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  #11  
Old 01-04-2019, 10:08 AM
Hatorade Hatorade is offline
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Andy

Yes, as Ben confirmed, those are two examples of the rectangles. The rectangles can be very faint as well as others that are more prominent. I was hoping someone could answer if this is an obstruction from something that was possibly a small piece of cardboard or from something else during the printing process. Would the area be progressively effected as the item got in the way and essentially caused a more prominent rectangular stamp on the cards from the area continually being blocked? Also, if there was an item obstructing the printing process once it was removed would the rectangular area instantly disappear? Anyone's help here would be greatly appreciated.

Ben

I think you are essentially correct on those green scribble versions. Is the attached image pretty close to version #3?

I also wanted to take step back and post a link to our fellow board member's site with a ton of info on the Marlboro errors. The site has been essential for knowledge on these cards and moving the general discussion forward on them. I think the site probably lead to some of the flip changes at BGS, which is really cool. There are 13 cards pictured in the article and I wanted to get Dylan, Ben and others' opinions regarding the cards pictured all being different variations or if, for example, the two green or red cards pictured are the same card with slight differences resulting from something that Fleer had done inadvertently.

https://junkwaxgems.wordpress.com/20...ro-variations/
Attached Images
File Type: jpg RJ 17.jpg (12.0 KB, 134 views)
File Type: jpg 6EB7BEE4-B49B-44BF-B0D2-4FE78F13720C.jpg (10.6 KB, 131 views)

Last edited by Hatorade; 01-04-2019 at 10:20 AM. Reason: Attached 2nd image
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  #12  
Old 01-04-2019, 01:20 PM
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bnorth bnorth is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatorade View Post
Andy

Yes, as Ben confirmed, those are two examples of the rectangles. The rectangles can be very faint as well as others that are more prominent. I was hoping someone could answer if this is an obstruction from something that was possibly a small piece of cardboard or from something else during the printing process. Would the area be progressively effected as the item got in the way and essentially caused a more prominent rectangular stamp on the cards from the area continually being blocked? Also, if there was an item obstructing the printing process once it was removed would the rectangular area instantly disappear? Anyone's help here would be greatly appreciated.

Ben

I think you are essentially correct on those green scribble versions. Is the attached image pretty close to version #3?

I also wanted to take step back and post a link to our fellow board member's site with a ton of info on the Marlboro errors. The site has been essential for knowledge on these cards and moving the general discussion forward on them. I think the site probably lead to some of the flip changes at BGS, which is really cool. There are 13 cards pictured in the article and I wanted to get Dylan, Ben and others' opinions regarding the cards pictured all being different variations or if, for example, the two green or red cards pictured are the same card with slight differences resulting from something that Fleer had done inadvertently.

https://junkwaxgems.wordpress.com/20...ro-variations/
Yes from your picture that looks like the 3rd version.

Dylan has a great site, the green scribble I have pictured is from his site. I have a horrible time getting scans that show the Marlboro section clearly.
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  #13  
Old 01-05-2019, 05:51 AM
Yastrzemski Sports Yastrzemski Sports is offline
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With the Johnson and Ripken there are several distinct variations made where the original plate was altered. That is clear.
It is important to keep in mind that cards are printed on a printing press - and it is an imperfect process. Sometimes there is too much of one color ink and too little of another. Sometimes there is ink spray. Sometimes a plate moves and the colors are out of register. There may also be human error involved. There may be bleeding, smudging, etc, etc. If you look at 100 examples of the any one card, you can find lighter, darker, blurry, crisp, yellow tint, red tint, and so on.
Johnson had a few different versions - but those are limited to the actual alterations on the plate. The others have to be classified as print defects.
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  #14  
Old 01-05-2019, 06:26 PM
jacksoncoupage jacksoncoupage is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yastrzemski Sports View Post
With the Johnson and Ripken there are several distinct variations made where the original plate was altered. That is clear.
It is important to keep in mind that cards are printed on a printing press - and it is an imperfect process. Sometimes there is too much of one color ink and too little of another. Sometimes there is ink spray. Sometimes a plate moves and the colors are out of register. There may also be human error involved. There may be bleeding, smudging, etc, etc. If you look at 100 examples of the any one card, you can find lighter, darker, blurry, crisp, yellow tint, red tint, and so on.
Johnson had a few different versions - but those are limited to the actual alterations on the plate. The others have to be classified as print defects.
While this is true for many scrutinized and popular variations, this is not so simple regarding the Randy Johnson changes. In fact, my blog noting 13 variations is just meant as a simplified guide to the amount of distinct “types” which there are definitely more than four of even when removing print flaw/plate shift type aberrations from the equation.

I have personally seen far more variations in these cards than I had at the point of publishing that article. If you take a decent size sampling of any one of the major “types” I.E. “red box” “green tint” etc etc, you’ll find that there are several variations within each. Real variations where alterations were made to the plate as efforts to obscure the sign. Shape of the bar over the word, box size, and saturation and density of coloring/masking over sign area and on and on. These are NOT the same as color tone differences due to different ink levels and plate alignment. After 16 years of studying thousands of copies of these cards, I am very confident that there exists at least a couple dozen unique versions of this card.

And finally, for the record, I am no longer confident that a clear version ever made its way into packs. The one and only image I’ve seen, also shown on my blog, no longer feels convincing to me that photoshop wasn’t involved. I’d like to be wrong and with this card, anything is possible but I remain skeptical.
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  #15  
Old 01-05-2019, 08:02 PM
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bnorth bnorth is offline
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[quote=jacksoncoupage;1842730]While this is true for many scrutinized and popular variations, this is not so simple regarding the Randy Johnson changes. In fact, my blog noting 13 variations is just meant as a simplified guide to the amount of distinct “types” which there are definitely more than four of even when removing print flaw/plate shift type aberrations from the equation.

I have personally seen far more variations in these cards than I had at the point of publishing that article. If you take a decent size sampling of any one of the major “types” I.E. “red box” “green tint” etc etc, you’ll find that there are several variations within each. Real variations where alterations were made to the plate as efforts to obscure the sign. Shape of the bar over the word, box size, and saturation and density of coloring/masking over sign area and on and on. These are NOT the same as color tone differences due to different ink levels and plate alignment. After 16 years of studying thousands of copies of these cards, I am very confident that there exists at least a couple dozen unique versions of this card.

And finally, for the record, I am no longer confident that a clear version ever made its way into packs. The one and only image I’ve seen, also shown on my blog, no longer feels convincing to me that photoshop wasn’t involved. I’d like to be wrong and with this card, anything is possible but I remain skeptical.[/QUOTE]

Is the supposed clear sign card pictured on you website the same one that ended up in a PSA slab. They look the same, but I can't find a pic of the PSA one right now.

I have never been comfortable with that card for a few reasons. The main one being that the only clear part of the sign is the white part. Because I know there is a real card out there I figured it was altered. If it was a real clear sign card everything would be clear. The cowboy would be easier to see and the top of the sign would be the bright red it is supposed to be.

There is another version like the one on the left but with way less red ink. I believe that version was altered to make the "clear sign" version. They look exactly the same except the white area has been cleaned up on the altered(IMHO) card.
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File Type: jpg rjclearsign.jpg (33.5 KB, 102 views)
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  #16  
Old 01-05-2019, 09:59 PM
Hatorade Hatorade is offline
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Here is a copy of the clear version in the PSA slab that I saved from another thread. I’ve also attached a photo of the Marlboro ad from The Vet that I found.
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File Type: jpg 4B835D55-C42E-4366-9D2B-0BB14F13C101.jpg (8.9 KB, 98 views)
File Type: jpg 054CE7A1-F24E-47A2-8D10-A782EC3944A3.jpg (13.0 KB, 98 views)
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  #17  
Old 01-07-2019, 06:20 PM
Athos01 Athos01 is offline
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Default Johnson Clear Marlboro

Hi guys! My name is Kevin, and I am the owner of the clear sign PSA 9 Johnson Marlboro.

I purchased this card on eBay about 10 years ago, as I've never seen a Marlboro this clear. I have been collecting cards for 30 years now, and have opened tons and tons of '89 Fleer. I am a huge Bill Ripken collector and other errors as well.

It is unfortunate that all of you believe my card is a fake. I know I sent Dylan a small pic years ago of the Marlboro sign on my card, and the pic posted by Hatorade is of my card.

I would be happy to show you the card in person at the 2019 National convention. I have no reason at all to photoshop this card.

As for the questions regarding clarity, the pic was a close-up of Randy, and he was nowhere near the OF bleachers. Additionally, it does not appear to be an extremely bright and sunny day, so the sign itself may have shadows from the sun on the red part at top and the cowboy as well.
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  #18  
Old 01-07-2019, 06:29 PM
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bnorth bnorth is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Athos01 View Post
Hi guys! My name is Kevin, and I am the owner of the clear sign PSA 9 Johnson Marlboro.

I purchased this card on eBay about 10 years ago, as I've never seen a Marlboro this clear. I have been collecting cards for 30 years now, and have opened tons and tons of '89 Fleer. I am a huge Bill Ripken collector and other errors as well.

It is unfortunate that all of you believe my card is a fake. I know I sent Dylan a small pic years ago of the Marlboro sign on my card, and the pic posted by Hatorade is of my card.

I would be happy to show you the card in person at the 2019 National convention. I have no reason at all to photoshop this card.

As for the questions regarding clarity, the pic was a close-up of Randy, and he was nowhere near the OF bleachers. Additionally, it does not appear to be an extremely bright and sunny day, so the sign itself may have shadows from the sun on the red part at top and the cowboy as well.
Hi Keven, Thank you very much for posting on this forum. I would love to see it in hand but probably won't be at the National. I did send you a private message(PM) through this site with a request for a scan.
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  #19  
Old 01-07-2019, 07:23 PM
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Here is a much better pic of the PSA graded card. My bad that I did not correct Dylan when he said it could be photo shopped because I do have a long time card friend that has seen the card in hand.

I can't give a 100% opinion on the card without seeing it myself in hand or a super high resolution scan to check out the print dots(pattern). I will say there is a couple small things that make me lean more towards unaltered from the new better picture.
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File Type: jpg kevinRJcard.jpg (73.2 KB, 78 views)
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  #20  
Old 01-07-2019, 07:23 PM
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double post
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Last edited by bnorth; 01-07-2019 at 07:32 PM.
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