I remember doing some research on it and couldn't find anything on a Robert Williamson in any Tobacco sets. I thought maybe it was a card that looked like her brother and she was hoping it was him maybe R.P. Williams

If she hasn’t seen him in 35 years in 1911, it must be someone older than most of the athletes in T218, which is really a collection of the top track athletes in America in 1908. Williams was a talented sprinter of the 1910 period. Williams is never referred to as Williamson as far as I’ve ever seen. He also never is referred to by his first name though, it’s always R.P, and he is one of the more obscure runners in the issue. I don’t think this is our man, but I could be wrong.