Probably time to talk about all those Factory30's on...

[swarmee]

eBay last week. Which ones were previously unconfirmed backs? Who got them? Did the sales get scuttled by an unscrupulous backdoor deal?

[Leon]

I didn't see them. Did they get pulled before closing?

[Thromdog]

Al Burch fielding
Bill Bradley batting
Rube Manning pitching
George McQuillan batting
Heinie Wagner right shoulder

All with Sweet Cap 350-46 fact 30 and all were considered probable no prints when referencing t206resource.

Auction ended June 30th and all 5 finished around $190 each and were all in nice condition. None of the auctions had any description on origination but I think it's obvious the cards came from a stored away collection or were part of some "find".

Winning bidder was the same for all of them..... Net54er????

[swarmee]

http://www.ebay.com/sch/kwb1b/m.html...p2046732.m1684

Here they are.

[mrvster]

WOW!!!! has jim or tim been notified???

[CMIZ5290]

I'm pretty sure I have this card in an SGC 86....I will check tonight.

[Luke]

These are still unconfirmed. All of these cards are hand cut. My guess is they were scheduled to get the 42 overprint, but didn't for some reason, and were cut up carefully and stored together for a very long time. I was the under-bidder on the 5 big ones. If the winner wants to PM me, I have a couple more thoughts about them.

[Brian Weisner]

Hey Luke,
I was thinking along the same lines... Especially after looking closely at the scans.... Be well Brian

[t206hound]

I recall another card posted in the last year or so that appeared to be a card that didn't get the 42 overprint. Need to look for that thread.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[frohme]

In this thread?

Originally Posted by t206hound

I recall another card posted in the last year or so that appeared to be a card that didn't get the 42 overprint. Need to look for that thread.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[brianp-beme]

Search on net54 for thread with T206 Sweet Caporal Magee in the title and you shall find what you seek, says the spider to the fly.

Brian

[t206hound]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

Search on net54 for thread with T206 Sweet Caporal Magee in the title and you shall find what you seek, says the spider to the fly.

Brian

Thanks... this is it:
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=185417


scans from the thread:

[sreader3]

Very nice catch -- I missed these on eBay. Super interesting, but I think in the end they are scrap -- akin to the "yellow brown" 350/460 RP SC 460/30s scrap that were previously known.

Essentially I agree with Luke. These were likely intended to be SC 460/42 overstrikes but were discarded as a sheet before the overstrike and hand-cut.

Scot

[Sean]

Originally Posted by sreader3

Very nice catch -- I missed these on eBay. Super interesting, but I think in the end they are scrap -- akin to the "yellow brown" 350/460 RP SC 460/30s scrap that were previously known.

Essentially I agree with Luke. These were likely intended to be SC 460/42 overstrikes but were discarded as a sheet before the overstrike and hand-cut.

Scot

+1 This explanation makes the most sense to me. Interesting that they've stayed together in the same collection for so long.

[Pat R]

I was wondering if anyone got any information from the seller about these.
Berger Back Group.jpgConroy (bat) Back Group.jpgAttachment 248026

I think someone mentioned in another thread about them that the seller
told them he was selling them for someone else.

I had contacted the seller while he was still listing them and I told him
that I wasn't looking to do any off ebay deals I was just interested
in some background info if he was willing to share that. He did get
back to me and said he was busy and would email me when he
had time but he never did get back to me. I did send him another email
after he sold what he claimed was the last one but he never responded.

[Jobu]

The seller told me that s/he was selling them on behalf of someone else and never knew how many more there were because the owner brought them to him/her in the batches in which they were listed. I also recall seeing a mention of the last group so I assume the owner told the seller that this was the end. I was too scared to pay up to get one of the missing OPs because it could have been a big waste of money if there ended up being 30 of each.

I did buy one of the seller's other apparent scraps that was a F30 confirmed as both F30 and F42 OP. This card makes me wonder about sheet layouts - whether a) the printer also scrapped a sheet of F30s that contained cards that were actually issued or b) the 42 OP was applied only to certain cards on a sheet. a) seems much more likely but b) would create some wild patterns. Also in favor of a) is that there were pencil lines on many of the missing OP cards and this one doesn't have them so multiple sheets may have been scrapped.

BTW - if we ever find out that someone cut up a full sheet in 2016 to sell them as singles I will violently throw up.

[Vintageismygame]

This "find" comes from around the Wichita, Kansas area and the seller is Rock's Dugout in Wichita. I know this because I was there when he had all the cards.

Many of these never made it to the public . . . ask me how I know

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Jobu

The seller told me that s/he was selling them on behalf of someone else and never knew how many more there were because the owner brought them to him/her in the batches in which they were listed. I also recall seeing a mention of the last group so I assume the owner told the seller that this was the end. I was too scared to pay up to get one of the missing OPs because it could have been a big waste of money if there ended up being 30 of each.

I did buy one of the seller's other apparent scraps that was a F30 confirmed as both F30 and F42 OP. This card makes me wonder about sheet layouts - whether a) the printer also scrapped a sheet of F30s that contained cards that were actually issued or b) the 42 OP was applied only to certain cards on asheet. a) seems much more likely but b) would create some wild patterns. Also in favor of a) is that there were pencil lines on many of the missing OP cards and this one doesn't have them so multiple sheets may have been scrapped.

BTW - if we ever find out that someone cut up a full sheet in 2016 to sell them as singles I will violently throw up.

Hey Bryan, I agree that a) seems more logical than b). I think I have scans of all of the confirmed and "probable no prints" that were sold on ebay and although there were 72 of the confirmed Factory 30's sold, many with definite hand cuts I couldn't find one with pencil marks while as you stated there were many "no prints" with pencil marks on them.

[tedzan]

There are 2 groups of these SWEET CAPORAL 350-460, Factory #30 cards. This "split-personality" of the 350/460 series was explained
in a thread presented on this forum in April 2016. Check-out this thread....http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=220948

FYI....these 2 groups of cards are displayed here......

Group A

.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Group B





TED Z
.

[sreader3]

Hi Ted,

Thanks for reviving the April 2016 350/460 profile thread--which was very enlightening.

Sorry I missed your last post on that thread (which I just realized).

Scot

[Pat R]

Grouping subjects together can become complicating. There is evidence
that the layouts changed on different brands and there is even evidence that they changed within the same series and backs.

There were 107 of the factory 30 "no-prints" that were sold on ebay (that I know of) by the same seller, all of them are in
Ted's group B. Multiple examples of every subject in "group B" were sold with the exception of Lajoie, there were no sales of a lajoie example.

Now if you compare this group of Factory 30 "no prints" to one of the test print scraps
with a similar group there a few of outliers.
Test Print Scrap.jpg
Test Print Scrap group.jpg
Represented on the back of these scraps are:
Conroy (With Bat)
McQuillan (With Bat)
Pelty (Vertical)
Burch (Fielding)
Crawford (With Bat)
Mullin (With Bat)
Lake (St Louis-No Ball)
Willetts
Jordan (Batting)
Wagner (Bat On Right Shoulder)
Willis (Batting)
Bradley (With Bat)
Manning (Pitching)
Steinfeldt (With Bat)

All of these are 350-460 subjects and are in both Ted's group B and the group of Factory 30 "no-prints that were sold on ebay.

But also on the backs of these are:
Marquard (pitching)
Schaefer (Washington
Seymour (Portrait)

These three are 460 only subjects. The Schaefer and Seymour are on the
same card so that could be explained by the possibility of more than one
scrap sheet of these but the Marquard (460 only) is next to a Mcquillan (Bat) a 350-460 subject on the same card together.

[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by Vintageismygame

This "find" comes from around the Wichita, Kansas area and the seller is Rock's Dugout in Wichita. I know this because I was there when he had all the cards.

Many of these never made it to the public . . . ask me how I know

Hi Matt, So i'm asking, how do you know? I need a Lajoie With Bat Factory 30 No Print.

Thanks, Ron

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Ronnie73

Hi Matt, So i'm asking, how do you know? I need a Lajoie With Bat Factory 30 No Print.

With the winking face below, I interpreted it to mean that he bought all of them.

[Pat R]

I spoke with Joe from Rocks Dugout, he said he Didn't have much information
on them but he did say that the person brought in over 400 T206 cards that
originated from an estate sale in NY.

[Pat R]

There was a group of nine no prints in PSA holders that recently sold
on ebay and none of them came from this large group that was sold
on ebay in 2015-16 so it looks like at least a couple of sheets survived
from the scrap pile.

No Print Group - Copy.jpg

[Ronnie73]

Are we sure that these cards were not part of the find? I know it was mentioned that there were over 400 cards. I have scans of the 2015-2016 listings but haven't compared them to these cards yet, to see if these were ones sold then and just now graded.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Ronnie73

Are we sure that these cards were not part of the find? I know it was mentioned that there were over 400 cards. I have scans of the 2015-2016 listings but haven't compared them to these cards yet, to see if these were ones sold then and just now graded.

Hi Ron,

There is information that some of them were sold off ebay so I can't say
for sure that these aren't from that group but none of them match the
ones sold on ebay and they all seem to have slightly rounder corners.

Here's the Wagner that sold recently on ebay. It has several print spots
that don't match any of the six that sold in the 2015-16 group on ebay.
Wagner ebay.jpg
Wagner%20_1__1.jpg

[Ronnie73]

Interesting print spots. I remember reading an article somewhere a few years before these cards started showing up, about an old time collector/researcher that confirmed that these cards existed. I just don't remember where I read it.

[t206fix]

Curious, I picked up this no print Wilhelm from Greg Morris about a week ago. Had to wait until I had the card in hand to confirm (I didn't want a back scan mix up). It looks like GM was selling a collection of t206s, he had 30+ listed back to back closing on Sunday and this was buried in the listings. It had quite a few watchers and I was surprised I won it. As you can see the sides are not butchered with scissors like the others found in the kwb1b find, but I'm pretty certain it's from the same collection (see next post). Or, the two finds could be related (see Pat's post #25 above). In the above post, the cards are not chopped up like kwb1b find, but I wonder if they come from the same printing date. Maybe someone grabbed a few sheets on their way out the door and they were split up over time (some sheets to a guy who knew how to cut and some to a kindergartner with dull scissors.)



Does anyone have a Wilhelm NP from the "other" find I can compare it to? I know that Ted mentioned in post 181 of his monster thread that David Hall had previously found 28 sc.460.30 no prints (Wilhelm wasn't on the list). Would love to see scans of all of those as well to see if they are connected.

[t206fix]

Here are 4 of the klb1b cards, and notice they all have brown and green bleeding into the border. The GM card does as well.

Also, note that they hall have that little "center" line right above the name. Most of these cards are missing these as well.

Seems to be these are from the same sheet, or at least printed around the same time. Any thoughts?

[Pat R]

Hi Tony, I"m on a tablet right now but when I get back to my computer I'll check the
folder I have on these to see if I have any different Wilhelm's from the ones you posted.
I have scans of all the no prints that sold and I do know that all of cards had matching
color shifts.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by t206fix

Here are 4 of the klb1b cards, and notice they all have brown and green bleeding into the border. The GM card does as well.

Also, note that they hall have that little "center" line right above the name. Most of these cards are missing these as well.

Seems to be these are from the same sheet, or at least printed around the same time. Any thoughts?

Well that's a surprise. I can't see enough detail on the centerline, but they're probably identical. Which means they're probably from the same position on multiple sheets. If it was one sheet, they should have small differences, like some with the centerline and some without.


I'd think that printed at the same time is as certain as we can get without being there. Once it's set, the registration won't vary much at all.

[t206fix]

Sorry guys, my pictures of pictures are very small. Here are the larger scans, and hopefully you can see better:

Also, notice below his right elbow there is a small window of white by the border.

[Pat R]

Hi Tony, I do have one other Wilhelm from the ebay seller.

Wilhelm [1] - Copy.jpg

#1 in your group is #4 your #2 is #2 in mine your #3 is #1 in mine
and your #4 is #5 in mine. You're missing #3 here's a larger scan of
the front and back.

Wilhelm%20_3_.jpg Wilhelm%20Back%20_3_.jpg

in your large scans #3 and #4 are scans of the same card.

[steve B]

After a quick look, it gets more interesting.

They may be different positions.
I didn't see any 350's with the centerline, or any 350-460's without it. And there do seem to be slight differences, but they could just be inking levels.

[t206fix]

Factory line tends to move around on the back of these cards as well.
On three, the B cuts the Y right down the middle while on the same card the J doesn't touch the 0. On the other three, the B cuts the Y to the right and the J does touch the 0.

Steve, does this mean same sheet, but different backs
or different sheets?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by t206fix

Factory line tends to move around on the back of these cards as well.
On three, the B cuts the Y right down the middle while on the same card the J doesn't touch the 0. On the other three, the B cuts the Y to the right and the J does touch the 0.

Steve, does this mean same sheet, but different backs
or different sheets?

Nice catch! That would be a small difference between backs on the same sheet. I've seen it shown before, but haven't studied it much at all. So different positions on the sheet. The ones that are the same might be the same position on a different sheet.

It also means that the factory line wasn't part of the overall back, but was added individually. It's probably true for all the SC cards and Piedmont 350-460 cards. I'm not sure about others. It seems like a lot of extra work if you know a brand is only from one factory, but maybe.


Finding out how many slightly different backs there are for the same front and matching them with similar slight differences on the fronts should eventually give us an idea of how many cards the sheet was vertically. Sort of like the plate scratches, but not as obvious, and with no way to tell which one was above another one (Aside from miscuts, but there's too few of those. ) Or if there were two different fronts in the same vertical row and how many of each.

[steve B]

The J touches the O differently in all 3, so those are 3 different positions.
I haven't spotted a clear difference in the other 3, except maybe one had a slightly deformed Y?

So 4-5 different positions out of 6 cards.

[Pat R]

There are stains on the back of some of the cards. I'm not sure but they
might have been from the full sheet before it was cut down.

Here are a couple of Wagners that might have been together vertically #2 and #5.

Wagner _1__1.jpg
Wagner Back _1__1.jpg
Wagner Back [2].jpg