Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly

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Posted By: dan mckee

Thanks Jay, I am sorry, I probably misunderstood and needless to say, I am on pins and needles these days. Take care and thanks again, dan.

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Posted By: TBob

As a criminal defense lawyer I can tell you that anyone who truly believes in such things as the presumption of innocence and the burden on the State to prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt is trapsing down the path of unreality. When I win a criminal case it is because we have succeeded in proving the defendant's innocence (or rather lack of guilt). There is a great law review article I recently read which stated that in this post 9-11 era, jurors no longer presume the innocence of the accused and the burden has subtly and quietly shifted to the defendant being forced to prove his/her case not the State convincing jurors with such certainty that they are convinced beyond a reasonable doubt. In criminal cases, the standard of proof for conviction has seemingly become more of a preponderance of the evidence than beyond a reasonable doubt, no matter how the jury is contrastingly instructed and despite their promises to require the State to prove its case as required by law. Credit the 9-11 aftermath, the OJ case, and the media's unfettered onslaught and irresponsibility in convicting defendants without the necessity of their day in court with much of the problem.
This doesn't have a lot to do with cards, but is in response to a post in this thread.

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Posted By: dan mckee

ah ok? put this in English for me Bob, are you telling me I am done for here?

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Posted By: Hankron

I'm neither a liberal nor a conservative conspiracy extremist, but anyone who takes the popular media as gospel-- that's his or her failing. To a large degree, MSNBC, FOX and such are intended as forms of entertainment (obviously, to gather rating), and should be treated as such.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

Most laypeople don't understand the difference between types of evidence. Dan swearing under penalty of perjury that he went through the sequence of conduct we've been discussing IS evidence. Direct testimonial eyewitness evidence. What you and many others are fixating on is documentary evidence--paperwork, photographs, film, etc. Any court would accept Dan's testimony as evidence. Once given, the burden would be on PSA to disprove Dan's evidence. As I pointed out, PSA cannot do this because it cannot prove what happened when the package got to their office. I seriously doubt that anyone at PSA can accurately testify as to what was in the box because I doubt that anyone at PSA can even be shown to have opened it (my experience is that a company that processes lots of orders can point you to who was on duty that day, but that the individuals cannot testify accurately as to precisely what they did on their shifts).

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Posted By: dan mckee

Adam, you are my hero! so what can I do now? Since PSA does business in every state can I file small claims here? Should I contact the state of CA attorney general and make him/her aware of this? I am completely clueless as of what I can do, what I should do, what is the right thing to do. Can I email the competitor grading companies with a scan and to watch out for this "lost" card??? thanks dan.

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Posted By: Kenny Cole

TBob,

I presume that your post was in response to mine. When it comes to criminal matters, I don't really disagree with what you said. I practice in Oklahoma, the middle of the Bible-belt. With respect to criminal defendants, there has always been a rather pronounced do-as-I-say, not-as-I-do, hanging mentality around here. While I don't doubt that 9-11 and OJ made it worse, it existed before those two events.

Moreover, as you noted, newspapers can exacerbate the problem. That is certainly true here. The paper with the biggest circulation in this state, which we call the Daily Jokelahoman, is a rag. It is run by a bunch of right-wing zealots who make Dubya look like a liberal. I sometimes wonder if the paper's editors don't goose-step into their offices in the morning, thrust out their arms, and shout "Sig Heil" at each other before beginning their daily routine of trying to suppress all viewpoints other than their own. When it comes to an accused, the Daily Disappointment is great about trying and convicting him/her in the court of public opinion well in advance of trial. I can't argue with your view about the effect of the press on criminal defendants' rights. Unfortunately, I think you are correct.

However, the purpose of my post was not to extol the virtues of the criminal justice system. I was simply trying to explain to Jay that mathematical certainty wasn't required to win a civil suit and that eyewitness testimony that something did or didn't happen was proof, even if there was contrary testimony on precisely the same issue.

I also said that jurors are usually pretty good at cutting through BS and seeing things as they really are. At least in civil cases, I think that is generally true. Admittedly, jurors' vision can get blurred if the plaintiff has dirty laundry and the bad evidence comes in. However, even then, I would still trust their ability to reach the right result over that of many of the judges around here. Most of my friends who do criminal defense work feel similarly. It may be different in your neck of the woods though.

Back to the situation at hand. Am I correct in understanding that while PSA supposedly has cameras in place to video their intake employees and prevent precisely this type of occurrence, it cannot come up with a tape of this particular transaction? That seems a little odd to me. If that is accurate, it seems to me that a spoliation of evidence issue may exist. If it does, you might get the benefit of an inference that had the video been produced, what it showed would have been unfavorable to PSA. That sort of inference can be quite helpful at times. Just a thought.

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Posted By: Marc S.

to see if the following clause in PSA submissions form legalley binds you:

"Exclusive jurisdiction and venue for any dispute arising from Customer's submission of cards to PSA shall be in the Superior Court, Orange County, California, and Customer agrees to waive any right to a trial by jury in any such action, and further agrees that the prevailing party in any such action shall be entitled to an award of its attorney's fees and costs. "

It may not, but I am not of sufficient legal competence to render an opinion one way or another. In any case, Item 9 under "PSA Grading Terms and Procedures" explicity states that disclaimer, and if your submission form was signed, you basically signed saying that you "read and agree to the PSA grading terms and conditions below"

-Marc S.

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Posted By: carew4me

PSA's submission form contains the following statement: Exclusive jurisdiction and venue for any dispute arising from Customer's submission of cards to PSA shall be in the Superior Court, Orange County, California, and Customer agrees to waive any right to a trial by jury in any such action, and further agrees that the prevailing party in any such action shall be entitled to an award of its attorney's fees and costs.

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Posted By: carew4me

Weird, we must have been gathering that response at almost the same extact time!

Anyway, if you lose you may have to cover their attorny fee's. Which will be well north of $6000.

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Posted By: MW

I very much agree with Adam. I think the burden of proof will be much greater for PSA than it will for Dan. Also, should this "case" end up in a courtroom, I DO think that Dan's testimony (at least in terms of content) will be very straightforward and believable.

Dan, my advice, if you choose to go the legal route, is to begin a process (usually takes about a month) of searching for the proper individual and law firm to represent you. Keep in mind that you may have to contact 20 or so law offices to find the proper attorney and that, after attorney's fees (should you lose), you may end up with nothing. I think that with a knowledgeable attorney from a well-respected law firm, however, you have a very good chance of winning (based on what I've read here) and recovering all of your fees and losses.

I should also note that even if you lose, PSA will probably do everything it can to avoid the bad publicity. If you decide to file a lawsuit and this case goes to trial (bench or jury), I can only imagine the negative impact it will have on the company (Collectors Universe) and the number of trade publications that will write about it. After all, it WILL be major hobby news since thousands of submitters will be potentially affected by the proceedings and decision.

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Posted By: dan mckee

Story of my life! Boy how convenient is that! the fine print stating we can take your card and you can't do anything about it! Unreal. I guess I will just have to make that part of my "loudmouth" campaign. Any suggestions friends? I could really use a hand here. dan.

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Posted By: dan mckee

ok, sounds good. should look where? that is basically why I came here, also to inform my vintage collecting comrads but to hopefully find a possible lawyer or a combined law effort. I do have some money to spend but really do not know where or how to look for a lawyer. Dan.

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Posted By: MW

It's probably pretty obvious, but if PSA is sued and found liable, submissions to the company will probably greatly decrease. After all, who on earth would want to submit to a company that loses valuable baseball cards and then denies it, either out of ignorance or incompetence?

Remember, Collectors Universe is a publicly traded company. Its books and methods of operation are already subject to very specific SEC regulations. The potential fallout from ending up on the wrong side of such a lawsuit might have severely detrimental effects on CU's stock price and the future financial viability of PSA.

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Posted By: Marc S.

<<I should also note that even if you lose, PSA will probably do everything it can to avoid the bad publicity. If you decide to file a lawsuit and this case goes to trial (bench or jury), I can only imagine the negative impact it will have on the company (Collectors Universe) and the number of trade publications that will write about it. After all, it WILL be major hobby news since thousands of submitters will be potentially affected by the proceedings and decision.>>

MW, though I would typically agree with your viewpoint, let me only play Devil's Advocate and offer this: For the extremely large number of cards that may have been affected through the WIWAG scandal, including how many unknown cards that have been sold through gradeandtrade and thepit.com, etcetera, I would say that that scandal, which is of more hobby importance and value than Mr. McKee's situation, has resulted in nary an affect on PSA. It certainly would be very hard to quantify any such effect -- but I can think of no major collectors that switched grading companies because of the scandal, any dealers that switched inventory because of the scandal, or any major difference in number of cards that seem to be traded on Ebay, etc. I personally see that PSA did very wrong in the WIWAG scandal (esp. since the holders have not improved), and I think that there is potential that wrong was done here. However, I am unsure if the negative publicity really scares PSA. Who knows.

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Posted By: MW

Dan,

Start by doing some online searches for law firms in the Orange County and surrounding areas. You might also want to call several libraries and see if they can obtain a phonebook from that area.

Keep in mind that you may run into many attorneys that will have no interest in taking your case. Eventually, though, you WILL find someone who will be very eager to see that justice is served.

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Posted By: MW

<< It certainly would be very hard to quantify any such effect -- but I can think of no major collectors that switched grading companies because of the scandal, any dealers that switched inventory because of the scandal, or any major difference in number of cards that seem to be traded on Ebay, etc. >>

OK, Mark, whatever you say.

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Posted By: MW

That's some really bad advice, Mark. I'm sure you could find plenty of attorneys who could effectively argue on both sides of the issue...which basically proves nothing.

The case should proceed on its only merits, not based on the legal jargon inserted in small print as a disclaimer near the bottom of a submission form.

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Posted By: jay behrens

You see a decrease in PSA cards unless large numbers are set free from there tombs. The question is, is the number of PSA cards trending upward at the same rate, holding steady or declining. My suspicion is that they saw a noticable decline in submissions after WIWAG scandle.

Jay

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Posted By: carew4me

Marc,
Spot on. Virtually no impact on PSA.
In fact PSA numbers on average are increasing while GAI struggles even with the pedigree they brought to the table.

It will take much more of an issue to even put a dent in PSA as the market leader.

Remember, 99.99% of the peaople who deal with PSA
have a fluid, smooth transaction. Then if they sell they reap the Premium that PSA cards demand and
are further satisfied with their dealings.


If WIWAG didnt do it, what would?

Scandals just dont have the impact they used.

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Posted By: MW

Excerpt from COLLECTORS UNIVERSE INC (CLCT)Quarterly Report (SEC form 10-Q), May 15, 2003:

"Sportscard grading revenues for the three and nine months ended March 31, 2003 and 2002, respectively, declined significantly compared to the same periods last year, indicating a continued degradation in the demand for sportscard grading."

I think what they really mean is "continued degradation" in the demand for PSA grading. Other major grading companies have actually seen an increase in submissions during the same time period.


Also, I found this language (from the same report) to be somewhat interesting:

"In particular, the factors described in our Annual Report that could adversely affect our future financial performance include...increased competition from other collectibles auction and grading companies; the risk that we will incur unanticipated liabilities under our authentication and grading warranties; and government regulation that could cause operating costs to increase."

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Posted By: MW

Carew4me,

I guess we haven't been reading the same financial statements and quarterly reports. Just a few minutes ago, I took a look at CU's Income Statements, Balance Sheets, and Cash Flow Statements from the last six quarters and I plainly saw net losses in five of those quarters. In the last two quarterly reports, I have also read language that CLEARLY indicates that PSA is one of the weakest links in the company and that significant decreases have been seen in PSA submissions.

On a hobby-related level, I don't think there's any questions that scores of hobbyists and dealers have become disillusioned with PSA and have either switched to one of its competitors or greatly curtailed their submissions -- all of which is clearly supported by CU's financial statements.

On a personal level, I can tell you that I'm no longer comfortable bidding on PSA graded cards on eBay for fear that I'm going to end up with one of the many thousands of resealed holders. PSA has yet to make their holders more secure and frankly, it's just not worth the risk. I know that my customers don't want overgraded or altered PSA cards and I don't either.

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Posted By: Albie O'Hanian

It would only be logical that PSA would suffer a loss in submissions. GAI has taken away some of their business. There are a some National Dealers that used to sell only PSA graded cards but now they have added GAI to their inventory. More importantly, Beckett has probably taken the lead in the modern market. Grading companies probably get most of their submissions from modern cards. Beckett has risen so quickly (on modern issues) and has taken away a huge percentage of the market from PSA.

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Posted By: .....

anonymous post

Elliot

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Posted By: TBob

Dan there was a link months ago on the board to a watchdog group with some clout. Can anyone provide it? They picked up on the ebay/Broadway Rick controversy and ran with it and caused some major ripples. Contact them for their help and publicity. Major corporations despise bad publicity, even from something others on this board say wouldn't put a "dent" in their business.
Stck it to 'em Dan!

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Posted By: dan mckee

PLEASE PLEASE, if that group that he speaks of is still out there or around, PLEASE help me! I am borderline begging at this point! Dan.

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Posted By: Kenny Cole

In my view, the best way to find a good lawyer is to talk to someone, hopefully someone you trust, in the geographical area. Even if the person you talk to doesn't do that sort of work, chances are that they will know someone good who does. That's the way the legal community works. The referral network is generally such that you can be directed to a good lawyer who practices in the desired area.

Option no. 2 is to go to Martindale-Hubbell. I think that it is now on line. Some view it as kind of a political, profit-driven publication (I'm kind of there myself), but one thing that it does do very well is locate lawyers by geographical area, area of practice and rate them in legal competence and ethics. That rating is made by their peers. It can be fixed, but it generally isn't. The importance of the ratings is that they come from other lawyers who practice with them. When you get a rating slip, you leave it blank if you don't know them. Basically, you bump up your friends and the lawyers you know who are good. While it is not a foolproof system, most AV rated lawyers aren't dunces.

As far as the ratings go, you have probably figured oht that AV is the best. A means that the lawyers with whom you practice think that you are good at what you do. Most have a B, and I've seen a few with a C. I would think that was a problem. V means that you are viewed as ethical. Everyone has a V, so that doesn't mean much. There are many BV rated lawyers who are as good as or better than, the ones rated AV, but I would suggest that you start with AV rated ones if you don't have a better option. Just a suggestion.

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Posted By: MW

Kenny,

Some good suggestions.

On a side note, here are two of the dumbest things I've read so far about this unfortunate situation -- posted on the CU forum:


"I'm sure that PSA's defense attorneys would argue that Mr. McKee was negligent for not sending it registered."

(My note: they could, but that would be totally irrelevant to the case. The issue would be the care with which PSA received the package and accounted for its contents. Unless I'm mistaken, a simple objection would over-rule any mention of Dan's so-called negligence).


"Whether a video tape was running at the time the package was opened is irrelevant if the person doesn't know if the tape is running or not. In other words, as long as the person thinks he's being video taped then it's highly unlikely he would attempt to commit this crime."

(My note: I can think of no dumber argument than this one. Can you imagine an attorney representing PSA and trying to logically advance such a rationale for not providing better security? It's truly mind-boggling to me what random and desperate thoughts spring from such mentally idle minds).

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Posted By: MW

I'm not going to embarrass someone by listing his name, but I simply HAVE to post another quote from the CU forum:

"It's safe to say that more packages have been tampered with the Postal Service than complaints made against PSA."


Besides the fact that this doesn't make grammatical sense, there's a certain element of logic missing here too. A nickel to anyone who can spot it.

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Posted By: david

is it the fact that the post office has been around for 200 more years then psa?

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Posted By: jau behrens

And don't forget the sheer volume that the post office deals with. PSA would probably ahve to be open almost 200 years to handle as many cards as the post does pieces of mail each day.

Jay

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Posted By: david

i dont know if you have done this already but i would contact as many high profile dealers and auction houses as possible(especially those in the area around psa headquarters) and tell them to be on the look out for the card. i would also send the dealers a scan of the front and back. with a rare card like this they are all pretty much unique. you might also want to see about filing a police report if you can and report the card missing/stolen. you might have to contact the police dept in cali for this.

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Posted By: dan mckee

Great idea David! I would think I could file a police report here but if anyone knows for sure, please tell me. Living in Maryland, I do not know many people in California. If anyone here has any recommendations for a lawyer, please lmk. Thanks again. dan.

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Posted By: Marc S.

Here is the Martindale.com Lawyer Locator site. I use it frequently in my line of work.

http://www.martindale.com/xp/Martindale/home.xml

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Posted By: dan mckee

Thanks Kenny! Martindale-Hubbell is online? I will check. You gents going out to the CU board are brave souls! I stay right here where the vintage collectors are. I enjoyed MW's posts from the CU board, too funny!

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Posted By: dan mckee

great! thanks again!

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Posted By: Trevor Hocking

Sorry to hear about your situation. I would be just as crushed. Because of your situation I just got done video taping with witnesses, me showing ever card (115) going into a priority mail insured box from the first card until it was handed to the post office representative. The postman was taken a little back by me filming this transaction, but who cares. In light of what has happen to you I just couldn't imagine 115 N172's getting lost or stolen from the collecting world. So the point is that your situation is not going unnoticed. By the way, they did not go to PSA and I will never send another card to them again!! SGC has the best customer service I have seen yet. They have handled this situation very poorly, along with many oh so recent, "MESS UP's" So chalk this up as a little less there're getting because of your situation. It was the last straw. Good luck and I don't care what anybody says a T206 Magie isn't something any collector would say, oh well it's a life lesson I have to learn from. It is another peace of baseball card history, a pretty important one, that is lost to are hobby. Hope you find it.
Trevor

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Posted By: warshawlaw

"Sportscard grading revenues for the three and nine months ended March 31, 2003 and 2002, respectively, declined significantly compared to the same periods last year, indicating a continued degradation in the demand for sportscard grading."

What a load of crap.

What I relish about this form of corporatespeak is how it twists a statement that the writer needs to make about the company into some sort of vague statement about the business in which the company is engaged, so that the company doesn't look as bad. Someone labored over this passage, intentionally tweaking it to avoid saying that PSA's business is worsening. Instead, they twist the grammar and make a generalized statement about some amorphous "continued degradation in the demand for sportscard grading." Really? Anyone ask the other companies about their submissions??

Translated into "normal" English instead of corporatespeak, the writer would have said: "We've made less money on card grading this year than for the same period of last year because there is less demand for our services."

So much for the post-Enron openness and honesty in corporate statements.

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Posted By: Prewarsports.com

I know most of the people on this board would rather do just about anything before they would badmouth SGC, but the EXACT situation that happened to Dan happened to me at SGC. They lost 2 of my cards, said they would reimburse me for the insured value, then cam up with a $20 random figure, never gave it to me and even charged me to grade the 2 cards they lost. This is the exact same situation that Dan is dealing with, on a lesser monetary scale, but with SGC. Point is, don't be so sure that SGC will handle anything differently, they handled me the same way PSA is handling Dan. SGC does a better job with their grading, but they are very very far from the Perfect alternative that most people on this board view them as.

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Posted By: dan mckee

WOW! Thanks Trevor! I really appreciate your support! I have never had a problem with SGC and actually, my few cards that I have that are graded and are keepers are SGC only because I didn't care about the grade and the cases are the nicest! I know SGC is strict and the Magie and others were for resale so that is why I chose PSA to get the better grade, boy am I paying for it! Thanks again for your note, I really appreciate this. Dan. P.S. Nice cards you have!

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Posted By: MW

Details?

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Posted By: Trevor Hocking

Yes Please!!! I'm sure they all have had a few mess ups, but not as many as PSA lately. I know what people would say , "PSA gets way more submissions", who cares! When it comes to my cards I would rather have the special attention.

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Posted By: julie

Mark Macrae says two things:

1) anyone familiar with Dan will immeiately believe him.
2) It's time to take good note of his card's idiocyncracies--there're plenty--and watch for it to surface. Anywhere!

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Posted By: dan mckee

Thanks julie and pass my thanks on to Marc! Yes he is correct, it won't be hard to identify this card. I am filing a police report on Monday when I return from out of town. Then I will send out scans and pictures to the other grading companies and large dealers and auction houses next week. I want to have the card marked as stolen property by a police report first. Unfortunately, I still have to work and my time is limited.

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Posted By: Trevor Hocking

I didn't say those comments and do what I'm doing solely because of your situation. Even though it was the last straw. I'm just getting disgusted with grading companies who are only out for the submission fee. I also know that no company can be perfect in anyway, but when it comes to preserving baseball card history I think they could take a little more time and research in what they do. I think Jay has a valid point in that they have to only go on the evidence that's in front of them, but I know that if this happened with SGC there would be a big investigation and many phone calls from high up people right away, no waiting around. PSA is a totally different company now. I hate to see it happen but it was inevitable. I know that they will never fully fail just because of how many high dollar collectors are heavily invested in PSA's product, but I would love to see how much support there're going to get when times get tuff! I don't mean to be such the PSA basher here but man this is getting sad, at least in the vintage side of the company. (that's all that I can account for) I better go now I have to call my lawyer and five witness, I have cards to send out.
Trevor

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Posted By: Prewarsports.com

I sent in 131 to get graded, and when they arrived at SGC they claimed to have only received 129. The cards they lost were a very rare Diaz cigarettes card and a NrMt/Mt E121 card. At first they were very nice and told me they would credit me for the insured value of each card, which was about $150. About 2 weeks went by and I got a phone call from the same person, I think his name was Shane, or Sean and he told me flat out that the deal he had mentioned to me before was OFF and that SGC's stance (according to a higher authority in the company) was that I was lying, and they never received the other 2 cards. They offered the generous sum of $20 credit (where they got that is anyone's guess). However, they never credited me and they even charged me to grade all 131 cards. I have never pressed the issue since I would never use a credit with SGC after this incident anyways.

I hope this helps Dan out is some way, I have bought several things from him and hope PSA ends up dealing more fairly with him than SGC did with me.

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Posted By: MW

Rhys,

Can you post an image of the two lost cards?

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Posted By: Prewarsports

I will try to find them on disk somewhere, otherwise I may not have the images anymore. This took place last October.

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Posted By: runscott

Any time there is a thread that involves a PSA-related problem, you always have people come in and say "yes, but SGC...", and then the standard comments inferring that this is a SGC board, which it isn't...and finally, the CU kids come over and throw in their two cents as well (this should be any day now). It was so bad for a while that many of us just refused to participate in any threads that said anything slightly bad about PSA, because we knew the formula. But we continued to participate in any threads involving SGC problems, because SGC has been much more open to constructive criticism and to improving their product and service. PSA, on the other hand (and some of their followers on this board) would prefer to just pretend that the problems don't exist, or to "counter-attack" with SGC problems, diverting attention.

Hate to disappoint these people, but if Dan's problem were with SGC, we would still be trying to help him and the basic look and feel of the thread would be the same. The biggest difference is that I suspect something would have gotten done about the problem and this thread would have died far short of 142 posts.

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Posted By: TBob

If all cases are filed in the home jurisdiction of PSA (based on the forum small print requirement you subjected yourself to in their contract), you might be able to run a search of the county courthouse records with "PSA" (whatever their formal corporate name is) as a defendant and see if this type claim has been litigated before. Just a thought...