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  #1  
Old 03-30-2009, 01:39 AM
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Default Is Beckett (BGS) starting to gain respect in the pre-war community?

Posted By: Bilko G

Well for many years now BGS has had tremendous respect and a very strong following with the very modern card collectors (1998-present), especially with Baseball "prospectors" and their precious Bowman Chrome autograph rookie cards. Some modern collectors even go as far as saying "something is wrong" with a, for example, Justin Upton Gold refractor RC that is graded by PSA and not BGS. Well with all the recent "scares" and fraud that is going on with many vintage and pre-war PSA graded cards, do you guys see more and more Pre WW2 and vintage collectors switching over to BGS slabs for the added comfort of not only the best protection, but also to feel safe from potential fraud? Beckett claims to have "The strongest slabs in the business" and isn't that what people would want protecting their thousands upon thousands of dollars worth of investments? Im seeing more and more high grade, valuable vintage and pre war cards in BGS holders. What do you guys think and is anyone else thinking about doing more of their grading with BGS?

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Old 03-30-2009, 02:22 AM
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Default Is Beckett (BGS) starting to gain respect in the pre-war community?

Posted By: Bobby Binder

I see every graded card in auctions on eBay and in the major auction houses. For the most part in Pre-war there is very little offered in this area that is Beckett graded and for the most part what is graded by Beckett is also being sold by Beckett. In the other auction houses it is even less or basically none, except for the one graded T206 Wagner I can't recall any others.

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  #3  
Old 03-30-2009, 03:35 AM
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Default Is Beckett (BGS) starting to gain respect in the pre-war community?

Posted By: Dave F



Well they haven't exactly gained "respect" in my eyes.


This was a card I was bidding on last night. It has some obvious stains of some sort...water I would guess on the front and back...and it was graded a Beckett 4. I went with the assumption of it being an SGC 30 or so....not a 50. I thought some of the other Zeenuts that sold last night in the Beckett holders were also suspect for their grades, and I have no idea why Beckett is selling their slabbed cards on ebay....totally seems screwy to me.


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&it em=290303622205

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  #4  
Old 03-30-2009, 06:10 AM
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Default Is Beckett (BGS) starting to gain respect in the pre-war community?

Posted By: T206Collector

As long as Beckett fails to understand that people collect scans of their cards and those baggies make scans look weird, they will continue to lose my business -- unless necessitated by a JSA certification.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Visithttp://www.t206collector.com for Net54 T206 archive, signed deadball card galleries, articles and more!

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  #5  
Old 03-30-2009, 07:03 AM
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Default Is Beckett (BGS) starting to gain respect in the pre-war community?

Posted By: Doug

I don't think having that BCCG around helps any. When you see all these cards graded Good or better, mint or better, etc. it takes away from the regular BVG service IMO.

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  #6  
Old 03-30-2009, 01:15 PM
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Default Is Beckett (BGS) starting to gain respect in the pre-war community?

Posted By: Bilko G

Dave F- While i do agree that a grading company selling their own graded cards is a huge conflict of interest, you also gotta know that most of these BGS cards you see for sale in the Beckett media store are consignment sales and a lot of the time where already graded in the past, before being put on consignment with Beckett. As for the Zeenut auctions that you posted, if what davecycleback posted in his thread stays true, these graders have no idea for whom they are grading for. For example, the graders would have had no idea that the Zeenuts they were grading, would later be for sale by consignment in Beckett's ebay store. I really do believe this to be true because if something otherwise got out to the public, it could destroy a company's reputation for a very long time, perhaps forever.

T206 collector- Sorry to hear that you are not a fan of the inner sleeve that BGS uses. I personally love the inner sleeve as it guarantee's that there will be no movement of the card inside the slab. I know i own several PSA cards, that the card has a tremendous amount of movement in, that i cringe every time i see that card move in the slab. As far as scanning BGS cards, perhaps its your scanner that does not like them? I know i see many BGS cards on ebay and other message boards that scan really well and the inner sleeve can not even be seen.

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  #7  
Old 03-30-2009, 01:21 PM
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Default Is Beckett (BGS) starting to gain respect in the pre-war community?

Posted By: Matt

Bilko - it's not just Paul's scanner.




My Trade/Sale Page

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  #8  
Old 03-30-2009, 01:43 PM
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Default Is Beckett (BGS) starting to gain respect in the pre-war community?

Posted By: Erick Lewin

I have a few prewar graded cards by them, that had already been graded when I bought them. the ones I have, the grades seem right on. I do hate that plastic insert with scans though.

I have a few shiny cards graded by beckett too, and grades seem very accurate. Also holders are very strong. I do have to agree with there being a conflict of interest when they sell their cards though.

Also another conflict of interest is in there current price guides; they list prices of high dollar RC's and other star cards that have been graded. Their graded cards I see always are listed with the highest prices in their guides. I don't believe I ever saw a PSA, SGC or any other grading service having a card with the same grade listed at a higher price. Maybe sometimes BGS cards do sell for more (with newer cards), than other services. However, I never see them list another grading service example higher. It just doesn't seem right them valuing their own stuff higher every time. It makes you wonder cause and effect. Do BGS cards sometimes sell higher simply because they're listed higher? (Chicken or the egg?) Granted I havn't bought a new issue of Beckett in a while and I'm not even sure if they still list graded card prices, but they used to at least.

Pros: Very Strong holder
Pretty accurate grading, especially with new stuff

Cons: Conflicts of interest with selling and pricing of their own stuff
Plastic baggy that interferes with scans
Percieved lack of expertise with rarer prewar issues.......

E. Lewin

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  #9  
Old 03-30-2009, 02:34 PM
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Default Is Beckett (BGS) starting to gain respect in the pre-war community?

Posted By: Jason L

pretty accurate grading, especially with the newer stuff...

What range of years/issues are you talking about?
not to sound snotty towards you, (honest question here) -but generally, wouldn't you agree, it's hard to get things too wrong for brand new stuff between grades 8, 9, and 10?
how do you judge the accuracy aspect when the product is usually so nice?

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  #10  
Old 03-30-2009, 02:41 PM
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Default Is Beckett (BGS) starting to gain respect in the pre-war community?

Posted By: Greg B.

I think that is a fine "4". Would you rather send it to GAI?
GB

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  #11  
Old 03-30-2009, 02:48 PM
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Default Is Beckett (BGS) starting to gain respect in the pre-war community?

Posted By: Mark Anderson

Hey guys,

Yeah yeah yeah - the "inner sleeves and scanning" problem. I never understand why, but some people scan them perfectly fine - others can't - and I don't know what the trick is that half the people have figured out! Yes, the sleeves can definitely make it more difficult, but honestly, I don't see us ever deciding that the scan-ability of the card is more important than the protection, and the fact is that the inner sleeve does indeed protect better than anything else on the market. I wish I had a solution for both, but don't. We just crack way too many other holders where the cards have holder damage or insert damage.

As to the conflict of interest in the price guides, I encourage you to pick up a Graded Card Investor and look through it. They do not price them by company, but by grade. They then list exact selling prices on key cards from auctions, etc., but they specifically list the grading company and exact sales price. So I believe all of your concerns have been addressed on that end.

Thanks,
Mark

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  #12  
Old 03-30-2009, 02:54 PM
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Default Is Beckett (BGS) starting to gain respect in the pre-war community?

Posted By: JimB

They should stop selling cards. Wasn't that the whole point of 3RD PARTY grading?
JimB

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  #13  
Old 03-30-2009, 03:04 PM
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Default Is Beckett (BGS) starting to gain respect in the pre-war community?

Posted By: Bob

I ignore the BGS grade and bid on the card as if it were raw.
Just my 2 cents worth.

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  #14  
Old 03-30-2009, 03:32 PM
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Default Is Beckett (BGS) starting to gain respect in the pre-war community?

Posted By: James Gallo

I realize the holders are protecting the card, but they are just too damn big. If you put a t206 or e90 in one of those things there is like 2 inches or more of clear plastic all the way around. I haven't seen enough cards damaged by holders to say that the "protection" factor makes me want to change over.

I liked it more when the vintage service showed the sub grades but they don't do that anymore.

That being said with 1990s to current cards they are the strictest company and a BGS 10 will bring a premium over a PSA 10 or SGC 98.

I really don't like the big holders, or the baggies.

I think the sub grades are nice and the holders are solid.

I think beckett is a solid 3 but I don't think they can get much market share in the pre-war world unless PSA goes under.

James G

Looking for 1915 Cracker Jacks and 1909-11 American Caramel E90-1.

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  #15  
Old 03-30-2009, 03:41 PM
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Default Is Beckett (BGS) starting to gain respect in the pre-war community?

Posted By: Jason

I have no problems with BVG. I've successfully crossed all the ones I bought to SGC.

I'm married to SGC but should they close the doors tomorrow I'd probably go with BVG. I do like their holders. The inner sleeve doesn't bother me at all.

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  #16  
Old 03-30-2009, 03:46 PM
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Default Is Beckett (BGS) starting to gain respect in the pre-war community?

Posted By: Anonymous

Jason L:

For the pretty accurate grading/newer stuff coment. I'm speaking from a very limited perspective. Just the maybe dozen or so newer cards I have graded by them. And also just by seeing scans on ebay (not that you can tell too much from a scan) .Im certainly not giving them a ringing endorsement. By newer stuff I mean mostly 1990s- current. I have maybe a half dozen prewar ( a few goudeys, a cracker jack, few various others) cards graded by them and they seem accurate for grades anyway, imo.

That being stated, Obviously I'm talking about an extremely small sample size. So my opinion on their grading accuracy shouldn't carry much weight. Im just stating my opinions for the cent or 2 that it's worth.

Overall SGC is head and shoulders above anyone else IMO for prewar grading.

E. Lewin

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  #17  
Old 03-30-2009, 04:57 PM
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Default Is Beckett (BGS) starting to gain respect in the pre-war community?

Posted By: Rand

well, seems to me this post is an advert for Beckett, all thats missing are the monthly specials for pre war grading specials. i liked beckett, i like the holders with the gold labels and the baggy does not bother me. however, i Hate the fact they are auctioning their own graded cards. i dont care if they are consignments, how do we know they arent the cards of the management or a collection someone in the company found? as they send more cards to market, i am seeing some overgrading when it comes to corners and stains. anybody that collects cards for registry sets will be busting the beckett holder anyway for crossover. imo, if psa feels they are starting to make an impact on their business they will not cross cards over to equal grades if still in the holders, especially high grade stuff. i would bid on beckett cards if i thought i could get them cheaper than sgc/psa counterpart, i would not send any in for grading. i am only referring to older cards not modern stuff.

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  #18  
Old 03-30-2009, 05:13 PM
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Default Is Beckett (BGS) starting to gain respect in the pre-war community?

Posted By: Phil Garry

As others have already mentioned, Andy Broome & Mark Anderson do an outstanding job. Beckett's new oversize holders open up a whole new world of opportunities to grade newspaper & magazine supplements (ie - M101-1's, M101-2's, etc.) that could nver fit into another company's holder before. I have already used Beckett for 20+ oversize pieces and every one came out great. These guys definitely have my support!!!

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  #19  
Old 03-30-2009, 05:36 PM
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Default Is Beckett (BGS) starting to gain respect in the pre-war community?

Posted By: Fred C

As previously stated (a few times now) - Grading and Selling cards (both) just doesn't seem quite right.

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  #20  
Old 03-30-2009, 06:19 PM
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Default Is Beckett (BGS) starting to gain respect in the pre-war community?

Posted By: John J. Grillo

Let's be honest with ourselves here...after all Derek Grady is head grader at SGC who used to be head grader at a major auction house...are we to assume those ties no longer exist? What about Dave Forman? PSA was/is affiliated itself with Superior Auctions for some time. I was once a vintage but now just a modern, shiney-junk collector, but BGS still grades my cards fairly accurately...what more can I ask?

With the exception of GAI in my opinion, PSA/SGC/BGS has benefited the hobby tremendously. I think although there are imperfections with all three, I still think PSA, SGC, and BVG/BGS are a plus, in spite of the perceived conflicts of interest.

But although this horse has been beaten dead a thousand times, I still think this rings true...SGC for prewar, PSA for 50's - 70's sets because of the registry, and BGS for modern. Each TPG has established a certain niche within the hobby that still holds true today. Man, I love this hobby!

Edited for Grammer and Punctuation only!

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  #21  
Old 03-30-2009, 06:31 PM
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Default Is Beckett (BGS) starting to gain respect in the pre-war community?

Posted By: Anonymous


John-

I don't think Derek Grady or Dave Foreman's company is directly benefiting from selling an SGC graded card on ebay. I do think Beckett does. Be it their card or a consignment...they are getting a percentage of that sale, obviously that sale can go a little higher if cards are graded with a lazy eye.


I think it's a little crazy to put Grady or Foreman in the same category.

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  #22  
Old 03-30-2009, 06:45 PM
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Default Is Beckett (BGS) starting to gain respect in the pre-war community?

Posted By: Wesley

I like the Beckett holder and think the Beckett holder is safer for cards than the SGC or PSA holders. I do not own many BVG cards, but the ones that I have seen look accurately graded.

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  #23  
Old 03-30-2009, 07:42 PM
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Default Is Beckett (BGS) starting to gain respect in the pre-war community?

Posted By: Mark Holt

To answer the thread title:

Nope.

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  #24  
Old 03-31-2009, 02:58 AM
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Default Is Beckett (BGS) starting to gain respect in the pre-war community?

Posted By: davidcycleback

I wouldn't want to be a grader for any of the companies. Even modern cards are altered and faked. I prefer my ivory tower.

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  #25  
Old 03-31-2009, 04:05 AM
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Default Is Beckett (BGS) starting to gain respect in the pre-war community?

Posted By: Bilko G

To answer the thread title:

Nope.


Well according to some of the posters in here, it sounds like they are. They are with me, that's for sure.

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  #26  
Old 03-31-2009, 05:26 AM
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Default Is Beckett (BGS) starting to gain respect in the pre-war community?

Posted By: Bobby Binder

"Well according to some of the posters in here, it sounds like they are. They are with me, that's for sure."

Looks like 3 out of 25 post agree with you does not seem like an overwhelming show of support for your cause.

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  #27  
Old 03-31-2009, 06:43 AM
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Default Is Beckett (BGS) starting to gain respect in the pre-war community?

Posted By: Scott Levy

I am willing to stand up for any grading company that has enough integrity to admit past grading mistakes, take accountability for them and make the situation right without an extreme amount of arm-twisting.

While the BVG of the past failed this test, I rate the current Beckett quite high here.

When it comes down to it....what more can you ask of a grading company than to stand behind the accuracy of their grades and make buyers whole when things go wrong. In my opinion that is one of the key things that I'm paying for when I buy a graded card --- the assurance that the card is indeed as described (or at least that I won't be harmed if it isn't).

I will also add that I recently auctioned off several Beckett T206 cards and that they brought nearly the same value as SGC/PSA cards would have.

Regards,
Scott

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Old 03-31-2009, 06:54 AM
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Default Is Beckett (BGS) starting to gain respect in the pre-war community?

Posted By: Eric

Scott makes a good point.

I too will stand up for them. I purchased my first two BVG T206's and I think they did a pretty decent job grading them. And they commanded pretty strong prices.

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  #29  
Old 03-31-2009, 06:55 AM
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Default Is Beckett (BGS) starting to gain respect in the pre-war community?

Posted By: leon

As is known some of the Beckett guys I count as friends (don't hold that against them) and they are an advertiser here too.
That being said I trust them far more than I do PSA. They are human and will make mistakes. When they make them they own up to them, correct the issue, and learn from it. I would buy a high grade BVG card any day over a high grade PSA one. Their holders are certainly the strongest...though I admit the inner baggy can get in the way of scans. If I had to pick between PSA and BVG, there is no question I have more confidence in the pre-war BVG card getting graded correctly. That's my half cent...

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Old 03-31-2009, 10:21 AM
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Default Is Beckett (BGS) starting to gain respect in the pre-war community?

Posted By: Steve F

Their big mutha holder ain't real pretty, but tougher than a Tiger tank.

[linked image]





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  #31  
Old 03-31-2009, 08:31 PM
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Default Is Beckett (BGS) starting to gain respect in the pre-war community?

Posted By: Lance

In a very late response to the opening question, I trust them more than PSA and consider them #2 in my book. PSA has done nothing but disappoint me when I try to cross to SGC, but BVG has held there own and the only upgrades I received from SGC were out of Beckett holders. It's good to see another company striving to achieve something other rhan a bottom line number.

Lance

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  #32  
Old 03-31-2009, 09:01 PM
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Default Is Beckett (BGS) starting to gain respect in the pre-war community?

Posted By: Kevin Saucier

I have to agree with Mark Anderson in that the plastic inserts, although not always attractive, keeps the card completely stable. I've inspected thousands of cards and have seen countless rail and gasket damage.

If you look closely at cards in PSA slabs, the damage will appear as an indentation (or worse) where the side rails end. Chances are, if you have a card that has been in a PSA slab for some time, you will definitely see this.


[linked image]


Lately, I have also been seeing more and more cards damaged by the SGC gaskets. The customized gaskets with sometimes sharp and/or fragmented sides, can actually saw away at the cards edges. It's not as prevalent as PSA but IMO will increase with time. You will probably need a loupe to see it.


Kevin



------------------------------

www.AlteredCards.com - in-depth education on advanced card doctoring techniques & detection with detailed examples

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  #33  
Old 04-01-2009, 12:45 AM
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Default Is Beckett (BGS) starting to gain respect in the pre-war community?

Posted By: quan

i've had a few (3-5) cards that i felt was damaged by the SGC insert...sometimes because the card is being squeezed into the tight space, other times the holder could be jarred/move around and the card's side is slamming against the insert...bleh.

i don't want my cards moving around. i like the strong beckett holder, and their grading isn't that bad either. people complaining about not being able to scan the beckett holder...and being scan collectors, are funny...the oversized beckett holder to slab my lcd is also funny.

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  #34  
Old 04-01-2009, 05:38 AM
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Default Is Beckett (BGS) starting to gain respect in the pre-war community?

Posted By: Al C.risafulli

I've never had a card damaged by either a PSA or SGC holder. The only ones I've ever seen are the ones Kevin has showed.

What's important to me is that my cards are accurately graded.

-Al



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Old 04-01-2009, 07:52 AM
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Default Is Beckett (BGS) starting to gain respect in the pre-war community?

Posted By: Scott Levy

A fellow collector showed me damage caused by SGC inserts to T206 cards. In a couple instances it was severe enough to affect the grade of the card (my opinion). In those instances the insert jammed into the edge of the card and cut into it causing the paper to dent and in one instance tear.

SGC has mentioned that they have since changed the inserts which caused the problems to that batch of T206 cards.

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