Frustrated with 3rd party authen. But not an autograph expert. Your thoughts

[Coralfarmer84]

So I purchased an autographed Lebron James jersey because to me it looked good. Send it to JSA and they tell me inconclusive and issue me a store credit if you will. (Frustrating because if you can't tell me yes or no why are you still charging me?) I still felt it was good so I decided to do a quick pinion before shipping it out to PSA. Well 8 min after I submitted it it got likely not genuine. I know it's a quick opinion but unless you really know the signature how can you review the 8-10 photos in such a short period. I just don't see how within 8 min it can get in front of the right person, them be doing nothing at that time, open think it stinks and resubmit in that time unless it was a terrible example. In this situation I don't believe thats the case, its either a decent fake or a good signature IMO. My opinion is the signature is good but at this point I have no choice but to send it back to seller. Attached is a photo of a JSA one I already own vs the white one that had no authentication. Your thoughts....

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Coralfarmer84

So I purchased an autographed Lebron James jersey because to me it looked good. Send it to JSA and they tell me inconclusive and issue me a store credit if you will. (Frustrating because if you can't tell me yes or no why are you still charging me?) I still felt it was good so I decided to do a quick pinion before shipping it out to PSA. Well 8 min after I submitted it it got likely not genuine. I know it's a quick opinion but unless you really know the signature how can you review the 8-10 photos in such a short period. I just don't see how within 8 min it can get in front of the right person, them be doing nothing at that time, open think it stinks and resubmit in that time unless it was a terrible example. In this situation I don't believe thats the case, its either a decent fake or a good signature IMO. My opinion is the signature is good but at this point I have no choice but to send it back to seller. Attached is a photo of a JSA one I already own vs the white one that had no authentication. Your thoughts....

Not a auto guy but I think this is the way the picture shows them best.

[Coralfarmer84]

Another

[alifaxwa2]

I know nothing about his signature, but what I first noticed is that if you align your eyes so the diagonal of the jersey number is the horizon; the JSA auth jersey loops at the end (shaped like an 8 and a b) appear tilted right. In the other jersey, they appear tilted to the left.
That to me is a substantial difference (but, I don't know if he normally varies this lean or not).

Having said that. I find PSA/DNA QO to be very negative heavy. My purchase and submit pass ratio is very high. My QO pass ratio is very low.

[packs]

I don't think quick opinion is always a good route to take or put much faith in unless the signature is an obvious fake. They aren't going to spend any time looking at the item.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

I am no expert, but have studied his signature a decent amount. That's close but vastly different. Looks like an attempted pre-Heat signature.

One on the left looks off in his last name. Usually with his signatures around the late 2000's he stretches out those letters more like the one with the JSA sticker. The one that failed is more upright with that top loop where he typically stretches it out more. That being said, I don't like it.

[Coralfarmer84]

I appreciate the feedback so far

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by packs

I don't think quick opinion is always a good route to take or put much faith in unless the signature is an obvious fake. They aren't going to spend any time looking at the item.

""they" aren't going to spend any time",,,, not only that but who is "they"???,,
nobody knows that,, could be the guy who works the coffee truck or a member of the office cleanup crew.

[packs]

I don't really get hung up on who the who is. The point I was making was that a quick opinion is going to be quick by definition and to get a thorough look at your item you would have to pay the fee for the service.

[Coralfarmer84]

packs I get your point completely but upon quick look I would think they would err on the side of "likely genuine" to get the submission and the authentication fee and then fail it when I sent it in if it was looked at deeper. My opinion was this thing looks pretty good on its own and when placed side by side to an authenticated one you have to look for nuances so how could they fail it 8 minutes after the time I hit send. I'm shocked they even opened it that fast, must be crickets over there.

[packs]

True, but if they told everyone their item was likely genuine to get the full sub fee people would be upset by that too. Maybe the person did think it wasn't genuine and is doing you a favor. Or maybe they didn't spend much time on it at all and you should disregard. It's hard to know what's going on behind the scenes. Only real way to get a full opinion is take the leap if you feel that strongly about it.

[deeg23]

Who you bought it from could say a lot about the authenticity of the sig too. That being said, I don't think it's a genuine LeBron signature. I would definitely pass and wait for a better one!

[Klrdds]

Sorry to digress a bit but if PSA can screw up a regular opinion why would anyone ever do a quick opinion from them. The QOs have messed up many collectors later after they submitted their item back to PSA or JSA for a full letter LOA after the QO said good or likely authentic/genuine.
QOs are nothing more than a quick money maker for PSA in my opinion.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Klrdds

Sorry to digress a bit but if PSA can screw up a regular opinion why would anyone ever do a quick opinion from them. The QOs have messed up many collectors later after they submitted their item back to PSA or JSA for a full letter LOA after the QO said good or likely authentic/genuine.
QOs are nothing more than a quick money maker for PSA in my opinion.

+1, especially when the cost of the "hired help" on QO is probably quite low.

[Lordstan]

First off, I have no idea or experience with Lebron James autographs, but if I were presented the JSA one to use as an exemplar,l I would definitely think the other was not good. That is of course only comparing these two to each other. I came to that opinion within 5 minutes of looking at it. There are enough differences to me that I would pass.

The QO is always going to err on the side of caution as they cannot hold the item and are limited to the sellers, sometimes terrible photos. I agree that either way they err, people are going to complain. You complain about failing too quick, but if they had passed it, you bought and sent it in and then it failed, you would complain about them charging you for the service when they said it was good in the QO.

BTW, JSA charged you because they did do the work of evaluating your autograph. Just because they could not offer a definitive opinion doesn't mean they didn't fulfill their part of the deal which is evaluating your item.

[megalimey]

Originally Posted by Coralfarmer84

So I purchased an autographed Lebron James jersey because to me it looked good. Send it to JSA and they tell me inconclusive and issue me a store credit if you will. (Frustrating because if you can't tell me yes or no why are you still charging me?) I still felt it was good so I decided to do a quick pinion before shipping it out to PSA. Well 8 min after I submitted it it got likely not genuine. I know it's a quick opinion but unless you really know the signature how can you review the 8-10 photos in such a short period. I just don't see how within 8 min it can get in front of the right person, them be doing nothing at that time, open think it stinks and resubmit in that time unless it was a terrible example. In this situation I don't believe thats the case, its either a decent fake or a good signature IMO. My opinion is the signature is good but at this point I have no choice but to send it back to seller. Attached is a photo of a JSA one I already own vs the white one that had no authentication. Your thoughts....

with literally millions of fake / bogus signatures out there ,
1000's of people being ripped off due to bogus claims
"Certificate Of Authenticity by a "reputable company" is the only way to go
and some one has to be recognized as a Leader in sports signature authentication
JSA is regarded one of if not the best in the industry if you consider realized sales in auctions as a true litmus test
there are others but not as well regarded to the General buying public

[Klrdds]

Originally Posted by megalimey

with literally millions of fake / bogus signatures out there ,
1000's of people being ripped off due to bogus claims
"Certificate Of Authenticity by a "reputable company" is the only way to go
and some one has to be recognized as a Leader in sports signature authentication
JSA is regarded one of if not the best in the industry if you consider realized sales in auctions as a true litmus test
there are others but not as well regarded to the General buying public

Are you kidding me ???
You must be either an employee of JSA or a relative of his.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by klrdds

are you kidding me ???
You must be either an employee of jsa or a relative of his.

+1 lol!

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by megalimey

with literally millions of fake / bogus signatures out there ,
1000's of people being ripped off due to bogus claims
"Certificate Of Authenticity by a "reputable company" is the only way to go
...

For you that might work. What you don't know is not necessarily going to hurt you.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Runscott

For you that might work. What you don't know is not necessarily going to hurt you.

Sadly, it doesn't matter if its real, long as a certain someone says it is.

[packs]

You guys always rail against TPG but I don't see a real solution in what you guys offer up instead. A single person being an arbiter of authentication is extremely risky. If Bob Johnson is the single highest authority on autographs and Bob Johnson runs into some financial trouble as an individual person, he's liable to make some quick cash by authenticating his own bogus materials and capitalizing on his reputation. The same can be said for any single person. I'm all for better systems but the reality of the hobby is that PSA and JSA have a high standing with the collecting community at large, though serious collectors have issues with them. You can't deny that a PSA or JSA letter doesn't boost the value of an item vs. the same item without one.

[megalimey]

lol

[megalimey]

Originally Posted by packs

You guys always rail against TPG but I don't see a real solution in what you guys offer up instead. A single person being an arbiter of authentication is extremely risky. If Bob Johnson is the single highest authority on autographs and Bob Johnson runs into some financial trouble as an individual person, he's liable to make some quick cash by authenticating his own bogus materials and capitalizing on his reputation. The same can be said for any single person. I'm all for better systems but the reality of the hobby is that PSA and JSA have a high standing with the collecting community at large, though serious collectors have issues with them. You can't deny that a PSA or JSA letter doesn't boost the value of an item vs. the same item without one.

100% correct , the hobby has had many bad things happen especially during the 1990's hey day , hence the massive growth of submissions to PSA and JSA , and their continued recognition as being the best solution available
to know within a very high probability that you have the real deal
not just some old dude telling you his grand daddy owned it with no back up provenance

[RichardSimon]

Some will just keep drinking it.

[packs]

But what do you propose as a solution? How would you solve the issue of authentication accuracy and still meet demand of thousands of submissions in any one day?

[RichardSimon]

Many, but certainly not all, have a blind adherence to authenticators.
That is wrong. These authenticators are hardly infallible.
Just one very small example fyi, I could list others. I had an autograph album page with a very early example of well known signatures. To confirm my belief in the authenticity of the item I sent a copy of it to the best dealer that I know in the hobby and also to one of the very top collectors here on Net54. Both confirmed my thoughts, that the item was authentic.
One of the leading authentication companies turned it down. My customer kept it after I told him what had happened because he trusted my judgment and my other two sources.
I don't really know what could be done now but I know a system that is beyond corruption and one that is much more transparent would be at the top of my list for improving the current system.

[Klrdds]

When authenticating autographs for profit came into the hobby as a SOLE business model not as an adjunct to collecting or buying / selling autographs corruption also entered with at the same time. Also at the time their God - like infallible attitudes closely followed .
Trust dealers using 1 set of trained eyes NOT companies using multiple sets of untrained eyes .

[Lordstan]

MegaLimey is an employee of PSA I think. He said so in a thread about authenticating a 32WS Called Shot ticket last year.
He is obviously biased as his livelihood depends on them.

Richard and Kevin have said it the best. I can recall many really embarrassing moments for them that can be explained by either incompetence, laziness, or corruption. FOr example how about a 30K Ed Delahanty auto that was certed by both PSA and JSA where the name was misspelled. That is right a 30 thousand dollar auto that was misspelled but passed. Or an 1860 boxer that was certed by both without either having an exemplar(BTW, It was shown he was illiterate as he signed an official document the year after with an "X"). All true.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by Klrdds

When authenticating autographs for profit came into the hobby as a SOLE business model not as an adjunct to collecting or buying / selling autographs corruption also entered with at the same time. Also at the time their God - like infallible attitudes closely followed .
Trust dealers using 1 set of trained eyes NOT companies using multiple sets of untrained eyes .

+1 Well said, Kevin...

[megalimey]

LORDSTAN :so wise and so knowledgeable, so humble

[Coralfarmer84]

My frustration wasn't over if they are competent to authenticate, I think that its clear that they get it right most of the time which is important as there will always be human error and some forgeries are excellent.

My issue was that I don't think either company handled this properly. If you can't render an opinion you shouldn't charge someone, I was paying for their opinion. Its like hiring someone to paint your house, they charge you upfront, and then they say well we don't have a ladder tall enough to get the ceilings so here's a store credit for your next house to be painted. I have no problem paying if its not authentic.

I also take even greater issue with someone spending 30 seconds on something and then issuing an opinion. I am realistic I understand "quick pinion" is just that a quick opinion. In my case thou it was 8 min from my submission time. Not 8 min of looking at it. I don't think for 1 second they opened my message the moment I sent it. I would assume someone opened it minutes later and maybe spent a total of 1 minute looking at the signature. Again that may be all it takes for a crap signature and maybe the one I posted differs from the one I posted with authentication but if you look at Lebrons signatures on known examples of UDA from the UDA database you can see his signature varies quiet a bit from example to example.

I sent the jersey back and got a full refund. Its maddening because sure you can just spend more and get JSA or PSA pieces only but those pieces had to originate somewhere beforehand so surely someone "took the chance". I only was frustrated because in both cases I don't think i got what I paid for.

[Klrdds]

Originally Posted by megalimey

PSA is now closing their doors and going into selling HOT DOGS

We can only wish this were true.......

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by megalimey

LORDSTAN : based on your incredible ground breaking revelations and your overwhelming influence & impact on the Hobby PSA is now closing their doors and going into selling HOT DOGS

Please let this be a joke. Hot dogs are bad enough now we don't need them to be much worse.

[Lordstan]

Originally Posted by megalimey

LORDSTAN :so wise and so knowledgeable, no one would ever use PSA again after your amazing revaluations you are my hero!!!

Wow David,
You seem to change your mind a lot about what you want to say. It figures, considering how the TPAs change their mind about autos, that their employee would as well.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Please let this be a joke. Hot dogs are bad enough now we don't need them to be much worse.

Two things:

1) Current hot dog certification is working just fine, and I have no interest in finding a hologram sticker on the back of my frank.

2) No way David works for PSA. Think about it from the viewpoint of anyone in PSA's management who reads this thread.