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  #1  
Old 03-21-2008, 06:23 AM
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Default How Would You Change The Hobby

Posted By: bruce Dorskind



The underlying theme of the 2008 Election is change.

What should America look like?

How can we address the challenges we face,
and who is best qualified to bring the country
together and serve as the catalyst for change?

Whilst the issues facing the vintage sports memorabilia hobby
pale in comparison to the issues we face as a country, we think
it would be an important and provocative discussion topic
to look at the question:

If you were charged with the responsibility to improve the
state of our hobby, what action steps would you take?

We, whilst having no interest in the aforementioned position, do
have a number of suggestions


(1) Create an on-line well-funded resource which would enable anyone
to search and look at every card from 1870 through 1959

(2) Include in each section a bit of background about the set
and notes on which cards are rare

(3) Include a detailed profile of all the companies that produced
cards

(4) Create a true hobby Hall of Fame with a description of the Top 100
collectors of all time, what they collected and how they contributed
to the hobby

(5) Create an outline hobby bibliography which details relevant articles
from all the hobby magazines dating back to 1925

(6) Create universal grading standards

(7) Develop the concept of a virtual hobby show- much like virtual
job fairs where items could be bought and sold interactively.

(8) Create an official hobby governing board

(9) Market the hobby to attract serious collectors from other fields
and to, hopefully help bring a few hidden collections from the attic


Those are our thoughts. What are yours?

Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want List
(212) 734-7362

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  #2  
Old 03-21-2008, 06:47 AM
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Default How Would You Change The Hobby

Posted By: dan mckee

Do away with the 3rd party grading as it is currently. Have new 3rd party grading with labels of just AU for Authentic and Unaltered or AA for Authentic but Altered. Then people will be back to buying the cards instead of the labels. Dan.

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  #3  
Old 03-21-2008, 07:00 AM
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Default How Would You Change The Hobby

Posted By: Paul S

(4) Create a true hobby Hall of Fame with a description of the Top 100 collectors of all time, what they collected and how they contributed to the hobby

Would be nice to have it centralized but I don't know what a "true" HOF is.

(6) Create universal grading standards

I'm with Dan on this one.

(8) Create an official hobby governing board

Too political.

(9) Market the hobby to attract serious collectors from other fields and to, hopefully help bring a few hidden collections from the attic.

I think the former would drive prices up past the point where it would way overshadow the few hidden attic collections.

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  #4  
Old 03-21-2008, 07:17 AM
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Default How Would You Change The Hobby

Posted By: Phil Garry

Some good ideas...........I would also eliminate the ability to list reprints on e-bay, whether stated as such or not, as this has now become the biggest time waster for searches that you can think of. If necessary, a new category should be created for reprint cards only and these may only be listed there. Multiple time offenders should be kicked off e-bay even if it means less income from listing fees as the overall card market will benefit in the long run as opposed to people getting frustrated with the current e-bay searches amd seeking another venue for their purchases. I believe this is important because most collectors will agree that e-bay is by far the leader in daily vintage card activity.

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  #5  
Old 03-21-2008, 07:50 AM
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Posted By: Anonymous

Go back in time and prevent the creation of 3rd party grading. It has ruined the hobby and there is no going back.

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  #6  
Old 03-21-2008, 08:09 AM
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Default How Would You Change The Hobby

Posted By: Zinn

But seriously:

(1) Create an on-line well-funded resource which would enable anyone
to search and look at every card from 1870 through 1959

I would think that you might have the resources to facilitate this. Good idea.

(4) Create a true hobby Hall of Fame with a description of the Top 100
collectors of all time, what they collected and how they contributed
to the hobby

This is interesting. Might be a project that Old Cardboard may be willing to undertake centralizing where nominations may be made.

(8) Create an official hobby governing board

Laudable, but not realistic.

(9) Market the hobby to attract serious collectors from other fields
and to, hopefully help bring a few hidden collections from the attic

If they are not in the hobby now they never will be. JMO

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  #7  
Old 03-21-2008, 08:22 AM
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Default How Would You Change The Hobby

Posted By: Steve



The information is available already, just need to reel it in to one central authority ie; LOC.GOV has many beautiful hi-res scans of authentic examples.

The grading companies (all of them) would need to set national standards. Probably don't need to start from scratch. I've heard the coin hobby would provide a framework to get going.



Getting others involved is the key to sustaining this expensive hobby. With all the scams in the news, people fear being duped and they should. I watch tons of money being wasted every time I log in to ebaY. Oh, just a small fraction are shills as I've received many replies from buyers of Cobbs, Ruths, Gehrigs etc. seeking advice on how to get their money back. Sadly, a lot of these buyers will not be returning to vintage cards.

When I show 'civilians' a prewar card some ask, "Are you SURE it's real?". Of course I have to explain Grading and that good detection is always needed -even when purchasing slabbed cards. I've shown some comparison scans and surprisingly, they enjoy 'solving the puzzle'.

I think the real deterrant to picking cards as a hobby; Supply direction on detecting counterfeits/reprints. Stressing the notion that, yes gullible thousands are duped each year, but many more are discovering rare and valuable treasures through knowledge and patience.

Who do we elect to preside the Third Continental Congress

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  #8  
Old 03-21-2008, 08:24 AM
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Default How Would You Change The Hobby

Posted By: barrysloate

Fascinating subject, difficult to answer.

I agree with everyone so far that there needs to be some type of universal grading standards. The fact that the big three have different criteria for assigning grades, and that many submitters play the "grading game" crossing over and resubmitting cards again and again until they get the grade they want, has turned the whole system into a farce. I would love to see some changes made there.

Also wish there was some governing body that could weed out some of the hobby scoundrels who fly under the radar on ebay and elsewhere, but that is pretty tough to do.

And the most difficult change to make, and one that we will never see is...turn back the hobby clock to the 1980's.

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  #9  
Old 03-21-2008, 08:59 AM
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Default How Would You Change The Hobby

Posted By: Bobby Binder

Bruce,

Most of the tools you are referring to already exist at VCP. We cover all the years, we have set descriptions (or would like to have members knowledgeable on a set to give us the write up and we will post it), values, etc. All members can post comments on every individual cards that all members can read to see which are the key cards in every set.

Although we are not well funded the membership chips in by being paying members to get the information.

As far as posting articles that should not be a very difficult thing to add to the site.

Bobby

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  #10  
Old 03-21-2008, 08:59 AM
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Default How Would You Change The Hobby

Posted By: Shawn Chambers

I do agree with Bruce(s) that a viewable database is a great idea. Given the incredible amount of material available on the web, it is frustating to me that I can't look at a nice set of T210s anywhere! There are so many of the cards in the various series that I've never seen. I remember the post about the Kelly Mascot card and finally a grainy image was posted. I'm sure many collectors would be on board to send scans to some central repository. Wish I were more computer literate!

Enjoy the weekend,

Shawn

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  #11  
Old 03-21-2008, 10:03 AM
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Default How Would You Change The Hobby

Posted By: John Harrell

The worst thing that's happened to the hobby is the establishment of grades for slabbed cards. The only useful service that slabbing services can provide is authentication. Leave the decision about the grade of a card to the buyer.

John

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  #12  
Old 03-21-2008, 10:05 AM
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Posted By: Alan

One thing that is lacking is some sort of central "Vintage card reference/identication guide" online database that would have set descriptions, images, prices, variations, descriptions, etc,... of everything about vintage cards on earth. It currently does exist, but it's scattered in a million different places on the web & in publications. It would be nice to have it all finally in one central place.

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  #13  
Old 03-21-2008, 10:48 AM
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Posted By: Larry

Why do people who don't like graded cards worry about the fact that cards are graded?

I buy both raw and graded. Because I don't get to many (any) shows, I buy most of my cards from the internet, particularly ebay. The raw cards I have purchased are purchased here through B/S/T. Because I use ebay, it seems to me that the only way for me to be comfortable with the purchase is by relying on the seller, a scan and the grade.

Now, I understand all of the reasons why someone wouldn't want to purchase a graded card for their collection. What I don't understand is why would you care what I buy?

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  #14  
Old 03-21-2008, 11:26 AM
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Posted By: boxingcardman

for someone to get in there and image the entire Burdick collection and get it either onto a web site or CD for everyone to see and enjoy.

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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  #15  
Old 03-21-2008, 12:06 PM
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Default How Would You Change The Hobby

Posted By: Andrew

Lot's of smack about the ills of card grading. Although there are certainly some cons, I have more faith in the current system than John Doe Dealer's interpretation of EXMT. This hobby/business is rife with bad ethics, so the extra layer of a third party gives me better peace of mind.



"Take your life in your own hands and what happens? A terrible thing: no one to blame." -- Erica Jong

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  #16  
Old 03-21-2008, 12:09 PM
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Posted By: Anthony S.

I would ban attics and grandfathers for all sellers on Ebay.

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  #17  
Old 03-21-2008, 12:16 PM
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Posted By: barrysloate

Anthony- that's a good one. But sellers would find a way to bypass it:

This collection belonged to my uncle and I found it while cleaning the basement.

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  #18  
Old 03-21-2008, 02:19 PM
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Posted By: JimCrandell

Great Post Bruce.

1)Have grading companies boost their capabilities. Grading companies saved the hobby --now they need to continue to strengthen their own capabilities to fight card alteration

2)Governing body to set standards and help police dealers

3)Have major dealers be more self-policing and do more to weed out the alterers.

4)Combine PSA Hall of Fame with other great collections(graded and ungraded) to get a more comprehensive Hall of Fame(governing body could vote on members. However, certain collectors may not want the publicity.

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Old 03-21-2008, 03:08 PM
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Posted By: Dave Hornish

Not sure if everyone remembers but there were various efforts in the past to organize/police the hobby and nothing ever came of it. Don't see it working now.

As for a database of old articles, that is something I partially have together (back to 1981), although nothing is scanned; it's all tearsheets and hard copies of magazines and (some) catalogs). If two separate baseball bibliographies can be compiled (Grobani and Smith) which are far more intricate than a hobby database, then it is a doable task. I always wished there was a vintage card version of SABR, this would be a great project for an organization like that.

Less slabbing, more trading would be nice but not really feasible on a large scale.

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  #20  
Old 03-21-2008, 03:36 PM
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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- well thought out ideas.

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  #21  
Old 03-21-2008, 04:08 PM
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Posted By: steve

Before my desired hobby changes, let me say:

1. Without ebay, the hobby would be much more difficult. I remember before ebay, when you wanted to sell, it seemed like how much were you going to loose, dealers usually paid 50-60 percent for nice stuff, you got taken to the cleaners. Big props to ebay !!!

2. Without PSA/SGC, how the *#@!&*%!! could you guarantee (98+%) the card had never been tampered with. I remember before PSA existed getting a 1966 Aaron NM-MT only to submit it years later finding out it was trimmed - the horror! And what about the real spendy stuff ? How many folks in the past got burned? Big props to reputable grading companies !!!

Changes:

1. Come on PSA, please change SMR to reflect actual market conditions, especially old vintage cards, simple and do-able request.

2. Have the "National" come to Portland, OR.

steve

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  #22  
Old 03-21-2008, 04:17 PM
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Posted By: Kenneth A. Cohen

As long as we're stuck with grading, have the grading companies develop and provide tamper-proof holders. Lacking such, the primary benefit grading offers, assured authenticity, is diminished.

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  #23  
Old 03-21-2008, 05:51 PM
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Posted By: JimCrandell

Thanks Barry.

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Old 03-21-2008, 06:27 PM
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Posted By: fkw

I like Dan's idea.

Do away with number grades...

Auth unaltered ..... if the card has honest wear

Auth altered "trimmed" if trimmed
Auth altered "recolored"
Auth altered "restored"
etc.

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  #25  
Old 03-21-2008, 06:37 PM
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Posted By: cmoking

eliminate the people that tell me what I should or how I should collect

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  #26  
Old 03-21-2008, 06:39 PM
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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

If we can do what King suggests, I think we eliminate 90% of the problems in the hobby.

-Al

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  #27  
Old 03-21-2008, 06:47 PM
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Posted By: Jim Rivera

I agree with Dan and FKW-do away with the number on slabs-just use the holder to protect the card and tell if it is original or altered plus the year and company of the card.

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  #28  
Old 03-21-2008, 07:45 PM
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Posted By: Scott Mt Joy

I know many cant stand it but I would not have returned back to card collecting if not for card grading. For all its down sides when I buy a card on the web I know 99% of the time what I am getting, that is a value I am willing to pay for. That and I have to give props to PSA for the registry, great idea.

As far as changes in the hobby, I think having a database that could be referenced would be awesome. I think VCP does a good job but many rare cards will never make it into holders or will never be sold in public and therefore will never make it on their site. The idea of getting the Burdick Collection online would be awesome.

I dont think cards needs a lot of change, where I would like to see change would be the sports auto business, that is a complete mess and what a shame.

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  #29  
Old 03-21-2008, 07:59 PM
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Posted By: Tim

Many people have replied to this thread that they would like to see an end to number grades on slabs. My question is this, if you buy the card and not the slab as many of you like to say, then what difference does it make to you what number is printed on the slab? Does it have wat you see as an adverse effect on the market?

I know for me personally being new to this era of cards, the grading systems make me feel more comfortable with what I'm purchasing. I'm still trying to learn as much as I can about how the cards are graded and to look at the card and not just the grade. But without the current system I would probably never be comfortable enough with my own knowlege to invest in these types of cards.

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Old 03-21-2008, 08:17 PM
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Posted By: JimCrandell

You guys that want to do away with numbered grades should realize that the whole growthy of the hobby came from grading and the advent of the PSA Set Registry. People on balance love the grades and among other things it is a good indicator as to who has the best sets....which is why a huge number of collectors collect.

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  #31  
Old 03-21-2008, 08:27 PM
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Posted By: Andrew

Ego and envy are usually at the root of such things. Paying a third party for their opinion after a lifetime of collecting and not being able to afford the huge premiums created by grading are two underlying reasons why slabs are so despised.

"Take your life in your own hands and what happens? A terrible thing: no one to blame." -- Erica Jong

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Old 03-21-2008, 08:46 PM
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Posted By: James Feagin

I agree with Al and King. I collect what I like (even if it includes...*gasp* shiny new cards) and I make no apologies for it. I also find grading to be a very necessary part of the hobby. Reputable companies like SGC helped save the hobby from shady dealers. Instead of fighting advances, we should be embracing them (of course when done correctly).

James

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  #33  
Old 03-21-2008, 11:57 PM
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Posted By: Ken Wirt

Some people may collect so that they can be compared with others. Hmmmm?

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  #34  
Old 03-22-2008, 12:16 AM
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Posted By: Cobby33

The hobby grew for 100 years before the mass marketing of grading.

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Old 03-22-2008, 04:48 AM
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Posted By: barrysloate

I don't think there is anything wrong with the concept of third party grading and I think it's a good thing.

But it still needs a lot of fine tuning, and a more objective approach. The graders should be so consistent and accurate that collectors should have virtually no reason to resubmit or cross over. It's the "grading game" that makes the system look like a leaky ship.

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  #36  
Old 03-22-2008, 07:13 AM
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Posted By: Jim Dale

Well the thing that ruined the "hobby" to me was the production of super rare one of a kind impossible to "collect" modern inserts \ subsets. I stopped collecting when building a complete collection became impossible.

Limit the number of products, limit the number of inserts, and by all means make it illegal to cut up memorabilia and insert little pieces of it on a few thousand cards.

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  #37  
Old 03-22-2008, 07:31 AM
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Posted By: JimCrandell

"two underlying reasons why slabs are so despised"

Only by a few on Net 54--virtually everyone I know in the hobby loves graded cards and what it has brought to the hobby. While more needs to be done by the grading comnpanies, the hobby was in shambles before PSA came and popularized card grading. Top quality items in auctions ungraded were receiving no bids. Grading gave collectors the confidence to step up and buy graded cards

"Some people collect so that they can be compared with others, hmmm"

Well there are over 33,000 sets on the PSA Set Registry and certainly the whole competitive aspect of the registry is the primary reason for the huge growth since inception.

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Old 03-22-2008, 08:47 AM
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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I like what Jim Dale said. The old days in the 70s of just one Topps set coming out was great -- so what if it was a monopoly?

And while graded cards certainly has had its share of evils, favoritism and corruption, the fact is most of us would agree that it provides a great protection against those that would sell us trimmed cards. Granted, many dealers still trim and/or alter cards and get them into slabs or higher numbered slabs (including some posters on this board), but I can only imagine how bad it was before slabs came about.

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Old 03-22-2008, 08:48 AM
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Posted By: CoreyRS.hanus

"Well there are over 33,000 sets on the PSA Set Registry and certainly the whole competitive aspect of the registry is the primary reason for the huge growth since inception."

Two questions,

First huge growth of what?

Second, how many different people who are primarily collectors (as opposed to investor/speculators) have sets on the registry and what percentage of the collecting (not collecting + investing/speculating) base do you think they comprise?

IMO there are many collectors, both old-timers, newbies and those in-between, who enjoy collecting not for its competitive aspects and who in a heartbeat would prefer to see the registry concept disapppear forever. Many of us also feel that the registry concept was not introduced by PSA out of some altruistic desire to improve the hobby but rather as a cold money grab to induce people to submit their cards to them, much as we regard their introduction of half-grades and their backroom deals not to look for alterations or downgrades to be guided by the same motivation. Yes, I respect those who feel otherwise, but I don't think those who feel as I do should be looked upon with scorn and regarded as irrational in our beliefs.

I'd also be fascinated by a study which broke card owners into two categories -- (1) primarily collector and (2) primarily investor/speculator -- and compare the two groups as to how they feel about the registry. My guess is that the investor/speculator group would be much more supportive of the registry than the collector group.

I feel the only growths the registry concept fueled was the growth of prices, especially for condition rarities, and as well as the growth of investors/speculators into the hobby. I don't feel it had any material impact on the growth of collectors.

As to those speculators, their signature trademark is to look after their own financial interests, regardless if it makes shambles of the market they entered. They have no interest in cards for what they represent and would just as soon invest in pork bellies if they felt they could make a better return.

So you'll forgive me if I have a different view of the benefits of promoting the growth of such people into this hobby.

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Old 03-22-2008, 11:07 AM
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Posted By: JimCrandell

Corey,

I know at least 100-200 people on the registry--maybe more and I do not know one who is an investor/speculator. To my knowledge eyeryone on the registry is a collector.

I also know a lot of people who never would have gotten into collecting if it wasn't for PSA and the advent of card grading. It gave collectors confidence that they could buy cards and know they had not been altered. Without that, you would have never seen the growth the hobby has experienced--in fact, it probably would have declined.

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Old 03-22-2008, 11:16 AM
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Posted By: JimCrandell

"I can only imagine how bad it was before slbs came about"

Jeff,

Exactly. I was there and the hobby was slipping to the point that it would shut down. I think the final non-graded card auction that Superior Sportcard had, a major part of their auction had no bids(and they started their nrmt-mt non-graded cards at half Beckett). I got a call from Greg Busseneau the next morning offering me a huge number of cards at the opening bid. Alan Rosen had all kinds of mint ungraded material and the stuff would go for the minimum or maybe one bid over.

You're right--many still sttempt to alter cards to get them into higher numbered holders but there can be absolutely no question that with graded cards we are in a vastly superior position to where we were 15-20 years ago.

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Old 03-22-2008, 11:38 AM
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Posted By: CoreyRS.hanus

Jim,

I think you and I might define "collector" a bit differently.

In regard to the importance grading companies have had on ridding the hobby of altered cards and giving people the confidence their acquisitions have not been altered, on that one I agree with you. THAT is a critical role the grading companies play, and the hobby is much better off for it. Yes, as we've discussed many times on this board, there is still much that can be done to improve their ability to detect alterations. But all in all the hobby is much cleaner as regards the issue of card alterations since grading companies came into the picture.

Numerical grades and the set registry, though, are something entirely different. They have nothing to do with the alterations issue and on this one I have a much different perspective of much good they have done for the hobby.

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Old 03-22-2008, 11:55 AM
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Default How Would You Change The Hobby

Posted By: JimCrandell

Corey,

I respectfully disagree about "collectors" on the registry. There people are every bit as enthusiastic about their cards as the guys on this board are.

Also, I would not make the claim that numerical grades have helped the hobby--only that they have made it more fun for the large number of collectors who like to collect high grade cards and those that like to compete.

Jim

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Old 03-22-2008, 11:57 AM
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Default How Would You Change The Hobby

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

When you consider how much money some PSA Registry people spend on cards, how can they be considered anything other than 'collectors?' Otherwise, they'd have to be insane.

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Old 03-22-2008, 01:04 PM
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Default How Would You Change The Hobby

Posted By: Cobby33

"And while graded cards certainly has had its share of evils, favoritism and corruption, the fact is most of us would agree that it provides a great protection against those that would sell us trimmed cards."

Ergo- "Auth" or "Altered" grades. Numerical grades, as pointed out, are way too subjective, unregulated and the product of favoritism.

The grades I just got back on a bunch of 75 Topps Minis, which I pulled from an unopened box, is proof positive of this. Half of them had "ST" qualifiers and only one of them was a top or bottom card. Most of the others had ridiculously-low grades. Incredible.

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Old 03-22-2008, 01:22 PM
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Default How Would You Change The Hobby

Posted By: barrysloate

I feel both Corey, Jim and others make some good points even though they are looking at the registry from opposite sides.

My feeling is the skyrocketing prices for high grade cards, fueled mostly by the registry crowd, is not automatically good for the hobby. Sometimes a less frenetic market is a better thing. It has changed what was once a more relaxed hobby into one that is really rather cutthroat and too competitive for some tastes..

Jim- I'm sure the people you know on the registry are passionate about their collections, I won't even dispute that. But I would bet the attrition rate among those collectors is pretty high too. They are often the first to burn out when they start to get bored with baseball cards.

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Old 03-22-2008, 01:31 PM
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Default How Would You Change The Hobby

Posted By: Joe D.

"When you consider how much money some PSA Registry people spend on cards, how can they be considered anything other than 'collectors?' Otherwise, they'd have to be insane."


'collectors' and 'insane'


you make it seem as though those two terms are mutually exclusive.

going by my own spending habits - I would say they go hand-in-hand.



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Old 03-22-2008, 01:34 PM
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Default How Would You Change The Hobby

Posted By: CoreyRS.hanus

Jeff,

With all due respect, I think it takes more than the spending of money to characterize a person as a collector. IMO what motivates a person is the key determinant of how to characterize him/her. The investing/speculating world is rife with examples of people who buy heavily in a particular market not because of any intrinsic interest in what they're buying but rather for how much it will appreciate.

I'm not saying a person cannot be a collector and participate on the registry. But I do take issue with the view that the creation of the registry had anything to do with the growth of the number of collectors. And I do not regard a person who would not be in this hobby but for the registry as a collector.

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Old 03-22-2008, 01:59 PM
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Default How Would You Change The Hobby

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

"And I do not regard a person who would not be in this hobby but for the registry as a collector."

--Agreed.

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Old 03-22-2008, 03:46 PM
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Default How Would You Change The Hobby

Posted By: LetsGoBucs

Changes to the hobby:

1. Bring back the local card shows.

2. Eliminate all the artificially scarce BRAND NEW crap that gets produced every year.

3. Outlaw cards with pieces of uniforms, cut autographs, bats, etc.


Purely theoretical changes:

1. Have some sort of holder technology so that all the grading companies know when a card has been taken out of their holder, and force them to then get the #/graded of a particular card to be accurate.

2. Eliminate favoritism in grading cards....a card is a card irregardless of whether the person sending it in sends in 5000 cards a year or 5 cards a year.

3. Eliminate reprints from EBAY. I hardly ever go through the pre-1930 category anymore as its just a waste of time.

4. Law requiring all reprints to say "reprint" somewhere on the card that is readable to the human eye.

5. Return to the day when shipping and handling charges were to cover the costs associated with shipping - not a seperate profit center of its own.

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