Brady Suspension Overturned

[Peter_Spaeth]

Kidding aside, once Brady went out there immediately with a vigorous denial, the team was never going to throw him under the bus by admitting to even a trivial violation or saying anything undercutting Brady. You can't really have expected them to do that. I think Kraft hoped by not contesting things on the team end of things, the Brady piece would go away. Goodell wasn't buying into it, so it played out as it did. But it was still, in my opinion, pretty damn trivial.

[steve B]

There are a few things I keep coming back to in my mind.

The rule is written very poorly. It specifies a PSI range but no temperature. And the pressure does change with temperature.

The way the checking is done is also poor. Two apparently cheap and inaccurate gauges when they were checking at halftime, only one before the game. Gages that are typically off by 2% in the middle of the range. I didn't see in the report what the range was, but even if it was a 0-25 Psi range it could be off by .5 psi. http://www.dascosales.com/pressure-gauge-accuracy.php A guage with .1% accuracy can be had for around $250. every Team should have 2-3 of them, one for staff and at least one in the refs room. NOT some cheap guage provided by the ball manufacturer or Wal-Mart.

On page 15 of the report (linked below) they say the "experts" they hired determined that the gauges would have read consistently, which is obviously wrong if you look at the raw data on page 12. The colts balls measurements are consistent except for one, where the guage that reads higher for three balls reads lower for one. But for the Patriots balls that same guage reads lower than the other on all 11. So I'd say that makes all the rest of their analysis a bit suspect.

On one gage three of the four Colts balls checked were also under 12.5 - where's the punishment?

In the report they have texts discussing balls the were overinflated by the refs. Perhaps as high as 16 Psi. Also a violation of the rule, and by the officials. Again no punishment. Not even a "don't do that" memo.
Top of page 9 Here https://www.documentcloud.org/docume...flategate.html

The rule only calls for a fine.

So evidence that contradicts the science, obtained with poor equipment, supporting a poorly written rule. Yep sounds entirely convincing and fair to me


Steve B

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by gnaz01

I will say it AGAIN, what rule was he PROVEN to break?? This is the opportune word here: PROVEN in my opinion. The good thing is that here is the US, you are innocent until PROVEN guilty (lawyers chime in please )

Accurate point Greg, but I find it interesting that 8 "Blacksox" were exonerated in a US Court of Law, and then suspended for LIFE by Landis the following day? Too many inconsistencies with that theory.

JoeT.

[nolemmings]

Steve, while you blind yourself with science, do you forget that the two equipment guys effectively admitted to deflating the footballs and that Tom Brady liked 'em that way--- oh wait, he claims he didn't know anything about it, never mind.

So yes, going forward the rule will probably need to be changed or at least the protocols will, but as for what occurred last season, few people outside of Patriot Nation doubt that the deflation happened and that it was willful, not accidental or the result of some scientific anomaly. And legally, while the court decision ruled in favor of Brady for other reasons, there was sufficient evidence to sustain the findings.

My two cents for the Pats. Keep on denying you did anything wrong, own up to nothing, and let that be your battleground. Or admit that there was deflation going on, explain that it had no influence on the outcome, it was a minor violation, etc. Pick one. Not two. And if you pick number 1, don't be surprised or hurt when most of the rest of the NFL nation thinks you are full of crap.

[freakhappy]

[jhs5120]

Those text messages are enough proof for any reasonable person.

I have yet to meet a Patriots fan who has been able to explain them.

[drcy]

Early on I was convinced that Brady cheated-- and I'm not saying he didn't. However, the NFL/Goodell did so many kangaroo court things they deserve what they got. Too many list, but they intentionally leaked false information about the inflation rates and refused to correct it when it was pointed it out as incorrect (even the ESPN reporter who received the information said the information was false), they tried him on one offense but sentenced him on another, the penalty is inconsistent with any similar offense, they didn't allow Brady's lawyers to interview numerous key people, they said the Wells report was independent but it was edited by NFL's own lawyer (and didn't allow Brady's lawyer to cross examine that lawyer)-- and that's just scratching the surface of the dubious things the NFL things did. Most people still have the sense that Brady cheated in major part based on initial leaked PSI information that was long ago proven to be false, and probably intentionally leaked by the NFL to mislead.

The judge was basically saying the NFL has to clean up its procedures.

There is debate about whether or not Brady cheated (and he may have), but its appears unanimous in both camps that Goodell is a boob. He just seems out of his league or completely misguided in legal matters.

And this post is coming from a strong anti-cheating person and Green Bay Packers fan. If first time caught steroid users were banned for life and their stats erased from the books, that would be fine by me, and I early on felt that substantial penalty-- perhaps even loss of that close playoff game-- was warranted for illegally deflating balls. But the NFL mishandled the whole thing so thoroughly-- intentionally releasing false PSI rates then refusing to publicly correct it even when it was soofafter shown to be false, 'independent report' edited by their lawyer who they prevent from being interviewed, switching charges between conviction and sentencing, etc etc etc-- I now give the benefit of the doubt to Brady. In particular due to the intentionally false PSI rates that was the impetus for the whole uproar, I'm no longer even certain there is proof the balls were illegally deflated. Maybe they were, but anything the NFL says on the matter shouldn't be considered serious evidence.

[tsalem]

Originally Posted by drcy

Early on I was convinced that Brady cheated-- and I'm not saying he didn't. However, the NFL/Goodell did so many kangaroo court things they deserve what they got. Too many list, but they intentionally leaked false information about the inflation rates and refused to correct it when it was pointed it out as incorrect (even the ESPN reporter who received the information said the information was false), they tried him on one offense but sentenced him on another, the penalty is inconsistent with any similar offense, they didn't allow Brady's lawyers to interview numerous key people, they said the Wells report was independent but it was edited by NFL's own lawyer (and didn't allow Brady's lawyer to cross examine that lawyer)-- and that's just scratching the surface of the dubious things the NFL things did. Most people still have the sense that Brady cheated in major part based on initial leaked PSI information that was long ago proven to be false, and probably intentionally leaked by the NFL to mislead.

The judge was basically saying the NFL has to clean up its procedures.

There is debate about whether or not Brady cheated (and he may have), but its appears unanimous in both camps that Goodell is a boob. He just seems out of his league or completely misguided in legal matters.

And this post is coming from a strong anti-cheating person and Green Bay Packers fan. If first time caught steroid users were banned for life and their stats erased from the books, that would be fine by me, and I early on felt that substantial penalty-- perhaps even loss of that close playoff game-- was warranted for illegally deflating balls. But the NFL mishandled the whole thing so thoroughly-- intentionally releasing false PSI rates then refusing to publicly correct it even when it was soofafter shown to be false, 'independent report' edited by their lawyer who they prevent from being interviewed, switching charges between conviction and sentencing, etc etc etc-- I now give the benefit of the doubt to Brady. In particular due to the intentionally false PSI rates that was the impetus for the whole uproar, I'm no longer even certain there is proof the balls were illegally deflated. Maybe they were, but anything the NFL says on the matter shouldn't be considered serious evidence.

Agree, however... "I'm no longer even certain there is proof the balls were illegally deflated" - There never was any proof.

Also, I have yet to hear any reason why 3 of the 4 balls used by the Colts were under inflated after being tested. I think we all know why now - gas law- however, this was never addressed.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

I won't offer my opinion, I will admit I'm ignorant on the matter compared to most of you. Have read stuff here and there.

But, what ever the reason, guilty or not, it just really saddens me about the state of the NFL, especially the last few years. I used to enjoy the NFL so much and loved it, I still do enjoy it, though on a smaller level and have a great fantasy league with close friends, but all of this crap turns me off of the game... Go Gophers!


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[WhenItWasAHobby]

There's a lot to be disgusted about this whole sordid mess. Did New England and Brady "beat the rap"? Only they know for sure, but they sure didn't behave like innocent victims either.

This issues of the "deflator" texts, the equipment guy taking the balls in the restroom for 90 seconds, allegedly sticky substances added to the balls and Brady's cell phone "accidentally" being destroyed among other things sure didn't help "the integrity of the game".

Ben Roethlinsberger was initially suspended 6 games when there were news reports of sexual assault. As it turns out, the reports were way overblown. The police thoroughly checked on the incident and nothing illegal happened. There was never a charge, an arrest, let alone a conviction. Yet, it was decided to reduce the suspension from 6 to 4 games because of a "perception issue" to maintain the integrity of the game and the NFL and the 4 game suspension went unchallenged.

There should have been subpoenas on the Brady text messages. The way it all played out was a joke. So, it was either a unfounded witch hunt or someone was breaking the rules and got away with it and nothing else will probably happen from this point on.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by tsalem

Agree, however... "I'm no longer even certain there is proof the balls were illegally deflated" - There never was any proof.

Also, I have yet to hear any reason why 3 of the 4 balls used by the Colts were under inflated after being tested. I think we all know why now - gas law- however, this was never addressed.

Never addressed? There's a 75 page expert report attached to the Wells Report, which also has an extensive discussion.

[laughlinfan]

This is probably much like arguing politics – I think both sides are fairly intractable. The Wells report addressed and completely understood the ideal gas law. Indy’s balls deflated due to the decrease in temperature, as did New England’s. The ideal gas law does not, however, ever dictate that New England’s balls, being initially inflated at a lower PSI, would decrease over twice as much as Indy’s. Lots of “if this gauge was used, and they waited x minutes, and the balls were damp…” and so on, to try to come up with a scenario to explain it, but as the Wells report considered, that was highly unlikely. But, as the Wells report also said, even throwing out the science, there was more than enough evidence to know what was going on.

Clearly, holding the NFL to a prosecutorial standard shows them lacking (time and time again!), but any reasonable person, after seeing the texts between Jastremski and McNally, knows that there was a longstanding effort to underinflate the balls, and Brady was aware. Was it deserving of a 4 game suspension? No. Do other teams do something similar? I would say yes. When the NFL got wind of what NE was doing, they should have just told them to knock it off. They brought all of this on themselves.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Never addressed? There's a 75 page expert report attached to the Wells Report, which also has an extensive discussion.

Do you have a link to that? The places I've found the Wells report don't include it. And it sounds like something I should read.


Steve B

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by steve B

Do you have a link to that? The places I've found the Wells report don't include it. And it sounds like something I should read.


Steve B

It's in the link you posted earlier, scroll down all the way.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

I can say as an engineer by profession that air is not an ideal gas, so if ideal gas calculations were used to render a conclusion, then the study was flawed.

But the real issue that got obscured was New England's and Brady's lack of cooperation during the investigation. Brady lawyered-up, and likely destroyed or withheld incriminating evidence and refused to give interviews when asked.

This article sums things up rather well about the rationale for the suspension and the fact that New England and Brady acted the way they did and received no punishment is deplorable and sets a very bad precedence against future rule-breakers and investigations.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap300...of-cooperation

[drcy]

The Patriots did receive punishment. They lost a first round draft pick and $1 million.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by drcy

The Patriots did receive punishment. They lost a first round draft pick and $1 million.

In the end, they could have saved up to $5-$10 million if that draft pick became a bust. All planned! They just didn't like the crop of first round guys for the next draft


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[steve B]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Steve, while you blind yourself with science, do you forget that the two equipment guys effectively admitted to deflating the footballs and that Tom Brady liked 'em that way--- oh wait, he claims he didn't know anything about it, never mind.

So yes, going forward the rule will probably need to be changed or at least the protocols will, but as for what occurred last season, few people outside of Patriot Nation doubt that the deflation happened and that it was willful, not accidental or the result of some scientific anomaly. And legally, while the court decision ruled in favor of Brady for other reasons, there was sufficient evidence to sustain the findings.

My two cents for the Pats. Keep on denying you did anything wrong, own up to nothing, and let that be your battleground. Or admit that there was deflation going on, explain that it had no influence on the outcome, it was a minor violation, etc. Pick one. Not two. And if you pick number 1, don't be surprised or hurt when most of the rest of the NFL nation thinks you are full of crap.

The rule and protocols do need to be entirely redone. They've had the entire offseason and if they've redone anything at all they've kept it secret.

The ideal gas laws are just that predictable unchanging laws of science proven for a very long time. Certainly not what I'd call an "Anomaly"

The crappiness of the gauges used is also provable, even assuming they're 25 Psi Guages and not more generic tire pressure types with a larger range (And the probably were) 2% of 25 is .5 Psi, so in the first place there's no way to know they were actually at 12.5 because they could have been anywhere from 12-13 (Or 11.5 - 13.5 if it was a 0-50Psi guage.)

And the results of the "evidence" would be off by as much, since the same gauge was one of the ones used (And which the report states can't be found ....)

Where in the report does it say they admitted deflating the balls?
It does say that for the Jets game the refs overinflated them, to maybe 16 Psi.
Gee, I wonder why.



Ah, the history of "cheating"

Jets guy filming the pats practice signals from a disallowed spot - Removed from the stadium, problem solved.

Pats Guy doing exactly what the Jets guy was doing....Becomes a big deal.

Some question of inflation....
FORMER JETS guy leads the initial "investigation" into it making it a big deal.
http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/01/26/nfl...il-deflategate
Oh the surprise. NOT!

NFL gets heavy handed trying to look good after two complete fiascos over punishment. NFL overreaches and gets caught. Ignores CBA, ignores their own rule, ignores a known problem with the balls http://www.barstoolsports.com/boston...ime-naturally/


The whole thing stinks on many levels, and not just from any one side either.

Steve B

[laughlinfan]

I find the Jets game situation very interesting, and no one has really tried to lay out what happened. I think the most plausible case was that the Pats submitted balls below the range initially, refs checked them, found them to be low, and just pumped some more air in them - way too much apparently. No other reason I can think of for the refs to pump them up (feel free to offer one!). From there, I suspect that McNally either let a little air out (per usual), but it was not enough, or maybe for some reason, McNally couldn't get his opportunity to deflate them. I can't think of any other reason that Brady would be upset with McNally, and why McNally (who, as official locker room attendant, remember, has NO responsibility to add or remove air from a football, EVER!) would be so defiantly angry for over a week(!) at Brady in turn.

Brady did testify that after that game, they instructed the refs to adjust the balls to exactly 12.5.

From the report:
"For example, on October 17, 2014, following a Thursday night game between the
Patriots and the New York Jets during which Tom Brady complained angrily
about the inflation level of the game balls, McNally and Jastremski exchanged the
following text messages:
McNally:

Tom sucks...im going make that next ball a f**kin balloon

Jastremski:

Talked to him last night. He actually brought you up and
said you must have a lot of stress trying to get them done...

Jastremski:

I told him it was. He was right though...

Jastremski:

I checked some of the balls this morn... The refs f**ked
us...a few of then were at almost 16

Jastremski:

They didnt recheck then after they put air in them

McNally:

F**k tom ...16 is nothing...wait till next sunday

Jastremski:

Omg! Spaz

On October 21, 2014, McNally and Jastremski exchanged the following text
messages:
McNally:

Make sure you blow up the ball to look like a rugby ball so
tom can get used to it before sunday

Jastremski:

Omg

On October 23, 2014, three days before a Sunday game against the Chicago
Bears, Jastremski and McNally exchanged the following messages:
Jastremski:

Can‟t wait to give you your needle this week

McNally:

Fuck tom....make sure the pump is attached to the
needle.....f**kin watermelons coming

Jastremski:

So angry

McNally:

The only thing deflating sun..is his passing rating

The next day, October 24, 2014, Jastremski and McNally exchanged the
following messages:
Jastremski:

I have a big needle for u this week

McNally:

Better be surrounded by cash and newkicks....or its a rugby
sunday

McNally:

F**k tom

Jastremski:

Maybe u will have some nice size 11s in ur locker

McNally:

Tom must really be working your balls hard this week

On October 25, 2014, McNally and Jastremski exchanged the following
messages:
Jastremski:

Size 11?

Jastremski:

2 or 3X?

McNally:

Tom must really be on you

McNally:

11 0r 11 half......2x unless its tight fitting

Jastremski:

Nah. Hasn‟t even mentioned it, figured u should get
something since he gives u nothing"