Thoughts on Kaepernick & the national anthem

[packs]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

And I didn't address at the time it because it's a ridiculous statistic. But I'll play your game. There are nearly 1 million black males in prisons in this country. And you're saying that 212 of them are serving time for a crime they didn't commit?

It's unfortunate yes, but I think a .000212 error rate is probably a lot better than most countries. Do you do your job with a .000212 error rate?

Any more ridiculous stats?

Do you think the Innocence Project has all the time and resources in the world? Your posts are really borderline now and I'm growing concerned. I have made every effort to show you that the people arrested and the people convicted and the people exonerated are disproportionately African American. That makes all your supposed crime stats moot. In Minnesota, where Philando Castile was shot dead for no reason, 47 percent of all arrests were African Americans. Do you know how much of the population African Americans make up? 7 percent. Are you seriously suggesting 7 percent of the population are in fact committing nearly 50 percent of all crime? Or is it possible that the 7 percent of the population are held to a different standard than the other 93 percent?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by packs

I have made every effort to show you that the people arrested and the people convicted and the people exonerated are disproportionately African American.

And I have made every effort to show you that majority of violent crimes are committed by African Americans. Therefore, given that fact, doesn't it stand to reason that they would be arrested and convicted in disproportionate numbers? How hard is that one to figure out????

Let's just agree to disagree and move on.

[packs]

You haven't made any effort to do anything but dismiss racism.

[tschock]

"Are you seriously suggesting 7 percent of the population are in fact committing nearly 50 percent of all crime? Or is it possible that the 7 percent of the population are held to a different standard than the other 93 percent?"

Of course not. It would have to be lower than that, unless there aren't any repeat offenders. Personal actions and attitude over the course of time don't come into play at all, right?

Originally Posted by packs

You haven't made any effort to do anything but dismiss racism.

And you haven't made any effort to do anything but have all admit it is ONLY due to racism.

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by packs

You haven't made any effort to do anything but dismiss racism.

and you are apparently ignorant of black culture in inner cities and poor communities. crime is celebrated, education dismissed as 'for nerds and white people" heroes are Scarface, drug dealers, rappers who celebrate criminal activity and pro athletes. Those who fail to become the latter have grown up in a culture that tells them that to fit in and be part of the group they should embrace crime, selling drugs, stealing...etc Parents are more likely to be separated with no father interaction than any other group, black parents are also the least likely to take a direct interest in their child's education, more likely to overspend on vanity objects over groceries and spend the highest % of income on a vehicle than any other demographic. that's not good.

when you make up under 15% of the population at large but comprise 37% of the prison population, either you think we live in 1970's South Africa, or there is a cultural problem at work in the black community. My friend LP and I were talking last night about this and he said it's sad how the culture of the black community has fallen over the last 20 years to where it is now.

I,personally, think it's what happens when govt tells an entire group of people that they don't have to perform, they will save them a certain number of slots just because of their race. (not to mention the impact of generational welfare. nobody taught these families how to fish, they just kept giving them fish)


but go ahead, call us all racists from your lily white ivory tower because of what some sheltered academic sociologist told you. (hint, it isn't science no matter how hard they try to pretend it is)

[packs]

You guys are unbelievable. What do you have against admitting we have a racism problem in this country we've never overcome? Do you think there is something shameful about recognizing a failure? Because I happen to think the opposite. It is shameful to ignore a problem like systemic racism. Do you disregard the Civil Rights movement as some big to do? Or can you at least admit there was a problem then, even if you won't admit it now?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by packs

You guys are unbelievable. What do you have against admitting we have a racism problem in this country we've never overcome? Do you think there is something shameful about recognizing a failure? Because I happen to think the opposite. It is shameful to ignore a problem like systemic racism. Do you disregard the Civil Rights movement as some big to do? Or can you at least admit there was a problem then, even if you won't admit it now?

You sit there and talk about disproportionate numbers when it comes to arrests and convictions, so let me give you another disproportionate number. The national high school graduation rate for black males is 47% compared to nearly 75% for white males. Why aren't they graduating? Are the schools racist too forcing them to drop out? What do you think happens to them? It's the same thing happens to the white male drop outs - a majority of them end up in the prison system. No, Packs, we don't deny that racism exists. All we're saying is that they are a product of their own decisions (everybody is for that matter). Nobody is making them drop out. Their dropout rate has nothing to do with racism, but their dropout rate has a lot to do with why the arrest and conviction rates are disproportionate.

You're entitled to your opinion, just as we are. Here's the difference. Your opinion is based on your feelings. Our opinion is based on facts.

[packs]

Paint with a broader brush why don't you? I've been discussing police and their attitudes towards minorities because that is precisely what Kaepernick is protesting. What you're talking about is plain old geriatric racism and I would prefer not to hear anymore of it so I'll simply ignore you now.

[steve B]

Yes, there are still problems.

The civil rights movement in the 60's was right to try to correct what they could. And there are some things today that need fixing.

But....I find it also racist to say as many liberals do something along the lines of " These poor people can't fend for themselves in any way unless we give them our help."

Guess what? Nearly every group in this country has been oppressed and fairly seriously at different times. Nearly all of them eventually prospered by becoming part of the system and embracing stuff like laws and education.

Have I had advantages because of who I am? Probably, but it's hard to separate the ones from being from a really solid family and ones I might have had naturally. I know a few people who have started with more and done worse, and some who have started with less and done better. I do know that pretty much all my failings have been because of me.

Kapernick was as far as I can find an excellent student, and gifted athlete. Both of which got him advantages and opportunities that wouldn't have been open to me. (Passable student and moderately athletic)

Steve B

[tschock]

Originally Posted by bravos4evr

and you are apparently ignorant of black culture in inner cities and poor communities. crime is celebrated, education dismissed as 'for nerds and white people" heroes are Scarface, drug dealers, rappers who celebrate criminal activity and pro athletes. Those who fail to become the latter have grown up in a culture that tells them that to fit in and be part of the group they should embrace crime, selling drugs, stealing...etc Parents are more likely to be separated with no father interaction than any other group, black parents are also the least likely to take a direct interest in their child's education, more likely to overspend on vanity objects over groceries and spend the highest % of income on a vehicle than any other demographic. that's not good.

when you make up under 15% of the population at large but comprise 37% of the prison population, either you think we live in 1970's South Africa, or there is a cultural problem at work in the black community. My friend LP and I were talking last night about this and he said it's sad how the culture of the black community has fallen over the last 20 years to where it is now.

I,personally, think it's what happens when govt tells an entire group of people that they don't have to perform, they will save them a certain number of slots just because of their race. (not to mention the impact of generational welfare. nobody taught these families how to fish, they just kept giving them fish)


but go ahead, call us all racists from your lily white ivory tower because of what some sheltered academic sociologist told you. (hint, it isn't science no matter how hard they try to pretend it is)

Living in a city where the population is about 48/40/12 of white/black/other, it's an interesting perspective. If you talk about the root cause of these problems with working black FAMILIES, you find the views similar to what you expressed above. If you discuss this with single black parents or kids from single black parents, it's runs more along the lines of "packs" comments (maybe a 'pack' mentality?). Though where it starts to diverge again is around their views of education. Not counting the typical bobble-head fashioned responses you get from those illuminated by Duke (remembering the Duke 88), of course.

[dgo71]

Originally Posted by bravos4evr

and you are apparently ignorant of black culture in inner cities and poor communities. crime is celebrated, education dismissed as 'for nerds and white people" heroes are Scarface, drug dealers, rappers who celebrate criminal activity and pro athletes. Those who fail to become the latter have grown up in a culture that tells them that to fit in and be part of the group they should embrace crime, selling drugs, stealing...etc Parents are more likely to be separated with no father interaction than any other group, black parents are also the least likely to take a direct interest in their child's education, more likely to overspend on vanity objects over groceries and spend the highest % of income on a vehicle than any other demographic. that's not good.

Wow, if you could've worked eating watermelon and fried chicken in with all these other unquantifiable claims you would have won racist stereotype bingo. Have fun at your Klan rally this weekend.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by dgo71

...eating watermelon and fried chicken...

Wow! Talk about your stereotyping?

[dgo71]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Wow! Talk about your stereotyping?

Yeah, you got me. Clearly I'm the racist here.

Of all your attempts to deflect the conversation away from the real issue this post is by far the most laughable.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by dgo71

Wow, if you could've worked eating watermelon and fried chicken in with all these other unquantifiable claims you would have won racist stereotype bingo. Have fun at your Klan rally this weekend.

Just to put a tiny touch of humor out there.........

Boston area Busing program potluck dinner late 70's Hosted in the suburban town. Guy from Roxbury brings...........Yep fried chicken and watermelon. When the PTA ladies get all flustered and he hears "how could you?!" He simply says "What? I like this stuff!"

He would be very unlikely to get a Klan membership.

People are just people, and sometimes normal for them matches someone elses stereotype.

Steve B
PS. Awesome fried chicken, he made it himself. Fantastic cook.

[SAllen2556]

Originally Posted by packs

In Minnesota, where Philando Castile was shot dead for no reason, 47 percent of all arrests were African Americans. Do you know how much of the population African Americans make up? 7 percent. Are you seriously suggesting 7 percent of the population are in fact committing nearly 50 percent of all crime? Or is it possible that the 7 percent of the population are held to a different standard than the other 93 percent?

In the NBA, 77% of all fouls are called on African Americans. Therefore, NBA officials must be racists, right? Oh wait, 77% of the NBA is made up of African Americans. Do poorer people drive crappier cars which in turn get pulled over more often? Most certainly.

And in one quick google search I found stats that disagree with yours. This site has crime stats for Minnesota broken down by race. Go to page 63. https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/bca/bca...Crime-Book.pdf

It lists the crimes by race. Whites outnumber Afr. Americans by more than 2 to 1.

Also, according to the Innocence Project the number 1 reason for wrongful convictions is false identification, not racism! In fact, false identification was the cause in over 75% of the cases.

Betting you don't respond directly to what's stated above. But maybe you're different than others on the far left. Let's see.

[packs]

Two things for you:

1. I was talking about the area in which Castile was stopped and murdered, not the state as a whole.

2. The issue with identification is simple: it was the black guy, officer. Except, surprise, it wasn't. Or, alternately, it was a black guy, officer. Probably that black guy that you happen to put in front of me, but maybe not.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by packs

2. The issue with identification is simple: it was the black guy, officer. Except, surprise, it wasn't.

So you're saying that of the 212, 159 (75%) were in there because a white person committed the crime instead?

[packs]

I would never suggest that because that's insane to suggest. What I am suggesting is that there are plenty of people out there who see one black guy as all black guys. It wouldn't matter who you put in front of them, if they're black that was probably the guy.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by packs

I would never suggest that because that's insane to suggest. What I am suggesting is that there are plenty of people out there who see one black guy as all black guys. It wouldn't matter who you put in front of them, if they're black that was probably the guy.

You did, before you edited your post to add "Or, alternately, it was a black guy, officer. Probably that black guy that you happen to put in front of me, but maybe not." Fair enough.

So let me ask. What is the breakdown for how many of the 159 wrongly identified were identified by a black witness and how many were identified by a white (or maybe, non-black) witness?

[SAllen2556]

Originally Posted by packs

Two things for you:

1. I was talking about the area in which Castile was stopped and murdered, not the state as a whole.

2. The issue with identification is simple: it was the black guy, officer. Except, surprise, it wasn't. Or, alternately, it was a black guy, officer. Probably that black guy that you happen to put in front of me, but maybe not.

1. So you admit you're cherry-picking the statistics. The stats for the entire state of Minnesota would be considered much more valid to use if you wanted to generalize anything.

2. Well, even if the witness misidentified the proper black guy, it is very likely the criminal probably was still a black guy. You're certainly not implying that a witness who saw a white guy commit a crime told the police that it was actually a black guy. That's an argument a 12-year old would make.

[packs]

Originally Posted by SAllen2556

1. So you admit you're cherry-picking the statistics. The stats for the entire state of Minnesota would be considered much more valid to use if you wanted to generalize anything.

2. Well, even if the witness misidentified the proper black guy, it is very likely the criminal probably was still a black guy. You're certainly not implying that a witness who saw a white guy commit a crime told the police that it was actually a black guy. That's an argument a 12-year old would make.

I picked that statistic because I was talking about a specific incident that happened in a specific place. What does the rest of Minnesota have to do with Philando Castile's murder? He was murdered where he was murdered.

The point is, maybe there was no black guy at all. Maybe the black guy was a police invention in the first place. Maybe a witness didn't see anything. Have you ever heard of Louis Scarcella? Why don't you look him up.

Edited to add: I bring up the statistics I bring up in an effort to demonstrate that police bias and judicial prejudice are real things and not made up things that don't exist. That is my sole purpose in my posting, to say that these concerns are real concerns. They aren't opinions and they can't be brushed aside. It is a daily reality for many African Americans across the country.

[celoknob]

Maybe the NFL needs to implement "safe spaces" similar to some universities these days so as to protect some sensitive feelings from the open expression of Kaepernick's free speech.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by packs

Edited to add: I bring up the statistics I bring up in an effort to demonstrate that police bias and judicial prejudice are real things and not made up things that don't exist. That is my sole purpose in my posting, to say that these concerns are real concerns. They aren't opinions and they can't be brushed aside. It is a daily reality for many African Americans across the country.

Please study the difference between correlation and causation. You have a lot of the former but none of the later.

And to your point on the statistics you bring, since you brought it up, let me ask again. What is the breakdown for how many of the 159 wrongly identified were identified by a black witness and how many were identified by a white (or maybe, non-black) witness?

[packs]

Originally Posted by tschock

Please study the difference between correlation and causation. You have a lot of the former but none of the later.

And to your point on the statistics you bring, since you brought it up, let me ask again. What is the breakdown for how many of the 159 wrongly identified were identified by a black witness and how many were identified by a white (or maybe, non-black) witness?

I don't know how you could possibly expect me to know that. The Federal Government found both the Baltimore and Ferguson Police Departments and judicial systems to be racially bias. That was a government finding. How can anyone say it doesn't exist?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by packs

Edited to add: I bring up the statistics I bring up in an effort to demonstrate that police bias and judicial prejudice are real things and not made up things that don't exist. That is my sole purpose in my posting, to say that these concerns are real concerns. They aren't opinions and they can't be brushed aside. It is a daily reality for many African Americans across the country. It's not something they've done to themselves and seeing that people have that POV concerns me even more.

You're so full of crap its ridiculous. People make their own choices and are a product of their choices. Just like dropping out of school is a choice. You keep overlooking that statistic.

For the life of me I dont know why Leon continues to let you post without your full name.

[ALR-bishop]

Nessa Diab....no, that's not packs , but she may have a role in this