Xmas Rack Packs

[bradmar48]

What is your opinion or feelings about the baseball Christmas Rack Packs that are being sold on EBay? Are they real packs from that year or ones that are created to look like they are from that year. If they are real how easy are they to be searched or altered. I've never purchased any because it seems like there is an endless supply from some of the dealers that sell them.

Keith

[scmavl]

You may want to do a search on this to get more detailed info, as it's been discussed in depth before. But the quick answer is: NO. They were put together years later in most cases (I think they weren't even sold until the late 60's or so) by a third party. None of them are actually new cards put together that year. From what I've heard, there are usually no stars and most commons only grade a 5 or 6 at best. Don't expect any 10's, as the cards had been around a bit before they were packaged. Most collectors feel these are WAAAAY overpriced for what you actually get. And worse than the unopened ones are the fake ones people are making and selling now. True rack packs (made by Topps, not a 3rd party) did not come out until 1960.

Hope that helps.

EDIT: Someone opened a Xmas pack in another thread and posted scans, you may want to try and find it. I think it was a '52 pack.

[bradmar48]

Thanks, I learned several things from what you said. The oldest rack I've ever seen at any of the shows that I'm made in the last 23 years including 2 Nationals was a 1967. That's why I had my doubts about the older Christmas racks that were showing up.

Keith

[tigers6884]

I have seen these up until 1969 and they may be even newer ones around. There are various theories about the origins.

One theory is they were legitimately packaged yearly by a company other than Topps until the early 60s. During the 80s, another individual began selling them using the same packaging as the originals used.

Regardless they are not a Topps rack and the hidden cards are typically o/c. I often thought about getting a 67 rack but unknowing collectors will bid them up to a level which is simply not worth it, at least to me.

[David W]

I picked this up with Lou Brock on it a few years ago.

[buckydent]

I don't trust them either. Typically they were indeed put together after the production year, and in some cases years later. The trick to get you to bite was to put one or two star cards on the outside showing, with mostly commons on the inside. I bought a 1971 rack in the series with Clemente and Mays, the Mays was showing but the Clemente inside was 90/10 top bottom centering and the rest garbage including doubles in the same pack ! As for searching - the sides of the pack need to be nice and tight, if they are not and you can shuffle each of the cards slightly, to see the players in sequence, the pack has been searched. I have a 1981 rack pack box of football, not as vintage as the 1971 topps baseball and did get two Montanas ( one showing on the bottom of a pack and one inside - but some of the packs were not tight and were clearly searched which was upsetting ), but I bought it long before football cards were worth anything, which explains why I still got two Montanas ( there were no Paytons, Bradshaws etc ). I can't comment on graded packs aside from those showing a star on top which look pretty cool.

[ALR-bishop]

I have a run of them from 52 to 63 ( also have regular wax packs from those years). I bought them from Mark Murphy ( 53 to 62) several years ago. I knew they were repackaged cards when I bought them. I bought them for entertainment and the mystery. I have always thought it interesting that many say they were repackaged cards sold by a retailer....with different theories about exactly when. But yet no one ( as far as I know) can say for sure what retailer(s), where, and when. I agree there has probably been a lot of further "repackaging" since. Hopefully someday someone will be able to document exactly how these things first appeared. Murphy either did not know or would not say

[steve B]

I bought a 58 just for the curiosity of it.

I wouldn't have thought the cards would be well centered, so many weren't.
I'd have to think they came from unsold cards, or cards leftover after packaging. Back before tight inventory controls most places overproduced, or produced a certain ammount of whatever they were making. So if they printed a million cards and then only got orders for 950,000 they's have loads of leftovers. There were a lot of small businesses that made decent money buying overruns for very little to repackage or just resell if packaged already.
And many still do, there's just less manufacuring overruns and more overstocks of poor selling stuff. (Treat Inc in Cards, and I think a couple others)

What company made those mesh christmas stockings full of trinkety toys and gold coin chocolates? These Christmas packs strike me as being similar.

With cards coming out so early now I've thought there would be someone rewrapping cards with a happy easter wrapper......Nothing so far.

Steve B

[mintacular]

double post

[mintacular]

Wouldn't buy them with a 10-foot pole

[tigers6884]

Odd how no distributor or manufacturer information is listed on the label. Does anyone know which stores actually carried these back in the day?

[David W]

I remember going to K Mart once in the 70's and they had a big bin full of 75 Topps baseball repackaged. I think there were also non sport in the same package or in different packages.

I was just a kid and didn't have much money but remember buying several of them. I know they were post 1975 because I thought it was cool to buy "Old" cards at K mart.

They weren't Christmas racks, I forget what the label on them was.

[ALR-bishop]

Guess I will keep mine then

[ALR-bishop]

Take a look at their description of lot 176 in their current auction

[Dan 33]

thanks for the info I was alawys curious about the Christmas packs

[Griffins]

I consider them as legit as '70-'72 grocery cellos- in other words, complete fakes.
Disappointing that Legendary's copy doesn't point this out.

[ALR-bishop]

I am also surprised Anthony, that without qualification they state that they were packed in the 1950s and 1960s and are "untouched". I have seen them from 1952 through 1963 ( I confess I have put together a full run of them for fun). I had assumed they were packed in the late 60s or early 70s but have also heard the 80s. No one seems to have any real definitive answer. And, I have always thought it strange that although most descriptions say they were repackaged by a "retailer(s)", no one can pin down exactly who those retailers or retailer was and over what periods they were actually offered. I also suspect there may have been several repackaging efforts subsequently

I am amazed that Legendary is being as definite in their description as they are, without any further documentation of their claims

[lutherlafy]

I have seen these sell for crazy prices.
Those poor suckers through the years that buy these are not too smart.
Don't even think about buying one.
Anybody can make these up.

[ALR-bishop]

Everyone has their own opinion on these. I like Anthony have a regular Topps pack run ( 1951 to 2011), so these are just an oddity for me. But I guess I can plead guilty to being a "not too smart sucker". I have always understood them to involve repackaged, previously handled cards. The real question for me is when they were really packaged, originally, and who, if anyone , really retailed them

The reason I resurrected this thread though was to point out a major auction house is currently touting one and doing so with some fairly bold claims about it....with no real substantiation for those claims

[wfubob]

Any thoughts on buying the cards pulled from rack packs as common set fillers? In other words are the cards themselves legit, and worthy of purchasing at a price equivalent to, say, EX commons?

[Republicaninmass]

pulled a few psa 7's, but at a BIG cost

[smtjoy]

The problems I have with these are-

1- No way to tell between the ones that were packaged in the late 60-70's vs what I feel are ones made by today.

2- Because these were not made by Topps, they do not require any authentication and that gives the resealers the full green light to do as they please. Heck the cards inside could be trimmed and the buyer would have no recourse. Why reseal a pack when you can just make these up?

3- 10 years ago it was rare to even see one or two of these, now they are common every week on ebay which makes me believe that nearly all we see are recently made ones.

4- Watch as more and more of these show up until the market is flooded and enough people get burnt.

They do have a value but I would base it on getting 9 vg common cards.

[ALR-bishop]

I agree with all you points Scott. In fact, I do not think it has ever really been established when the original repackaging was done and by whom. Mark Murphy introduced them into the hobby but neither he nor anyone associated with him could or would ever say what retailer(s) handled them and who did the repackaging and when. Initially Murphy said the packs he obtained ran from 54 to 63, but later 52s and 53s also surfaced.

But, I think the mystery and uncertainty is also part of their allure. After all, people gamble in Vegas and play the lottery, even though almost everyone loses

[ALR-bishop]

A 52 with Robinson showing just went for $ 6 K + on ebay. A 52 with Spahn showing for over $ 1 K, and there is currently a 53 with Mantle showing that is close to $ 2 K

[tigers6884]

The logos and art on these racks always gave me the impression of Christmas stockings filled with junk that I used to see in stores.

On the LH side is the back of a rack currently for sale.

The image on the RH side is an item currently for sale in bulk quantities on a China E-commerce site.

The art for the bow, wreath and merry Christmas logo is pretty close, at least to my eye.

If I looked real hard I could probably find the header card as well.

Jim

[GrayGhost]

They are garbage. the cards are real, but they were packed by third parties and most people Ive seen that open those get nothing, or cards that are only in EX or so shape. the really Unscrupulous ones have a star on top, and the dealers inflate the price accordingly.

Since these were NOT done by Topps, nothing should be trusted. Unless u get em real cheap, not worth it.

[ALR-bishop]

Scott---they are clearly secondary market items. And no doubt whatever they were originally, they have been redone, remade and repackaged since. But, the question is where and how did they originally come to be.

When Mark Murphy first surfaced them several years ago he claimed they were cards bought from Topps in bulk from a 3d party sometime around 1982 and packaged for sale by a retailer or retailers. He and his business partner originally said the packs covered 1954 to 1963. Later he said the 3d party "found" some from 1952 and 1953. They said anything after 1963 was created by yet someone else unknown.

They did not know who the original re packer was, or which specific stores may have retailed them. I know people who say the "remember" seeing them in stores, but can not be specific about where and when. Some say they were packaged in the 60s and 70s. As I said, I was told around 1982 by Murphy and his associate.

The mystery to me here is not what you will find in the packs ( mid to mid + grade cards, mostly commons), but when did they originally come to be and how. I just think of it as an interesting hobby mystery

[daves_resale_shop]

I recently came across a slew of them in a local craigslist post... did some research and heard from a reputable dealer friend that these were still being remanufactured to this day... Apparently the manufacturing equipment and supplies are still available...

[GoldenAge50s]

If anyone thinks these aren't being made today in someone's basement they are only fooling themselves! All you need is the net-like packaging & a stapler.
They are coming out of the woodwork on EBay.

One guy has made & sold so many his ID is christmasrackpacksatyahoocom !!

[ALR-bishop]

Agreed, Fred...but where did they first come from ? Has the source stayed the same, or were they originally a real second hand retail product and if so how, where and when. I need a hobby private detective I guess.

[tigers6884]

Mark was getting a good price for these racks at one time.

He was asking 600 and up for these racks back on his website in 2001

Jim

[ALR-bishop]

Jim---I remember his ads in SCD

[4815162342]

Whatever happened to Mark Murphy? I bought a few unopened 80s basketball packs years ago from one of his ads in Tuff Stuff.

[ALR-bishop]

He still has a web page...bbckid.com

[hammer]

One wintry Christmas Eve in 1953 Santa Claus in a Big Red Cap with Eight Tiny Reindeer and Elves were bringing packs and packs of Unopened repackaged 52 Topps cards to every good boy and girl who wrote in their Christmas wish list that year for packs which came with his own personalized heading at the top that we now call Christmas packs.
The End.

[GrayGhost]

Originally Posted by hammer

One wintry Christmas Eve in 1953 Santa Claus in a Big Red Cap with Eight Tiny Reindeer and Elves were bringing packs and packs of Unopened repackaged 52 Topps cards to every good boy and girl who wrote in their Christmas wish list that year for packs which came with his own personalized heading at the top that we now call Christmas packs.
The End.

[ALR-bishop]

I knew it....I always knew it