Vintage Racing?

[Bored5000]

I am blown away by the ending price of an amazing autograph book of 1960s NASCAR racers that ended on eBay Wednesday night. The seller "youwin1415" has been listing all kinds of awesome racing items in recent months. I am not really an autograph guy, but the autograph book that ended tonight was just incredible -- I am still shocked at the $2,605 ending price. I figured the book would probably be around an $800-1,000 item, but two bidders put in huge snipes. My snipe never fired and was blown out of the water.

The book is just amazng, with dozen of autographs, including Fireball Roberts, Ralph Earnhardt, Dave MacDonald, Bobby Isaac, Billy Wade, Tiny Lund, Wendell Scott, Bobby Marshman, Jimmy Pardue, Jo Schlesser and tons of big name racers who did not perish in the '60s.

Just from looking at the list of names in the listing, there are at least seven drivers on the list who lost their lives racing in the 1960s.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-NASC...vip=true&rt=nc

[Bored5000]

Yikes, I just looked at one of "youwin1415"'s other amazing autograph auctions that ended on Wednesday night. I did not have a snipe in for this one, but it is also incredible -- with autographs of open wheel racers Marshall Teague, Jimmy Bryan, Bill Vukovich, Carl Scarborough and more. Just the four names I listed all died prior to 1961.

As awesome as the item is, the ending price of $3,350 left me stunned. The same buyer won both this item and the one listed above.

From those not familiar, Scarborough died of heat exhaustion during the 1953 Indy 500. Bill Vukovich dominated the race en route to winning (then was killed while leading at Indy going for his third straight win two years later). After winning the '53 race (in which nearly a dozen drivers were treated for heat-related issues), Vukovich climbed out of his car in Victory Lane and remarked: "You think this is hot? You ought to drive a tractor in Fresno in July."

Numerous relief drivers had to be used that day due to the heat. Vukovich also commented following the race: "Every time I passed a car, it had a different driver in it."

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-CART...p2047675.l2557

[brian1961]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

Yikes, I just looked at one of "youwin1415"'s other amazing autograph auctions that ended on Wednesday night. I did not have a snipe in for this one, but it is also incredible -- with autographs of open wheel racers Marshall Teague, Jimmy Bryan, Bill Vukovich, Carl Scarborough and more. Just the four names I listed all died prior to 1961.

As awesome as the item is, the ending price of $3,350 left me stunned. The same buyer won both this item and the one listed above.

From those not familiar, Scarborough died of heat exhaustion during the 1953 Indy 500. Bill Vukovich dominated the race en route to winning (then was killed while leading at Indy going for his third straight win two years later). After winning the '53 race (in which nearly a dozen drivers were treated for heat-related issues), Vukovich climbed out of his car in Victory Lane and remarked: "You think this is hot? You ought to drive a tractor in Fresno in July."

Numerous relief drivers had to be used that day due to the heat. Vukovich also commented following the race: "Every time I passed a car, it had a different driver in it."

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-CART...p2047675.l2557

Loved your write-ups, Eddie. While I am not into autographs much at all, I must say that the names you mentioned among the autographs were immensely impressive. Rarity is not good enough to describe how difficult it would be to find autographs of these long-deceased auto racing greats. Racing drivers are wonderful with their fans, and do sign easily for the most part, but some of these guys have been gone since before I was born, or at least over 50 years.

Great story on Bill Vukovich, which I well remember reading on the 1953 500. The official film called that race "The Hottest 500". In the film Carl Scarborough is seen driving slowly into the pits, for the last time. The look on his face was terrible. What struck me was that he was wearing a solid black uniform, which would exacerbate the effect of the sunlight on him, contributing to his demise. How sad.

The autograph that struck home the most was Dave MacDonald, one of the greatest Corvette racers of all time, as well as that of the Cobra, King Cobra, and the Cobra Daytona coupe. I dearly wish he had taken Jim Clark's advice to him to just get out of that car and walk away from it, referring of course to the infamous Mickey Thompson car that took his life, and was the worst-looking accident in Indy history. To think he survived the accident, and died in the hospital a few hours later.......

Hope you're doing well, Eddie, and thanks for buying my book, and contributing to the thread of appreciation for it. I'm mighty grateful, my friend. Best regards, Brian Powell

[BruceinGa]

On the subject of racing, I thought some of you might find this photo interesting:

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by BruceinGa

On the subject of racing, I thought some of you might find this photo interesting:

wow, dangerous sport for the fans

[BruceinGa]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

wow, dangerous sport for the fans

Yes, 20+ were killed.

[Justus]

Glad to see this thread getting some action again. SO much information and history, thanks!

I've had these cards a while and decided to throw them in with a submission of football cards I had going to PSA. Got them back recently...

[irv]

Originally Posted by BruceinGa

Yes, 20+ were killed.

Wow! I assume that was a non sanctioned event or an event to showcase dragracing?

I use to follow NHRA religiously when we had ESPN and TNN but now all I get is reruns, occasionally.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by brian1961

Loved your write-ups, Eddie. While I am not into autographs much at all, I must say that the names you mentioned among the autographs were immensely impressive. Rarity is not good enough to describe how difficult it would be to find autographs of these long-deceased auto racing greats. Racing drivers are wonderful with their fans, and do sign easily for the most part, but some of these guys have been gone since before I was born, or at least over 50 years.

Great story on Bill Vukovich, which I well remember reading on the 1953 500. The official film called that race "The Hottest 500". In the film Carl Scarborough is seen driving slowly into the pits, for the last time. The look on his face was terrible. What struck me was that he was wearing a solid black uniform, which would exacerbate the effect of the sunlight on him, contributing to his demise. How sad.

The autograph that struck home the most was Dave MacDonald, one of the greatest Corvette racers of all time, as well as that of the Cobra, King Cobra, and the Cobra Daytona coupe. I dearly wish he had taken Jim Clark's advice to him to just get out of that car and walk away from it, referring of course to the infamous Mickey Thompson car that took his life, and was the worst-looking accident in Indy history. To think he survived the accident, and died in the hospital a few hours later.......

Hope you're doing well, Eddie, and thanks for buying my book, and contributing to the thread of appreciation for it. I'm mighty grateful, my friend. Best regards, Brian Powell

Thanks for the kind words, Brian. Both those autograph books were amazing, The NASCAR book even had a guy like Frenchman Jo Schlesser, who only made two career NASCAR starts (he finished 13th in the '64 Daytona 500) before being killed in the '68 French Grand Prix in a Honda that John Surteees refused to drive because he called it a potential "deathtrap."

The seller has listed all kind of amazing racing items in recent months. He has had a couple different autographs of Friday Hassler (killed at Daytona in 1972), LeeRoy Yarbrough (institutionalized in a mental hospital in 1980 and dead four years later), Marshall Teague (killed while attempting to set a closed-course speed record at Daytona in 1959), Red Byron (NASCAR's first champion died of a heart attack in 1960), Mark Donahue (killed at the '75 Austrian Grand Prix), Modified stars Richie Evans and Charlie Jarzombek (killed in 1985 and 1987, respectively, at Martinsville), Curtis Turner (killed in a plane crash in 1970), Bruce McLaren (killed testing in England in 1970), Pedro Rodriguez (killed in a sports car race in West Germany in 1971), Sprint Car driver Johnny Thomson (killed in Allentown, Pa., in 1960), Gordon Smiley (killed in a brutal 1982 Indy crash), Barney Oldfield (died in 1946), Rodney Orr (killed at Daytona in 1994), Al Holbert (killed in a 1988 plane crash), Bruce Jacobi (died in 1987 of injuries from a 1985 Daytona flip), Butch Lindley (died in 1990 of injuries in a 1985 DeSoto, Fla., crash) and Grant Adcox (killed at Atlanta in 1989)

I don't know if I ever mentioned this before, but I highly recommend Art Garner's book on the 1964 Indy 500, "Black Noon." The book is incredible, and debunks some of the long-standing myths surrounding the tragic '64 race. The families of Eddie Sachs and Dave MacDonald both endorsed the book. MacDonald's widow is still alive and contributed to the book. Garner used over 30 sources for the book, including every living driver from the '64 500.

https://www.amazon.com/Black-Noon-Ye...rds=black+noon

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by brian1961

The autograph that struck home the most was Dave MacDonald, one of the greatest Corvette racers of all time, as well as that of the Cobra, King Cobra, and the Cobra Daytona coupe. I dearly wish he had taken Jim Clark's advice to him to just get out of that car and walk away from it, referring of course to the infamous Mickey Thompson car that took his life, and was the worst-looking accident in Indy history. To think he survived the accident, and died in the hospital a few hours later.......

Funny you should mention the Jim Clark quote. It has been several years since I have read the Garner book, but that is one of the things Garner discusses in the book. Garner indicated that the famous Clark quote may not have actually ever happened. Garner put an amazing amount of research into the book, and he could not find anyone who could confirm that the discussion ever happened (not even MacDonald's wife). Garner wrote in the book that Clark and MacDonald were acquaintances at best, and Clark did not have the type of personality to just go up to other racers and freely dispense advice.

Who knows what the truth really is?

Garner also went into depth on the career of MacDonald (and Sachs as well), and how a great racer has now been reduced to being known solely for causing the worst crash in Indy history. The Thompson cars had battled problems all month long with the front end lifting off the ground and becoming uncontrollable.

[brian1961]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

Funny you should mention the Jim Clark quote. It has ben several years I have read the Garner book, but that is one of the things Garner discusses in the book Garner indicated that the famous Clark quote may not have actually ever happened. Garner put an amazing amount of research into the book, and he could not find anyone who could confirm that the discussion ever happened (not even MacDonald's wife). Garner wrote in the book that Clark and MacDonald were acquaintances at best, and Clark did not have the type of personality to just go up to other racers and freely dispense advice.

Who knows what the truth really is?

Garner also went into depth on the career of MacDonald (and Sachs as well), and how a great racer has now been reduced to being known solely for causing the worst crash in Indy history. The Thompson cars had battled problems all month long with the front end lifting off the ground and becoming uncontrollable.

Eddie, it would have been nice if Mr. Garner could have pinned down the quote / conversation between Mr. Clark and Mr. MacDonald. I wonder if Jim observed the skittish nature of the Thompson car when Dave was driving it, and felt compelled to have a private conversation with him. Even if it wasn't Jim's nature to offer such advice, it seemed like everyone was disturbed by the cars even before the race. There are other factors. Dave's driving style was daring. He liked to hang it out and tiger. Mickey Thompson had thought he was being savvy by not ever topping up the tank during practice, nor allowing Dave to turn many complete laps in the erratic car, Mickey's reasoning being that he did not want his competitors to know what the car was capable of. As it was, Dave MacDonald was a great racer, but this was his first Indy 500. It all spelled doom. Dave needed experience in the car of many laps to get really comfortable with it. Also, as I recall reading in the feature article in SPORTS CARS INTERNATIONAL, Dave liked to hang it out. So, on the second lap Dave is rushing through the field to get to the front where he believed he could run, and the car has a completely full tank of fuel, which he was NOT accustomed to driving this thing with, and then he loses it as you well know coming out of the last turn.

I get sickened writing these words because after many years I became a big Dave MacDonald fan due to his work for Carroll Shelby and his Cobras, King Cobras, and the Cobra Daytona Coupe. Carroll Shelby was very, very upset about the loss of his driver and friend. The Daytona Coupe is the one of the most valuable American cars ever, based on its auction price several years ago.

Some of those names you mentioned----Marshall Teague, Fireball Roberts, Pedro Rodriguez, Mark Donohue, and Bobby Thomson----

It is indeed a cruel sport. The sight and sound of the cars, whether they're racing or right before your eyes, drives us car nuts on, I would say.

----Brian Powell

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by brian1961

Eddie, it would have been nice if Mr. Garner could have pinned down the quote / conversation between Mr. Clark and Mr. MacDonald. I wonder if Jim observed the skittish nature of the Thompson car when Dave was driving it, and felt compelled to have a private conversation with him. Even if it wasn't Jim's nature to offer such advice, it seemed like everyone was disturbed by the cars even before the race. There are other factors. Dave's driving style was daring. He liked to hang it out and tiger. Mickey Thompson had thought he was being savvy by not ever topping up the tank during practice, nor allowing Dave to turn many complete laps in the erratic car, Mickey's reasoning being that he did not want his competitors to know what the car was capable of. As it was, Dave MacDonald was a great racer, but this was his first Indy 500. It all spelled doom. Dave needed experience in the car of many laps to get really comfortable with it. Also, as I recall reading in the feature article in SPORTS CARS INTERNATIONAL, Dave liked to hang it out. So, on the second lap Dave is rushing through the field to get to the front where he believed he could run, and the car has a completely full tank of fuel, which he was NOT accustomed to driving this thing with, and then he loses it as you well know coming out of the last turn.

I get sickened writing these words because after many years I became a big Dave MacDonald fan due to his work for Carroll Shelby and his Cobras, King Cobras, and the Cobra Daytona Coupe. Carroll Shelby was very, very upset about the loss of his driver and friend. The Daytona Coupe is the one of the most valuable American cars ever, based on its auction price several years ago.

Some of those names you mentioned----Marshall Teague, Fireball Roberts, Pedro Rodriguez, Mark Donohue, and Bobby Thomson----

It is indeed a cruel sport. The sight and sound of the cars, whether they're racing or right before your eyes, drives us car nuts on, I would say.

----Brian Powell

Brian, after you mentioned the video of the 1953 500, I went to YouTube and watched "The Hottest 500." The color footage is really clear for 1953. Marshall Teague was actually the driver in the black uniform who looked terrible upon climbing out of his car. That is not a criticism in any way,; just an observation that I would have thought Teague was the driver that passed away due to the heat. I had read in the past, however, that Scarborough's body temperature was 104 degrees when he climbed out of his car.

The Garner book talked about Eddie Sachs stating before the race that he did not want to be anywhere near the Thompson cars because he was worried they were a wreck waiting to happen. MacDonald passed six cars on the opening lap, then crashed on the second lap. The Garner book talks about Thompson not running a full fuel load all month long.

A couple of the more interesting contributors to the Garner book were Humpy Wheeler and Bobby Unser. Wheeler was attending his first 500, as a young tire rep for Firestone. The Sachs/MacDonald crash happened at the opposite end of the track from Wheeler, so all he could see was massive black smoke and flames high in the sky. For the next several minutes, Wheeler thought the grandstands were on fire and a replay of the 1955 Le Mans disaster had just occurred.

Bobby Unser was knocked out of the race in the Sachs/MacDonald inferno. Unser related that many of the other drivers in the field looked visibly sick by what had just happened, and he was pretty certain a couple of drivers did not have the stomach to continue on when the race would inevitably restart. Unser walked up and down pit lane telling car owners that if their driver did not want to restart the race, he was willing to take their place. Unser found no open seats, however.

[Justus]

LOL, my snipe wasn't activated either. Wow, impressive item.

Originally Posted by Bored5000

I am blown away by the ending price of an amazing autograph book of 1960s NASCAR racers that ended on eBay Wednesday night. The seller "youwin1415" has been listing all kinds of awesome racing items in recent months. I am not really an autograph guy, but the autograph book that ended tonight was just incredible -- I am still shocked at the $2,605 ending price. I figured the book would probably be around an $800-1,000 item, but two bidders put in huge snipes. My snipe never fired and was blown out of the water.

The book is just amazng, with dozen of autographs, including Fireball Roberts, Ralph Earnhardt, Dave MacDonald, Bobby Isaac, Billy Wade, Tiny Lund, Wendell Scott, Bobby Marshman, Jimmy Pardue, Jo Schlesser and tons of big name racers who did not perish in the '60s.

Just from looking at the list of names in the listing, there are at least seven drivers on the list who lost their lives racing in the 1960s.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-NASC...vip=true&rt=nc