1952 Wheaties Need Help Verifying Authenticity

[Chesapeake]

I need help with these 1952 Wheaties. From what I have read they look ok but I want to make sure before I list them. Thanks for your help.

[Volod]

Can't imagine there are fakes of this set floating around. Even the major-sport stars generally bring twenty to forty bucks VG to EX. Snead, Pollard? Why would some intrepid counterfeiter bother with those? I don't think you have anything to worry about.

[Chesapeake]

http://sportscardinfo.wordpress.com/...heaties-cards/

Thanks, I was reading the above link. I came across them in a recent lot I bought and I just don't know a great deal about them. I always try to find out before I list anything that I am not familiar with.

[Volod]

Thanks for the link. I guess I stand corrected. Had not heard of any counterfeiting involving this set, but looks like nothing is beyond those guys.

[GoldenAge50s]

That is the 1st time I've ever heard of fake '52's also. They sure don't offer anything concrete about them to convince me!

[Volod]

I just looked through my incomplete set and the Musial portrait fits the warning-flag criteria provided by that site - it has snow-white borders and doesn't smell like old cardboard. Hmmm, now I'm wondering - paid around twenty bucks for it some time ago. If that card is a fake, it was very artfully executed, as it appears in all other aspects to be genuine.

[Volod]

Ok, scanned the Musial, along with a definitely genuine Williams for comparison. The scan doesn't really reflect the difference. The Musial has brilliant white borders, while Ted shows the typical off-white, slightly grayish tone of 60-year-old cardboard. Scanned the backs, but the images reveal no contrast. To the naked eye, the Musial back is about the same gray tone as the Ted. Thickness is indistinguishable. My smeller isn't what it used to be, but the Ted seems to have that funky ancient paper aroma that we all know, while the Musial is almost sterile - maybe somewhat new smelling. Like I said, however, if this Musial is a counterfeit, it sure fooled me. The real concern for me now is that it just looks like it was cut out of a Wheaties box yesterday.

[Chesapeake]

Hmmm... I am taking mine off auction until this gets figured out. Steve, look to the right of Stan's cap. The white area in between the background and the cap. Is that suppose to be there?

[steve B]

The white area is just the edge of the orange showing since it's a bit off register to the right.

Pretty interesting topic.

I think the more white backgrounds are probably from boxes with a white layer printed before the orange and blue. Or printed on a white rather than cream surfaced stock.

Here's a complete box from Legendary that looks very light.
http://legendaryauctions.com/LotDeta...and-Campanella

Maybe a late year change? I found pics of a couple 53 boxes that had the license plates and both of those looked white.

The white would add a bit of cost, but would also make the boxes look better on the shelf- brighter, cleaner, more modern.

I also comared it to my Musial, and while most fakes or reprints have a lack of detail and crispness, yours is printed a bit better than mine, with a bit more detail.

Steve B

[Volod]

Steve B: Thanks for your observations. I'm beginning to wonder about the website that Alex provided a link to. That is, I can't find an actual article that details a case of 1952 Wheaties counterfeiting. A poster on the website, Ross Chrissman, whoever that is, merely states that "there was a case a few years ago." And then someone commenting on his claim states that pure white borders and lack of old paper smell is a sure-fire tip-off. This is hardly conclusive evidence of anything in my opinion. As you noted, my Musial has dpi definition that seems to gainsay any likelihood of counterfeiting on a set as generally low-priced as this one. And I think you're right that the difference in toning probably dates back to 1952. You can see the same difference in cardboard stock quality in the Topps 1951 cards: pure white stock vs cream stock.

[Chesapeake]

Steve, Here is one from my batch scanned by itself.

[brett 75]

According to the Standard Catalog the set was extensively counterfeited around 2002. All of the ones I have ever seen look toned in color. The pure white looks to good to be true. Brett

[steve B]

Here's my Musial. Cream stock, and I've had it since well before 2002.

Side by side with the white one. You can see where the printing block was getting a little worn with mine, the white dots to the left of the STL on the hat are gone, the shoulder on the left side is slightly less detailed because all the lines are thicker. That's the sort of detail that's hard to add in if you're faking something.

There's a few details of the printing method that I could probably see in a bigger higher res scan. It shows on the Snead Alex scanned.

I wouldn't have any question about the ones Alex has shown. (I need all of those BTW)

Steve B

[Volod]

I'm with you Steve as far as the feasibility of faking such detail goes. It just seems way too technically difficult for the potential profit return on this particular card. Searching online, I could not find the Lemke research on the reported counterfeiting of this set.
Maybe, if Bob notices this, he will help us out.

[Volod]

So, I guess, in the absence of any further comment or evidence, the reported counterfeiting of the 1952 Wheaties set is somewhat questionable, no?

[GoldenAge50s]

I'll throw in my .02¢ worth here. I have had a near-set of these guys since I was a kid & cut them off the cereal boxes myself. I just looked thru all of them and most all of mine remain pretty nice & white w/ only a hint of the dark toning usually found today.

Maybe it's the way I stored them all these yrs, but here are 4 at random I scanned. All have the typical grayish backs, some w/ & some w/out the stains shown in original post.

While the Musial in question sure has a ultra snow white border, mine are close to all white also and I can guarantee w/out question that they have been mine since day of issue.

[Volod]

Thanks for your input, Fred. I'm still open to some convincing evidence of counterfeiting from the 2002 report, but as of now, based on the comments above, I'm skeptical about that.

[Bob Lemke]

I no longer have access to the issues of SCD in which the details of the 1952 Wheaties counterfeits were presented. My recollection is that they were tied in with some fly by night grading company, as well as counterfeit 1963 Bazookas. There was an East Coast dealer who had his hands in all of it, but disclainmed responsibility.

It was my opinion then, and now, that the snow white Wheaties are modern counterfeits. I seem to remember the weight of the card stock differed from the originals, but again, that was 10+ years ago. Because the Wheaties art was line art, rather than photos, it was very easy to make convincing fakes.

Since known genuine examples are so inexpensive, why take the risk by buying a white-bordered card?

[GoldenAge50s]

In view of what Bob says, and taking another good look at the Ultra white Stan, I'm convinced it is a fake.

Study the contrast between the blue & white area on the hat right of STL--white dots show up and the white bleeds too brightly thru the blue on the neck, face & hat brim. In other words, the white dominates & the blue is weak.
Same goes for the wide uni stripe on Stan's right shoulder (lower left corner)--the white shows thru on the ultra white, but is solid blue on the original.

On all my originals, the blue dominates over the white---no washed out feeling when you look at an original.

I also don't buy that there were varying grades of cardboard used for Wheaties boxes. Mine came off an array of boxes bought at different times & every one is the same stock.

[steve B]

Here's a few links showing some of what I was looking at.

The first is a full 52 box, family size and very light. Hard to tell if it's white or just not toned from age.

The second is a 52 panel from a different size, obviously the normal color.

And the third is a 51 single serving box clearly showing the white, which wasn't used on any of the parts of the box that wouldn't be seen.

http://legendaryauctions.com/LotDeta...and-Campanella

http://www.auctionscc.com/archive/200711/day2/397/#a

http://www.wheatiesking.com/wp-conte...ny-Lujack1.jpg

I'm still on the fence about the very white Musial, it has some differences in the actual printing from mine, but shows a few similarities. Oddly the blue seems nearly perfect, and that would be the hardest part to copy. It's a bit more crisp than the one I have, but still looks good. The orange is bugging me for a few reasons. The one I have has very clear and straight borders, the white one looks slightly wavy and a bit sloppy on the inking. It's still hard to tell if it's typographed for sure, but sometimes a crisp print will be like that.

Usually you can see the ink darker or thicker at the edges of a letter or object. It's called squeezeout literally an ege of ink that gets squeezed out from between the print block and the paper. Lightly inked and/or lightly impressed and it might not show.

If the white one is fake, it's very impressive.

And I'll probably start looking for Wheaties more actively now. Another good puzzle you guys have got me into

Steve B

[Volod]

Anyone know where I can get hold of a scale that measures in micrograms? I've studied the white Musial against several other cards in the set that are obviously genuine, and can't detect any difference in the weight or thickness or back tone of the cardstock.
Above, Bob observed: "Since known genuine examples are so inexpensive, why take the risk by buying a white-bordered card?" My question is: "Since known genuine examples are so inexpensive, why bother counterfeiting them?" Did the scam artists plan to reap enormous profits from buyers of this set? I paid $22 for the Musial on ebay a few years ago, so if it is fake, didn't get taken for much, I guess.

[brett 75]

Maybe it was one of two possibilities as to why it was reproduced. Easy to copy and most likely cheap. Making a couple bucks off of each card would add up over the course of a year or two traveling to shows with unsuspecting collectors not knowing they were buying fakes. Or how about reproduction similar to Broder style cards that weren't original intended to deceive but to be cheap copies of the originals? If you like the card then enjoy it for what it is .... A baseball card . Brett

[Volod]

Originally Posted by brett 75

Maybe it was one of two possibilities as to why it was reproduced. Easy to copy and most likely cheap. Making a couple bucks off of each card would add up over the course of a year or two traveling to shows with unsuspecting collectors not knowing they were buying fakes. Or how about reproduction similar to Broder style cards that weren't original intended to deceive but to be cheap copies of the originals? If you like the card then enjoy it for what it is .... A baseball card . Brett

but don't know that it would be cheap and easy to produce a counterfeit of the quality of the white Musial. As SteveB pointed out, it would require a new print block and commercial quality printing press - a simple digital scan would not suffice. Unless someone can come up with documented evidence of the counterfeiting, I'll enjoy the card as a carefully preserved genuine article, thanks very much.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Volod

but don't know that it would be cheap and easy to produce a counterfeit of the quality of the white Musial. As SteveB pointed out, it would require a new print block and commercial quality printing press - a simple digital scan would not suffice. Unless someone can come up with documented evidence of the counterfeiting, I'll enjoy the card as a carefully preserved genuine article, thanks very much.

Actually you wouldn't absolutely need a commercial quality press. For these it could be done with nearly anything, even a vise. It would be slow but it would work.

Making the block to print from with that sort of accuracy would be the problem. It's doable, but would take some time. Maybe a whole lot of time. The orange would be easy, the blue not so easy.

Someday I'll have to give it a try and see if I can get a decent result. Done in different colors and maybe with "reprint" added to the design of course to prevent problems. Maybe even a modern player instead.

I have a faked E121 that I got in 1978, and that would have required some professional equipment. So faking wheaties certainly would have been possible in 2002. It just seems like much too much effort for too little to produce a fake that nice. Seriously, aside from the difference in stock I don't see much at all that doesn't look just right.

Steve B

[Volod]

Interesting info Steve. Thanks for your expertise.