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  #6651  
Old 09-17-2022, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Hankphenom View Post
Are there other Yankees with this pennant? If not, why in the world Rizzuto? As good as he was, he was never more than the fourth or fifth best player on his teams. What's the year on this, do you think?
There are not. At least that I’ve seen in almost 40 years. My guess would be 1950 or 51 following his MVP season. I’m glad to see there is another one out there. I thought it might have been a one off or few but fed as discussed. It appears to match the Harry Stevens style of many Yankees pennants from that era so maybe a few were made for a banquet or something. Either way, great pick up.
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  #6652  
Old 09-17-2022, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo View Post
There are not. At least that I’ve seen in almost 40 years. My guess would be 1950 or 51 following his MVP season. I’m glad to see there is another one out there. I thought it might have been a one off or few but fed as discussed. It appears to match the Harry Stevens style of many Yankees pennants from that era so maybe a few were made for a banquet or something. Either way, great pick up.

That was my thinking as well. I wondered if it was from an event like a banquet. I'd not seen another and when it came up for auction I remembered American Pickers...."the time to buy it is when you see it." :-)

Any ideas about which company produced it?
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  #6653  
Old 09-17-2022, 06:13 PM
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That was my thinking as well. I wondered if it was from an event like a banquet. I'd not seen another and when it came up for auction I remembered American Pickers...."the time to buy it is when you see it." :-)

Any ideas about which company produced it?
Personally I think it’s NY area mystery company. Here are two that I believe are from the same company, note the same gold streamer-like design on the ‘55 pennant. One theory is Trench - I think Domer might lean that way? - but the construction seems very different to me than known Trenches of the period. The graphics and artwork is also a vastly different style.
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Last edited by thetahat; 09-17-2022 at 06:26 PM.
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  #6654  
Old 09-17-2022, 06:19 PM
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[QUOTE=Hankphenom;2264794]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo View Post
https://www.ebay.com/itm/14466952974...0AAOSw7AJi69ig[/QUOTE
Actually, this is no repro and I shouldn't have referred to it as such. It's an out-and-out fake, intended to deceive, with cracked paint, wool, and all. Best fake pennant I've ever seen, wrong spine notwithstanding, and if whoever made this gets more active, it could prove disruptive and lead to the slabbing and grading of pennants.
This pennant was originally sold by someone who had a similar fugazi Dallas Texans pennant, which I bought and returned. Same quality fake. The letters and graphic were cut out and glued - poorly - not even to the edges so you can see underneath. There is absolutely, positively no way that even a non-collector could hold this and conclude that it is anything but a homemade job.
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  #6655  
Old 09-17-2022, 06:39 PM
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[QUOTE=thetahat;2264843]
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Originally Posted by Hankphenom View Post
This pennant was originally sold by someone who had a similar fugazi Dallas Texans pennant, which I bought and returned. Same quality fake. The letters and graphic were cut out and glued - poorly - not even to the edges so you can see underneath. There is absolutely, positively no way that even a non-collector could hold this and conclude that it is anything but a homemade job.
Good to hear, as the picture made it look good. All the more reason Jonsstats has no business acting as if it might be real.
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  #6656  
Old 09-17-2022, 07:19 PM
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Personally I think it’s NY area mystery company. Here are two that I believe are from the same company, note the same gold streamer-like design on the ‘55 pennant. One theory is Trench - I think Domer might lean that way? - but the construction seems very different to me than known Trenches of the period. The graphics and artwork is also a vastly different style.
No doubt the Rizzuto is the same maker as the '55 World Series Pennant. I have seen the more common "Yankees" (not Rizzuto) version sporting the same exact fringe instead of tassels. I used to have one but stupidly let it go.
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  #6657  
Old 09-17-2022, 11:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thetahat View Post
Personally I think it’s NY area mystery company. Here are two that I believe are from the same company, note the same gold streamer-like design on the ‘55 pennant. One theory is Trench - I think Domer might lean that way? - but the construction seems very different to me than known Trenches of the period. The graphics and artwork is also a vastly different style.
Yup, my opinion: the Rizzuto and the '55 WS pennant are by the same maker; and, I'm confident that maker is Trench

Mystery maker wasn't known for using tassels. Nor were they known for multi-colored graphics ... or team-specific artwork.
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  #6658  
Old 09-19-2022, 02:29 PM
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Congrats on the trade Rob. What's the pennant?
I was able to trade the first one for the one with the "waterfall" coming out of RF. Both are very rare. Thanks, bocca!
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  #6659  
Old 09-19-2022, 02:30 PM
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Marc also sold me this one at a good price. I have the same pennant but with no added color to the white graphics.
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  #6660  
Old 09-19-2022, 05:33 PM
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I was able to trade the first one for the one with the "waterfall" coming out of RF. Both are very rare. Thanks, bocca!
I’m seeing other differences in the stadium graphic. Like what appear to be bushes behind the first base stands area, at the base of the light tower. Could the “waterfall” just be an opening in uncompleted bleachers? I wonder if old Candlestick pics could help determine if one is older than the other.

Last edited by thetahat; 09-19-2022 at 05:34 PM.
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  #6661  
Old 09-19-2022, 05:41 PM
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Going to guess the one with the press box/scoreboard up on stilts is the older one.
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  #6662  
Old 09-19-2022, 07:58 PM
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Going to guess the one with the press box/scoreboard up on stilts is the older one.
I would agree.
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  #6663  
Old 09-19-2022, 07:59 PM
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It worked out well that Ooribay and I were both able to fill in missing pieces in our collections.
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  #6664  
Old 09-20-2022, 08:42 AM
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Default Reds pennant info request

Looking for a little more knowledge on this puppy. My pennant sense tells me this style is part of a series made for some or all teams and probably in the 40's but wanted to check with the experts
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  #6665  
Old 09-20-2022, 09:50 AM
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Yup. I have seen that exact motif used for the White Sox, Yankees and perhaps a few others. Definitely 1940s, and rare to find a Reds version. Great score!
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  #6666  
Old 09-20-2022, 10:23 AM
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Thanks, Mark. I suspected that might be the case...
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  #6667  
Old 09-20-2022, 01:25 PM
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Never seen a Washington Senators/Nationals version and don't think they made one.
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  #6668  
Old 09-20-2022, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by perezfan View Post
Yup. I have seen that exact motif used for the White Sox, Yankees and perhaps a few others. Definitely 1940s, and rare to find a Reds version. Great score!
Here’s the Yankees version (not mine).
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  #6669  
Old 09-20-2022, 03:53 PM
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Thanks, Mike. Cool to see another team.
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  #6670  
Old 09-21-2022, 08:45 AM
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Anyone have any other teams to show from this style?
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  #6671  
Old 09-21-2022, 09:47 AM
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Close but no cigar...
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  #6672  
Old 09-21-2022, 10:19 AM
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Before and after pictures of my most recent pickup.
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  #6673  
Old 09-21-2022, 01:20 PM
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^^^^ Bleach? Oxyclean?
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  #6674  
Old 09-21-2022, 02:00 PM
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^^^^ Bleach? Oxyclean?
I started with warm water to to get the surface dirt off. Followed it up with a few rounds of Retro Clean to get the yellowing out. Thought about hitting it with bleach but decided to quit while I was ahead.
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  #6675  
Old 09-21-2022, 02:25 PM
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I started with warm water to to get the surface dirt off. Followed it up with a few rounds of Retro Clean to get the yellowing out. Thought about hitting it with bleach but decided to quit while I was ahead.
Nice pickup and a great job cleaning it.
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  #6676  
Old 09-21-2022, 08:42 PM
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I started with warm water to to get the surface dirt off. Followed it up with a few rounds of Retro Clean to get the yellowing out. Thought about hitting it with bleach but decided to quit while I was ahead.
Good call. I don’t think the orange would have handled bleach.
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  #6677  
Old 09-23-2022, 07:25 PM
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Read description. Thoughts?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/20410095230...oAAOSwgr5jLjrT
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  #6678  
Old 09-23-2022, 08:55 PM
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You hear a lot of 70 year olds use the term “legit” in their daily vernacular. Seems “legit” to me
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  #6679  
Old 09-23-2022, 09:05 PM
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To me, the "felt" looks more modern than 1958. If original to '58, it would be made of cloth or a softer felt. Looks like an early '70s re-strike to me.
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  #6680  
Old 09-23-2022, 09:24 PM
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That's a reasonable description, Greg. Trench made that pennant; and, they made a 1960 and 1961 photo pennant using the same "LOS / ANGELES" script with team photos bearing 1960 or '61 dates--all shot at the Coliseum. So, the story checks out. See below pennant. (source: Doug Goodman's spectacular collection.)

...But, if it was purchased at the ballpark in 1958, it didn't come from Dodger Stadium; rather, the Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum where they played in those early days.
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  #6681  
Old 09-24-2022, 08:51 AM
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I didn't think it was from the 50's because I didn't think they were using the flying ball logo then, but as Domer pointed out to me it did appear on some pennants in Brooklyn in 1955. I see the flying ball logo, although somewhat different than the eBay pennant, does appear on LA novelty items in the 1960 mail order catalog, so who knows?

Rick

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Last edited by rlevy; 09-24-2022 at 11:26 AM. Reason: edited to clarify Brooklyn usage
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  #6682  
Old 09-26-2022, 09:36 PM
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My earlier post was a joke. This pennant is from the 70’s
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  #6683  
Old 09-27-2022, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
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My earlier post was a joke. This pennant is from the 70’s
I’m glad you cleared that up…. because I was confused!
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  #6684  
Old 09-30-2022, 11:52 AM
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For the sake of bumping this thread....JR got a pretty healthy price for this:
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  #6685  
Old 10-02-2022, 01:29 PM
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A recent pickup to keep the thread going.

I've not seen this pennant in Blue and Red before. The graphics aren't awe inspiring but the condition is great and the price was ridiculously cheap.
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  #6686  
Old 10-02-2022, 03:06 PM
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Very nice Keezer pennant. Great shape, too!
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  #6687  
Old 10-02-2022, 04:16 PM
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Can you spot the red flag?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/22518833606...0AAOSwNOBjOgXz
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  #6688  
Old 10-02-2022, 06:55 PM
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I can’t….but, then again, I pay no attention to D**gers stuff.
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  #6689  
Old 10-03-2022, 12:12 AM
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Fake spine. Looking at the stitching....

A. The vertical stitches are way too small/close together for Trench

B. The horizontal stitching at top and bottom of spine does not allow for a stick to go through

Trench never sewed them like this (nor did anyone else that I'm aware of).
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Old 10-03-2022, 06:10 AM
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Fake spine. Looking at the stitching....

A. The vertical stitches are way too small/close together for Trench

B. The horizontal stitching at top and bottom of spine does not allow for a stick to go through

Trench never sewed them like this (nor did anyone else that I'm aware of).
Yep. You got it. Also I’m not sure this is cloth. The printing looks different, as if it is rubberized so that it wouldn’t crack. I think this pennant was reproduced at some point and this is one of them.
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  #6691  
Old 10-03-2022, 08:38 AM
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Yep. You got it. Also I’m not sure this is cloth. The printing looks different, as if it is rubberized so that it wouldn’t crack. I think this pennant was reproduced at some point and this is one of them.
Wow, that is scary good. Who in the world would have the capability to make something like this, and for what purpose? Would it be worth their while to make just one, and if there were more than one, wouldn't you experts have spotted them coming out on the market? On the other hand, M&N and others have put out some realistic repro/fantasy pennants, so I guess the technology is available. But I'm amazed someone could think they could get away with faking these and go to the trouble of doing it to make a few bucks. Of course, as we've seen in cards and autographs, where there's money to be made, anything's possible, so why not memorabilia, too?
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Old 10-03-2022, 10:54 AM
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Good questions and observations, Hank!

Looking at the first picture of the full pennant, I can definitely see some puckering and cracking of the scroll portion. I am not sure about the "rubberized" graphics theory, as a result. Plus, all of his other pennants for sale are authentic. I know there are reproductions of this pennant, but think this one is authentic with a replaced spine.

I have seen countless pennants where the body of the pennant is perfect, but the spine has multiple moth nips and holes. For some reason, the bugs seemed to favor the spine portion for their "meal".

To me, it makes the most sense that this pennant was nicely stored away for most of its life (which would explain the lack of wear), but that moths got to the spine. I think someone replaced the spine at some point, and the "seamstress" simply didn't properly replicate the original style of stitching.

Last edited by perezfan; 10-03-2022 at 11:12 AM.
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  #6693  
Old 10-03-2022, 01:21 PM
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College Basketball
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  #6694  
Old 10-03-2022, 01:48 PM
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College Basketball
Gorgeous!
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  #6695  
Old 10-03-2022, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by perezfan View Post
Good questions and observations, Hank!

Looking at the first picture of the full pennant, I can definitely see some puckering and cracking of the scroll portion. I am not sure about the "rubberized" graphics theory, as a result. Plus, all of his other pennants for sale are authentic. I know there are reproductions of this pennant, but think this one is authentic with a replaced spine.

I have seen countless pennants where the body of the pennant is perfect, but the spine has multiple moth nips and holes. For some reason, the bugs seemed to favor the spine portion for their "meal".

To me, it makes the most sense that this pennant was nicely stored away for most of its life (which would explain the lack of wear), but that moths got to the spine. I think someone replaced the spine at some point, and the "seamstress" simply didn't properly replicate the original style of stitching.
The seller is a good guy, I have bought from him before. I think it’s a genuine mistake. These are very good repros. I’ve seen these before. Below are pics of the scroll on (a) authentic and (b) the one in question. There are clear differences. (I have three of these and the scrolls all match.) You can see it with “ALSTON, Mgr.” and the alignment of “NEWCOMBE and WALKER” for example. Mark, I see the puckering you see but I think that’s from the material bring felt and not thin smooth cloth. I don’t see any cracking.

So that doesn’t prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it isn’t circa 1955, just that it’s a different screen, and I’m not sure why there would be two different with the same names … just my opinion
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File Type: jpg IMG_5372.jpg (211.0 KB, 101 views)

Last edited by thetahat; 10-03-2022 at 01:54 PM.
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Old 10-03-2022, 02:04 PM
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Here are a couple other versions of the ebay pennant, note the similar stitching and the use of blue threading on the back (which should be red). The third link is to an authentic '55. Can also see a difference with respect to the placement of the year.

https://auction.lelands.com/bids/bidplace?itemid=88844

https://www.josportsinc.com/products...mpions-pennant

https://www.ebay.com/itm/16566251892...4AAOSwOY1jF3j1

Last edited by thetahat; 10-03-2022 at 02:07 PM.
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Old 10-03-2022, 04:24 PM
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I was inclined to agree with Mark's explanation: most likely, someone sewed a new replacement spine + tassels to a genuine '55 pennant. Why not? You've got a perfect, otherwise mint pennant that will sell for crazy money; but for some unsightly moth bites on the spine. Easy fix: swap out the spines. (Only us pennant nerds would notice!).

Sidenote: I always wondered why moths seemed to like spines and tassels over other parts. The reason is the spines + tassels were made with genuine wool even in the 1950s and 60s. That wasn't always true for the bodies, which were typically wool/rayon blends by the 1950s. So, if you were a moth, you wouldn't waste your time with the bodies unless it was a ca. 1910s pennant made from 100% wool.

Anyway, then I looked at the screen printed graphics and noted something that gave me pause. According to my research on Trench, and my conversations with Mr. Storm himself, these pennants were made a certain way. First they screen printed the graphics in white (called an underbase). Then, they applied all secondary and tertiary colors via an airbrush + blockout stencil.

I'm not sure I see evidence of this process/look on this '55 pennant.... The pink in the bum's shirt looks like it was printed using pink (not white) paint. We can even see evidence of the royal blue shining through it, because they used unleaded (contemporary) paint, which lacked the opacity that Trench's white leaded paints were known for. That's why both the white scroll and the pink shirt look a little blotchy.

Just an observation. I hope I'm wrong ... because it's a convincing reproduction and it would fool many a buyer.
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Old 10-03-2022, 04:53 PM
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Another thing that jumps out is that the black in Emmet’s derby and beard is jet black on the eBay pennant, the authentic versions like all with the bum have more a granite shade.

Also … you’ll love this … Emmet’s eyebrows are supposed to match his hair (gray). The eBay pennant has EK with black brows.
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Old 10-03-2022, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Domer05 View Post
I was inclined to agree with Mark's explanation: most likely, someone sewed a new replacement spine + tassels to a genuine '55 pennant. Why not? You've got a perfect, otherwise mint pennant that will sell for crazy money; but for some unsightly moth bites on the spine. Easy fix: swap out the spines. (Only us pennant nerds would notice!).

Sidenote: I always wondered why moths seemed to like spines and tassels over other parts. The reason is the spines + tassels were made with genuine wool even in the 1950s and 60s. That wasn't always true for the bodies, which were typically wool/rayon blends by the 1950s. So, if you were a moth, you wouldn't waste your time with the bodies unless it was a ca. 1910s pennant made from 100% wool.

Anyway, then I looked at the screen printed graphics and noted something that gave me pause. According to my research on Trench, and my conversations with Mr. Storm himself, these pennants were made a certain way. First they screen printed the graphics in white (called an underbase). Then, they applied all secondary and tertiary colors via an airbrush + blockout stencil.

I'm not sure I see evidence of this process/look on this '55 pennant.... The pink in the bum's shirt looks like it was printed using pink (not white) paint. We can even see evidence of the royal blue shining through it, because they used unleaded (contemporary) paint, which lacked the opacity that Trench's white leaded paints were known for. That's why both the white scroll and the pink shirt look a little blotchy.

Just an observation. I hope I'm wrong ... because it's a convincing reproduction and it would fool many a buyer.
It has fooled many buyers, see the link to the one in the Leland’s auction.
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Old 10-03-2022, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thetahat View Post
Here are a couple other versions of the ebay pennant, note the similar stitching and the use of blue threading on the back (which should be red). The third link is to an authentic '55. Can also see a difference with respect to the placement of the year.
The comparison clinches it, no doubt. Now the question is, why was it made? And that's where the scary part comes in: I hope we're not in for a generation of repros good enough to be floating around shows and auctions without question.
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