Are there any player's autographs that you refuse to collect?

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

Bonds' eyes were so good, he could pick-up the seems on the pitchers release point and know what type of pitch was coming. And based off of where his arm would be angled, he knew whether that pitch would be in his zone or not. He never struck out, and had a pretty good average. Obviously top tier players were blessed with those abilities.

Before he started taking steroids, Bonds averaged 90 strikeouts per 162 games played, and batted .289. His amazing eyes apparently didn't kick in until he was 36 years old, at which point his strikeouts dropped by nearly a third and his batting average jumped 35 points. I'm guessing that's also when the steroid regimen began.

Pre-steroids, Bonds was an excellent player, but I see no statistical measures that would make the pre-steroids Bonds the greatest player ever. Adjusted for their different eras, Mays beats him in most categories.

Pre-steroids, Bonds won 1 HR title, 1 RBI crown, 0 batting titles. Even with steroids, he failed to hit .300 for his career, earned 4 fewer Gold Gloves than Mays while playing the easier outfield position, won only 1 RBI crown and a grand total of 2 HR titles. Also, despite playing 22 seasons, Bonds is not in the top 14 in All-Star nominations.

Had he not used steroids, I don't think he would have made it to 600 home runs, and I don't think he would have managed much better than a .280 lifetime BA. He would have had his 500-500 accomplishment, 3 or 4 MVPs, and maybe another Gold Glove or two - and I think he would have been regarded as one of the top 20 position players ever (behind Ruth, Wagner, Cobb, Williams, Mays, Gehrig, Musial, Mantle, Aaron, etc.).

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by Karl Mattson

Before he started taking steroids, Bonds averaged 90 strikeouts per 162 games played, and batted .289. His amazing eyes apparently didn't kick in until he was 36 years old, at which point his strikeouts dropped by nearly a third and his batting average jumped 35 points. I'm guessing that's also when the steroid regimen began.

Pre-steroids, Bonds was an excellent player, but I see no statistical measures that would make the pre-steroids Bonds the greatest player ever. Adjusted for their different eras, Mays beats him in most categories.

Pre-steroids, Bonds won 1 HR title, 1 RBI crown, 0 batting titles. Even with steroids, he failed to hit .300 for his career, earned 4 fewer Gold Gloves than Mays while playing the easier outfield position, won only 1 RBI crown and a grand total of 2 HR titles. Also, despite playing 22 seasons, Bonds is not in the top 14 in All-Star nominations.

Had he not used steroids, I don't think he would have made it to 600 home runs, and I don't think he would have managed much better than a .280 lifetime BA. He would have had his 500-500 accomplishment, 3 or 4 MVPs, and maybe another Gold Glove or two - and I think he would have been regarded as one of the top 20 position players ever (behind Ruth, Wagner, Cobb, Williams, Mays, Gehrig, Musial, Mantle, Aaron, etc.).

Steroids do not make your vision better!!! Players just get better, for the jump in average that is easily explained by HE WALKED MORE! Obviously if you walk a ton more, your strikeouts will go down and your average will go up naturally.

It doesn't matter how many times you lead the league in a statistical category, because his MVP's show otherwise, that's flawed thinking. He was in TOP 5 in MVP voting from 1990-2000, that's 10 YEARS of consistency, and won it 3 times, second once, and should have won more if you compare the winner's stats to his since that's what your basis is on.

Bonds easily would have hit 600+ home runs, there is no way using steroids will give you 200+ home runs, or EVERYONE would do that. If Bonds didn't get as many free passes as he did, he would have been closer to 900-1000 home runs. He average 140 walks a year! That's absurd! Usually it's "good" if a player can manage half that many, or almost half that. One year he had over 200 walks, that is a lot of wasted at bats. Bonds IS the most feared hitter of ALL TIME, plain and simple, and while he didn't win home run titles, he couldn't. Hard to win when you have hundreds of less at bats due to walks.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

And Ruth being mentioned everywhere as the best baseball player ever, IMO is a JOKE. He was a one dimenshional player, that's it. He ONLY could hit. A god awful fielder, base runner. I don't consider him top 5. When I look at best players ever, I look at players who can do it all, the five tools, Ruth was waaaaaay off from that.

[David Atkatz]

Why don't you look at Ruth's record, and read a bit about what his contemporaries had to say before you embarrass yourself again with another stupid post.

[mr2686]

Thanks David...I was too much in shock to respond to his post.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Why don't you look at Ruth's record, and read a bit about what his contemporaries had to say before you embarrass yourself again with another stupid post.

What so you think a players' opinion is going to matter? Many players said Feller was the best pitcher ever, as well as hardest throwing.

Ruth's record, all hitting since he really wasn't a pitcher all that long. That's it. Ruth was BARELY 1 WAR defensively each year. That's terrible for someone who's supposedly the best baseball player ever. Obviously Ruth was a tremendous pitcher, but he only had about 3-3 1/2 full seasons as a pitcher. He could field, and he couldn't run. He was a one-dimensional offensive player, again because he was a pitcher too long.

Plus, this was my opinion, didn't realize my opinion affected you so much to warrant your response.

[David Atkatz]

You just don't care how ignorant you sound, do you?

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

You just don't care how ignorant you sound, do you?

This is my opinion, and no, not ignorant by any means. You think Babe was a good fielder? Are you saying he would have won a ton of gold gloves, maybe stole more than the 8 stolen bases he averaged per year? Quit being arrogant pal, and wasting my time. "Look at the records." Not saying Ruth isn't good, just saying he's not the best IMO. And that's what you don't seem to get, this is my opinion.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

And Ruth being mentioned everywhere as the best baseball player ever, IMO is a JOKE. He was a one dimenshional player, that's it. He ONLY could hit. A god awful fielder, base runner. I don't consider him top 5. When I look at best players ever, I look at players who can do it all, the five tools, Ruth was waaaaaay off from that.

HOF Rookies,
Maybe you should look at his career pitching statistics as well. The Big Bam was more than a one dimensional player. If he continued down the path of pitching he was good enough that he might have been a HOF pitcher, FWIW.

Just my 2 cents...

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

HOF Rookies,
Maybe you should look at his career pitching statistics as well. The Big Bam was more than a one dimensional player. If he continued down the path of pitching he was good enough that he might have been a HOF pitcher, FWIW.

Just my 2 cents...

I have said multiple times in my previous posts saying I'm disregarding his pitching. I know he was a hell of a pitcher, and most likely would have been a HOF'er as a pitcher if healthy. But, when he played the field, not pitching, one-dimensional.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

But this topic is getting boring. Good debate all

[mr2686]

Since you keep using words like Awful and one demensional in regards to his fielding, I thought I'd dig up some quotes that were published over the years. Even if you don't believe he was a great fielder, I don't believe you can possibly think he was awful.
This is MUST-READING for any fan of the Babe.
Don't miss the comments by Christy Mathewson,
Tris Speaker, George Sisler and the long description
of how Ruth fooled Charley Gehringer).


"Most enthusiasts think of Ruth only as a mighty batsman.
As a matter of fact, he is a very finished outfielder
with a marvelous throwing arm. . . Ruth plays a hard-hit ball
as well as any outfielder in the business. He goes after
a ground ball like an infielder, and for all his size
he is a smart and daring base runner."
(Christy Mathewson, Collier's, October 11, 1924, pp.45)

"I have been asked my opinion of great outfielders I have known.
By outfielders I mean solely the ability to play the position
quite apart from batting or base running talent. I will say,
without hesitation, that Babe Ruth is one of the half dozen
greatest outfielders I ever saw. This is aside from his
slugging ability, which is unrivaled, and his base running ability
which is much greater than is commonly supposed.
Purely as an outfielder, Babe will rank among the game's greatest.
He was not always so. When he first shifted from the pitching slab
to the outfield, he did not seem to take his work seriously.
His thoughts were mainly devoted to his batting. No doubt
they still are. But for all that, Babe has become a great outfielder.
He covers a lot of ground, primarily because he plays the batter correctly.
He has a sure pair of hands, a wonderful throwing arm and he always
knows exactly what to do with the ball when he gets it."
(Tris Speaker, Baseball Magazine, October 1928)

"He is really a great outfielder, one of the greatest.
He plays batters correctly, covers a lot more ground than
you'd think he'd be able to do with his bulk,
and has one of the deadliest throwing arms ever known.
Besides, Babe has an accurate baseball judgment and
never throws to the wrong base."
(George Sisler, (Baseball Magazine, April 1931, pp. 484)

"By common consent, Ruth was the hardest hitter of history;
a fine fielder, if not a finished one; an inspired base runner,
seeming to do the right thing without thinking. He had the most
perfect co-ordination of any human animal I ever knew."
(Hugh Fullerton, Chicago sportswriter)

"Ruth could make marvelous catches of fly balls that were
as spectacular in their cleverness as made by any outfielder
playing ball. Especially was this true of those long high flies which,
to a slower man, it would have been impossible to get under."
(John B. Foster (Editor-in-Chief of the Official Spalding Baseball Guide),
1938 Spalding Official Baseball Guide)

"But there also were numerous occasions when the Babe made plays
which he had craftily thought up beforehand. Such as the day
he played left field in Detroit and trapped no less an experienced hand
than Charley Gehringer into thinking a fly ball had cleared the fence
for a homer instead of coming down for an easy out. This was before
the present double deck stands had been erected in what then
was call Navin Field. There was just a board fence in left and
to the Babe one day it occurred that with a runner on second
it could be possible, with a high fly ball hit out toward left,
to fake all the notions of a dejected outfielder who knows a homer
is about to sail over his head. So he bided his time and
one afternoon it came. With Gehringer on second, a high fly soared
out to left. The Babe ran back to the fence, looked up at the ball
for a moment and then with a motion of utter disgust shrugged
his shoulders and cast his eyes on the ground. It was a beautiful piece
of acting and fooled Gehringer completely. Certain the ball was
clearing the fence, the Tiger second baseman headed for home.
And in that same moment Ruth darted forward, got his eyes back
on that ball and caught it some five feet in front of the fence.
Doubling up Gehringer at second was then a simple matter.
Of course, in order to accomplish the trick an outfielder
must be equipped with the gift of being able to take his eye
off the ball for an appreciable length of time. But then
the effervescent Babe Ruth was ever a very gifted hand at anything
he tried on a ball field.
(Ferdinand Cole Lane, Baseball Magazine, 1946)

"Few modern fans may realize it, but Babe Ruth was a great outfielder.
We mean defensively. The Babe rarely dropped a ball he got his glove on
and nobody can remember when he threw to the wrong base.
How did he get that way? Not by sitting around,
watching other outfielders practice."
(Ed Rumill, Baseball Magazine, September 1947)

"As a defensive outfielder he was top-hole despite his great bulk,
and his throwing arm was one of the most feared."
(Shirley Povich, Baseball Digest, March 1959)

". . .Ruth?. . . But he wasn't just a great pitcher and a great hitter,
he was a great outfielder. His throws were very accurate and
he made long throws. He was a good ballplayer. Great ballplayer.
(Joe Wood, interview by Mark Alvarez in 1975 and published in the
Baseball Research Journal, 1987, #16, pp. 54)
.


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