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Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Postwar Sportscard Forums > Postwar Baseball Cards Forum (Pre-1980)

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  #1  
Old 06-11-2016, 09:23 AM
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Default Your top 3 non HOFers

No Rose, no steroid dudes, no guys not yet eligible.

Who are your top 3 post war non HOFers? Not meant to be a thread about who SHOULD be in, as I think it's already overstuffed.

The numbers probably won't bear me out, but my picks would be Hodges, Oliva and Garvey.
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  #2  
Old 06-11-2016, 09:37 AM
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I would Agree with Gil Hodges. But I would add Tim Raines & Keith Hernandez to my list.
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  #3  
Old 06-11-2016, 09:38 AM
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Hey Pete,

Not starting a debate, but if Rose, Jackson and the "steroid era" guys are out I have no one that fits that bill.

I still think entrance requirements based on character and not accomplishment make the HOF a joke.

Just a personal opinion.

...and I agree. It's overstuffed with plenty of borderline homer fan picks already.
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  #4  
Old 06-11-2016, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinD View Post
Hey Pete,

Not starting a debate, but if Rose, Jackson and the "steroid era" guys are out I have no one that fits that bill.

I still think entrance requirements based on character and not accomplishment make the HOF a joke.

Just a personal opinion.

...and I agree. It's overstuffed with plenty of borderline homer fan picks already.
Again, and apologies if it was not clear, not asking who should be in or out. Just to identify top players who are not in.
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  #5  
Old 06-11-2016, 10:07 AM
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Hodges, Mattingly, and Edgar Martinez.
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  #6  
Old 06-11-2016, 10:11 AM
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I'll go with a Dodger theme of Garvey, Hodges, Daubert and W. Davis. I know 3 was the request, but felt I couldn't exclude 1 here.
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  #7  
Old 06-11-2016, 10:17 AM
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Albert Belle, Keith Hernandez, and Ted Simmons.
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  #8  
Old 06-11-2016, 10:21 AM
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Bo Jackson/Deion Sanders, Jim Abbott, Andy Pettite

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  #9  
Old 06-11-2016, 10:22 AM
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Mattingly, Trammel, Bagwell
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  #10  
Old 06-11-2016, 10:33 AM
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Dale Murphy, Fred McGriff, Alan Trammel


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  #11  
Old 06-11-2016, 10:57 AM
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Dale Murphy, Larry Bowa, Steve Garvey
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  #12  
Old 06-11-2016, 11:10 AM
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Gil Hodges, Don Mattingly, Dale Murphy
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Old 06-11-2016, 11:13 AM
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Jim McCormick, Bill Dahlen, and Lou Whitaker
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  #14  
Old 06-11-2016, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
No Rose, no steroid dudes, no guys not yet eligible.

Who are your top 3 post war non HOFers? Not meant to be a thread about who SHOULD be in, as I think it's already overstuffed.

The numbers probably won't bear me out, but my picks would be Hodges, Oliva and Garvey.
Larry Walker, Tim Raines, Alan Trammell. Honorable mentions to Lou Whitaker, Kenny Lofton, and Bobby Grich. Leaving out Bagwell because he is only not in yet because of the steroid whispers, I think.
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Old 06-11-2016, 11:39 AM
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Trammel, Whitaker, Tim Raines
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  #16  
Old 06-11-2016, 11:39 AM
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I'll go from the "who I like to collect" point of view. Two could be in the debate of HOFer and one has become a personal favorite of mine for not only his accomplishments on the field but also the life he has led, and is still living, off the field.
Minnie Minoso
Gil Hodges
Carl Erskine

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Old 06-11-2016, 11:54 AM
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Tony Oliva and Fred McGriff.
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  #18  
Old 06-11-2016, 12:24 PM
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Hodges,Mattingly & Thurman.
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  #19  
Old 06-11-2016, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by almostdone View Post
I'll go from the "who I like to collect" point of view. Two could be in the debate of HOFer and one has become a personal favorite of mine for not only his accomplishments on the field but also the life he has led, and is still living, off the field.
Minnie Minoso
Gil Hodges
Carl Erskine

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  #20  
Old 06-11-2016, 12:53 PM
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Bagwell
Raines
Trammell
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  #21  
Old 06-11-2016, 01:12 PM
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Reasons are more interesting than just names. Let's hear the arguments for these guys.

I'm going to exclude Bagwell and Raines, because I think it's very very likely that they get in in the next year (Raines) or two (Bagwell). Schilling and a couple other guys currently on the ballot get omitted for similar reasons.

Don't hold me to these picks as the very best, but here are a few:

Lou Whittaker. Lou's trouble is that he did everything well and nothing outstanding. He had good power (20 HR range in the 1980s), was a good fielder (+15 dWAR, although some of that he gets just for playing second base, but he also won a few gold gloves), he walked more than he struck out. He was an above-average batter all but one year of his career, even playing a defense-first position. 75 wins above replacement (basically, if you replaced him with a AAA guy you'd expect to win 75 fewer games over the course of his career) and 42 wins above average, both well above what it usually takes to get into the hall of fame.

Kevin Brown. I know that this one will be unpopular, but Brown really was a great player, it's just that no one was paying attention. From 1992 to 2001 (the heart of his career) he had a 3.00 ERA over 2166 innings. From 1996 to 1998, his best seasons, he had a 2.33 ERA over 717 innings. Good for a 172 ERA+ (Basically just ERA once you control for the parks where he played, and compared to average; higher is better.) By comparison from 1964 to 1966 Koufax had a 176 ERA+ in 881 innings. So his peak was not quite as good as Koufax's, that's nothing to be ashamed of. 68 WAR/ 40 WAA for him.

Got to run, I'll come up with a third later.
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  #22  
Old 06-11-2016, 01:16 PM
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I assume steroid suspicion has kept Bagwell out, no? Otherwise he seems pretty obvious.

My reasoning on Hodges Oliva and Garvey is that they were each pretty dominant players for a decade or close to it, although they didn't quite put together the big career numbers. I guess Mattingly fits that bill too.

Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 06-11-2016 at 01:17 PM.
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  #23  
Old 06-11-2016, 05:02 PM
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If I had to name just 3 players I would go with:

Al Oliver .303 BA, 2743 Hits in 18 seasons
Buddy Bell .279 BA, 2514 Hits in 18 seasons
Del Ennis .284 BA, 2063 Hits in 14 seasons

Others would include:
Lou Whitaker
Mark Grace
Rusty Staub


I just think it's amazing how many players have good/great stats that seem to be overlooked just because they don't play on great teams or are overshadowed by bigger stars of the era.

Last edited by Bill77; 06-11-2016 at 05:03 PM.
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  #24  
Old 06-11-2016, 05:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill77 View Post
If I had to name just 3 players I would go with:

Al Oliver .303 BA, 2743 Hits in 18 seasons
Buddy Bell .279 BA, 2514 Hits in 18 seasons
Del Ennis .284 BA, 2063 Hits in 14 seasons

Others would include:
Lou Whitaker
Mark Grace
Rusty Staub


I just think it's amazing how many players have good/great stats that seem to be overlooked just because they don't play on great teams or are overshadowed by bigger stars of the era.
There are a lot of reason why, and a lot of reasons that don't make any sense and just make one shake their head in disbelieve!
http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/...again-20141208

http://www.sportsonearth.com/article...-a-lot-of-work

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  #25  
Old 06-11-2016, 05:59 PM
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I agree with Raines and have always possessed a bias for Scoop. Is there anyone who owns 4 batting titles other than Madlock not in the hall?
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  #26  
Old 06-11-2016, 06:10 PM
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If you're asking about who I think the best players are who aren't in and don't belong, I'd say Pete Runnels, Fred Lynn and Jackie Jensen. The best who aren't in and who do belong IMPO are Gil Hodges, Dom DiMaggio and Billy Pierce.
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  #27  
Old 06-11-2016, 06:35 PM
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My top two are Steve Garvey and Dale Murphy.

There are several others who I feel should be in the HOF (and are past their BBWAA eligibility), but are too close to break down at #3, including Tommy John, Jim Kaat, Luis Tiant, Ted Simmons, Thurman Munson, Keith Hernandez, Fred McGriff, Minnie Minoso, Gil Hodges.....

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  #28  
Old 06-11-2016, 06:57 PM
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Gil Hodges, Tony Oliva and Tim Raines for me
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  #29  
Old 06-11-2016, 07:11 PM
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Mattingly
Larry Walker
Fred McGriff
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  #30  
Old 06-11-2016, 07:16 PM
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Gil Hodges
Roger Maris
Tony Oliva
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  #31  
Old 06-11-2016, 07:49 PM
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What's with the love for Gil Hodges? Here's a game, guess which line belongs to which player. The first number is plate appearances, the second is home runs, the third is OPS+ (on-base percentage plus slugging percentage, adjusted to take home park into account, and compared to league average, 100 is dead average each year, higher is better), and wins above replacement.

8657, 473, 138, 44

7137, 293, 128, 38

8102, 370, 120, 45

7809, 339, 134, 39

7914, 377, 139, 52

8230, 340, 137, 53


And here's the names in a different order: Kent Hrbeck, Boog Powell, Jack Clark, Gil Hodges, Carlos Delgado, and Norm Cash. See if you can match the line to the name.

That's a bunch of similar players right there. None of them are in the hall of fame, and none of them have much of a chance.
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  #32  
Old 06-11-2016, 09:39 PM
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Late to the game but here are mine: Ken Boyer Roger Maris & Bill Freehan
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  #33  
Old 06-11-2016, 09:49 PM
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I'm a huge Tony Oliva fan...still can't believe he isn't in.

Tony Oliva
Gil Hodges
Tommy John


Honorable Mention - Thurman Munson, Dale Murphy


All mentioned earlier, so sorry for the boring post...lol
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  #34  
Old 06-12-2016, 01:43 AM
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Jim Kaat, Dale Murphy, Tim Raines

I really don't see why Kaat has been kept out, from 61-75 the only 2 arms with more WAR were Gibson and Gaylord Perry.

Murph, cuz he was my idol growing up a Braves fan. and Rock Raines because in any other era he would have been the best leadoff man, he just happened to play at the same time as Rickey, his numbers scream HOF to me tho.
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  #35  
Old 06-12-2016, 07:27 AM
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Raines for Nick's reasons.

Munson because he was the core of the great Bronx Zoo teams and the best or second best catcher in the league for nearly a decade. ROY MVP.

Dick Allen. He may have been a dick but he was a genuine talent.
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  #36  
Old 06-12-2016, 07:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nat View Post
What's with the love for Gil Hodges? Here's a game, guess which line belongs to which player. The first number is plate appearances, the second is home runs, the third is OPS+ (on-base percentage plus slugging percentage, adjusted to take home park into account, and compared to league average, 100 is dead average each year, higher is better), and wins above replacement.

8657, 473, 138, 44

7137, 293, 128, 38

8102, 370, 120, 45

7809, 339, 134, 39

7914, 377, 139, 52

8230, 340, 137, 53


And here's the names in a different order: Kent Hrbeck, Boog Powell, Jack Clark, Gil Hodges, Carlos Delgado, and Norm Cash. See if you can match the line to the name.

That's a bunch of similar players right there. None of them are in the hall of fame, and none of them have much of a chance.
Hodges did have 7 straight 100 RBI seasons and all star appearances.
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Old 06-12-2016, 07:58 AM
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As an aside Rocky Colavito had 350+ HR at age 32, then vanished.
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  #38  
Old 06-12-2016, 08:11 AM
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Legends from when I was a kid - Thurman Munson, JR Richard, Steve Garvey, Dave Parker.

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  #39  
Old 06-12-2016, 08:27 AM
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Would love to get Bill Gregory's thoughts on Larry Walker if he had a minute to spare. I always thought he was unfairly dinged for the Coors effect and his injury issues. I don't think there were too many more complete players than Walker. I am sure there are some good analyses online but always enjoy seeing our resident expert opine.
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Old 06-12-2016, 08:41 AM
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Garvey
Madlock
Raines
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  #41  
Old 06-12-2016, 08:57 AM
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It would be fun to create a poll of all players named here. I'd propose 85%+ as the entry criteria (and suspect nobody would make it).

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  #42  
Old 06-12-2016, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nat View Post
What's with the love for Gil Hodges? Here's a game, guess which line belongs to which player. The first number is plate appearances, the second is home runs, the third is OPS+ (on-base percentage plus slugging percentage, adjusted to take home park into account, and compared to league average, 100 is dead average each year, higher is better), and wins above replacement.

8657, 473, 138, 44

7137, 293, 128, 38

8102, 370, 120, 45

7809, 339, 134, 39

7914, 377, 139, 52

8230, 340, 137, 53


And here's the names in a different order: Kent Hrbeck, Boog Powell, Jack Clark, Gil Hodges, Carlos Delgado, and Norm Cash. See if you can match the line to the name.

That's a bunch of similar players right there. None of them are in the hall of fame, and none of them have much of a chance.
As has been mentioned, he drove in 100+ runs 7 seasons. He was also a key member of a team that won 7 pennants and 2 championships. 8 time all star, recieved mvp votes 9 times and won 3 gold gloves (would have won a lot more if the award existed his whole career). Hodges was also very good in team wins (and bad in losses) , hitting .309 with a .974 ops. So despite his career numbers, he was very important to team success on a team that won a lot and is remembered for being good in those wins. He was also good defensively although some don't seem to value defense at all. That is why although he may not make the hof, he stands out on that list of first basemen.
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  #43  
Old 06-12-2016, 12:41 PM
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Nick Barnes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rats60 View Post
As has been mentioned, he drove in 100+ runs 7 seasons. He was also a key member of a team that won 7 pennants and 2 championships. 8 time all star, recieved mvp votes 9 times and won 3 gold gloves (would have won a lot more if the award existed his whole career). Hodges was also very good in team wins (and bad in losses) , hitting .309 with a .974 ops. So despite his career numbers, he was very important to team success on a team that won a lot and is remembered for being good in those wins. He was also good defensively although some don't seem to value defense at all. That is why although he may not make the hof, he stands out on that list of first basemen.
RBI's is not a very good number to use for player's individual performance because it s driven by the quality of the player's who bat in front of him. 3 guys can have equal offensive production but vary greatly in RBI because one guy played for a good offensive team and the others didn't.

not trying to start a SABER war, but I think RBI is like pitcher wins, it's just too contingent on the performance of other people to be treated as if it is the product of the individual.
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Last edited by bravos4evr; 06-12-2016 at 12:41 PM.
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  #44  
Old 06-12-2016, 04:27 PM
Johnny630 Johnny630 is offline
Johnny MaZilli
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Mine would be
1.Gil Hodges
2. Ken Boyer
3. Minnie Minoso
3. Tony Oliva
4. Dick Allen

Favorite Signature would be Gil Hodges on a 52 Topps ! Wow

Last edited by Johnny630; 06-12-2016 at 04:34 PM.
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  #45  
Old 06-12-2016, 05:23 PM
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Bill Madlock, .305 Career BA, 4 Batting Titles
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  #46  
Old 06-12-2016, 09:56 PM
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Dan Be$$e++e
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Minoso, Oliva, murphy, Garvey, Dwight Evans. That's more than 3, but I couldn't decide who to drop
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  #47  
Old 06-13-2016, 11:55 AM
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rats60 rats60 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bravos4evr View Post
RBI's is not a very good number to use for player's individual performance because it s driven by the quality of the player's who bat in front of him. 3 guys can have equal offensive production but vary greatly in RBI because one guy played for a good offensive team and the others didn't.

not trying to start a SABER war, but I think RBI is like pitcher wins, it's just too contingent on the performance of other people to be treated as if it is the product of the individual.
Well will just have to agree to disagree then because I strongly disagree with your whole post. The player has to drive in those runs. I would rather have a player like Hodges than some guy who walks a lot and has an inflated obp, but doesn't produce. I wouldn't penalize a guy who played on a bad team and didn't have opportunities to drive in runs. However, you have to give Hodges credit for taking advantage of his opportunities and driving in those runs that led to wins.

As far as pitching wins, after era it is the most important stat. After all the idea of the game is the score the most runs/allow the fewest runs and win games. Have a good fip, whip, bb/k ratio, etc. are all fine, but in the end may be meaningless to the result of this game. Some people act like this game is played in a vacuum. They ignore that valid strategies of the game harm those prized sabr stats but produce wins. Things like pitching around hitters in situations or pitching to the score of the game. Also, to complain that a pitcher's bullpen can't hold a lead when the pitcher is partially at fault because he wasn't able to finish the game is silly in my opinion.
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  #48  
Old 06-13-2016, 12:14 PM
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Jason A. Schwartz
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The challenge is what value to ascribe to the advanced stats vs conventional ones. Do they turn our understanding of the game upside-down, just nudge it a little, or merely add noise?

I like the advanced stats for helping contextualize things like RBI totals in 1930 or hitters at Coors vs Astrodome. I also like some of the "new" measures like WAR for attempting imperfectly to quantify the total value of a player.

However, I still feel like a pitcher who went 22-10 had a better year than a guy who went 9-13, regardless of advanced metrics. I suspect the two pitchers in question would agree. I'm not saying the former is the better pitcher in vacuo...just that he had a better year.

By extension, I would say Gil Hodges and Steve Garvey also had better careers than nearly everyone regarded as equal or slightly better by the advanced measures.

To the extent the HOF is generally associated with great careers, I would look at Wins and RBIs as much more important than anything you need a calculator for.

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  #49  
Old 06-13-2016, 12:28 PM
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Garvey
Parker
Simmons
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  #50  
Old 06-13-2016, 03:26 PM
gnpaden gnpaden is offline
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Fred McGriff, Kenny Lofton and Tony Oliva.
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Building 50's sets and purchase all kinds of vintage.

1955:206/206 complete
1956: 298/341 complete
1957: just starting
1958:515/534 complete; 1 base, 2 numerical checklists and 16 yellow letters

1959: 513/572
1959 PSA 6: 40/572
1965: 352/598
1966: 447/598
1967: /609
1968: /598
1969: 562/664
1970: 635/720
1971: 717/752
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