Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly

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Posted By: RC_McKenzie

I cannot be a member of the jury because I have communicated with Dan Mckee and PSA before and have formed an opinion about each. They are both sort of my peers. Their case would need to be decided by a bunch of folks who don't have the sense to get out of jury duty.


When I first got back into the hobby a few years ago, McKee emailed me to explain that what I was selling on ebay was not an Orange Border as I had mistakenly advertised it, but rather a Baseball Bats.

Around the same time, my first submission to PSA, a T213-2 Cobb bat away, came back a T206 Cobb.

I would take your case pro-bono and try to get it on MSNBC's Countdown show, but I am one of the few members of my family who is not an attorney.

Good Luck.

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Posted By: Jay Miller

Dan--People keep referring to the fact that, according to PSA terms and conditions, any litigation must take place in California. However, since this card was, according to PSA, not received, and therefore no submission form for it was received, then for this card you did not agree to PSA's terms and conditions. As such, you should be able to pursue a claim in any venue of your choosing. You cannot be bound by something you did not agree to.

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Posted By: dan mckee

Jay, That is an incredible point! Makes sense to me and I like it! Thanks for the advice. take care, Dan.
Thank you also Tbob, that is a good suggestion that I will persue as well.

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Posted By: carew4me

Wow,
Any love for poster Prewarsports.com ?

Seems as though he suffered a similar fate, yet where is self righteous indignation?

Interesting the silence. Come on guys, SGC admitted receiving 2 cards THEY LOST. They called the guy a LIAR! Even made him pay for the lost grading fee's?

Where is the moral outrage??

I think I know. I think we all know.

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Posted By: Jay Miller

That event occurred eight months ago. If it had been reported at that time I'm sure that people would have had similar reactions. However, that's not the point. The fact that SGC should have corrected a problem eigth months ago does not obviate PSA from the responsibility of responding to today's problem. This PSA vs SGC bull**** is just that---bull****. The problem is a grading company problem and the answer should be the same regardless of which three letters are picked out of the alphabet soup. If a grading company mistreats its customers it should be exposed, and pressure should be placed on it to clean up its act.

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Posted By: carew4me

So in 8 months, Dan's problem won't be a problem.


Got it.

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Posted By: Jimmy L.

Looks like someone has a hidden agenda...
Are they paying well at PSA?

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Posted By: Marc S.

Honestly, I am much more a PSA guy than an SGC guy (I am on the CU forums often as "mikeschmidt"). I think you are comparing apples vs. oranges, though, and just trying to stir up problems that no one feels compelled to talk about.

EVERY person I know has had some sort of problem somewhere along the line with a grading company. Whether it is on a submission, an overgraded card, a trimmed card being encapsulted, etc., every collectors runs into this one day or another.

The person was talking about two cards worth $150 that was lost a long time ago. Much different than a $6,000 card that was lost very recently.

Whether or not you agree with Mr. McKee on this matter (I think both sides have made mistakes and/or could have handled things differently), bringing up this other minor issue really is close to irrelevant.

Just my thoughts, Sir. The vast majority of people on this board are very experienced collectors that have much more overall knowledge of the history of this hobby than many of those over on the CU board. Even though I do not agree with everyone's opinion here, there are but a limited handful that post off-the-wall, inappropriate comments. I enjoy talking with people that I disagree with, as long as I respect them and they have the capacity to be persuasive.

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Posted By: Prewarsports.com

We did not make the earlier post to start any SGC vs. PSA debate, or even to make SGC look bad. We simply were reporting that similar situations have happened with SGC, although possibly not with the same frequency. The reason we didn't report it earlier is because the two cards we lost, while being nice cards, aren't worth nearly the amount of Dan's Magie. Believe me I dislike PSA as much as I do SGC, grading companies however are a necessary evil at the time being. We have done business with Dan, and can vouch for his honesty. With that being said, I would like to thank everyone for their sympathy about our two cards being lost.

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Posted By: Anonymous

If the grading company was SGC, and it happened to Dan, we'd still be doing whatever we could to help out. You, on the other hand, don't have Dan's reputation, and the road you're travelling currently isn't going to get you there.

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Posted By: runscott

If the grading company was SGC, and it happened to Dan, we'd still be doing whatever we could to help out. You, on the other hand, don't have Dan's reputation, and the road you're travelling currently isn't going to get you there.

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Posted By: dan mckee

Police Report number 03-167-1338. If anyone spots this card please contact me at r337man@yahoo.com. I am fuzzy on what to do when it is found so if there is anyone here knowlegable in this area, please advise. It should be easy to tell with the particular flaws. Thanks again for all of the support. Dan.

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Posted By: david

i would contact vcbc, beckett, tuff stuff and scd. send them a copy of the police report along with the best scans you have of the front and the back. they usually print this sort of thing when there is a high profile theft. it would get the word out to a lot of people that the card is stolen when it turns up again.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

including every grading service out there and every big-time dealer and auction house. Be sure to send each a scan or printout of the item in question.

The main issue here is void versus voidable title. A thief has void title--he cannot every pass on a stolen item legitimately. Someone who finds an item has voidable title, at worst. There is a doctrine of law, called the bona fide purchaser rule, that permits a person with voidable title to convey an item to a buyer, who is then permitted to keep the item if he is a truly innocent buyer who paid fair value for the item. This principle is included in every state's common law jurisprudence or in the version of the Uniform Commercial Code it has adopted. So, if someone at PSA stole the card and tried to sell it, and you could trace it all the way up the chain, you would probably be able to prove void title and you could probably get it back. If the garbage man found the card in the trash and sold it, you would probably be SOL in getting it back (there are some nuances with California found property laws, but it isn't material to the issue of passing title). If the thief sold the card anonymously at a show and the card passed through several more hands, you would probably have a voidable title issue and you would probably lose the case, since you would not be able to prove that the card was stolen, as opposed to lost.

The key here from your standpoint is taking every precaution you can to see to it that dealers in CA and grading services are made aware of the theft. I would do a mass email to every dealer advertising in SCD and the SMR, for starters, and every other dealer you can locate in Southern CA. Keep a record of each email. That way, if the card is offered to an honest (I know. . .)dealer you've notified of the loss, you may have a shot at getting the card back. Otherwise, if a dealer simply buys the card from someone without knowledge of its title issues, you are probably not going to be able to get it back, even if you sue, because of the bona fide purchaser rule.

I would also notify PSA of the loss and send them a scan. Some people might just be stupid enough to steal it from PSA and then have a friend submit it to PSA.

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Posted By: dan mckee

Thanks, I have already started sending the scans to the other major grading services and stating that the card was submitted to PSA and may be lost or stolen and to keep an eye out. Everything you stated makes good sense except the last sentence, Since the PSA exectutives had trashed me, I am sure an email or letter from me will go right in the trash bin. I guess I can still send it. Where can I find SMR dealers in CA? Is there a list of them on the PSA website? Dan.

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Posted By: dan mckee

Here is the wording I am sending out: Please let me know if this is legal and ok. Thanks





Hello Global,


Please be on the look out for the attached T206 Magie error card. It was submitted to PSA and is now missing from there. Baltimore County Maryland Police Report number 03-167-1338.


If you see this card, please contact me directly or your local police department.


Thank you for your cooperation in this delicate matter.


Sincerely,
Dan Mckee

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Posted By: Mike McGrail

... a reward for anyone who helps you locate the card?

I have no clue if this would help or not but I thought I'd pass the idea on.

Keep fightin' the good fight!!

Mike

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Posted By: dan mckee

Absolutely! I would gladly give an award to someone for locating the card as long as I got it back. If I gave an award just for locating it and I couldn't get it back, I would be out more $$$$. I am already struggling a bit from this hit. Shame on them!