Does Pre-war mean pre-1939?

[darkhorse9]

I follow a pretty good site on Facebook called Pre-War Cards.

He sparked a bit of ire in me with a post declaring that post-war cards only consist of cards prior to 1939 (since that's when the war in Europe started)

https://prewarcards.com/2018/04/12/p...etball-hockey/

I disagreed saying pre-war means pre-America's involvement in war starting December 1941.

What say you?

[Rich Falvo]

Doesn't he say prior to 1940, not 1939? I agree with him. That's a good compromise dividing line. The war had started by then, even if the US was not directly involved yet.

[Leon]

I have always thought of pre war to be 1945, and back, as that is when the war ended. There is no right answer as it's subjective though technically if something says pre-wwII it would have to be before the war started. For collecting that isn't the way I have thought of it. There are too many sets produced in those 1939-1945 years for me to go there, though admittedly, most are smaller sets and issues. To each their own though.... Other than the technical definition, it is interesting to see collectors tell me factually what it means to collecting.


F Unc 1939. Wheaties & MobilGas St.Paul Team
F-Unc 1939 Pittsburgh Pirates- Duquesne beer premium
F Unc 1940's Piels - Terry, Ballantine- Klinger,Davis & Trommers Coasters
F Unc 1940s Rheingold Beer Premium- Foxx, 8 x 10
F Unc 1940s M & Ms - Joe Dimaggio Sports Club card
F Unc 1940 Crowleys Milk Milosevich and Silvonic- blank and used-postal backs
F Unc 1942 Oertel Brewing Louisville Colonels
F Unc 1943 Oertel Brewing Louisville Colonels
F Unc 1943 Cuban Cristal drink- Martinez
F Unc 1943 Golden Quality Ice Cream Damaltron
F Unc 1944 Oertel Brewing Louisville Colonels
F Unc 1945 Oertel Brewing Louisville Colonels


H-Unc 1939 KMBC,Wheaties,Mobil- Kansas Team premium w/Rizzuto
H-Unc 1939 Father & Son Shoes- Gantenbein, 3x4,(blank back)
H-Unc 1939 Kimball Automotive club Trois-Rivieres -Copple
H-Unc 1939 Kimball Automotive club Trois-Rivieres -Skelton
H-Unc 1939 Cubs Picture Pack (25 w/Dean) & Env.
H-Unc 1939 Phili Team Issue-Gantenbein,Ross(blank back)7x10
H-Unc 1940 Phillies Team Issue 6 x 8, blank back- Marty
H-Unc 1940 Reds Premium - Harry Thobe
H-Unc 1940 Seattle Raniers team premium
H-Unc 1940 Kansas City Blues Team- Radio premium
H-Unc 1940 Bisons Team issue-Giebell,Martin,Stromme,Zubik(all same size)
H-Unc 1940 Cincinnati Reds Team Issue - Dejan, Thompson, Turner <
H-Unc 1940 Cubs Team Set - Lotshaw w/envelope
H-Unc 1940 Bob Bragan homemade card, 3 x 4
H-Unc 1940 Dimaggio, Boosters card and photo premium
H-Unc 1941 Dodgers Picture Pack complete w/Reese
H-Unc 1941 Seattle Rainers (Sicks' Stadium) Lawrence
H-Unc 1941 Montreal Team issue Bell,Head,Graham (blank backs)
H-Unc 1941 Emil Sick's Champions (Sicks' Stadium)Xmas card
H-Unc 1941 & 1942 Tickets - Martin Appreciation & Southworth Dinner
H-Unc 1942 Editorial Bruguera #12 Babe Ruth
H-Unc 1943 Renegar Studios premium- Hicks
H-Unc 1943 Ted Williams & Babe Ruth- First Meeting
H-Unc 1943 St.Louis Browns 8 x 10
H-Unc 1943 St.Louis Cardinals 8 x 10
H-Unc 1943/44 La Campana premium- Salazar & Arteaga
H-Unc 1943 Grand Studio Sproull PSA 7.5
H-Unc 1944 Grand Studio Stengel PSA 3
H-Unc 1945 Cleveland Indian Premium

M-Unc 1941 The Sporting News Pub.Co.- White Sox premium
M-Unc 1941 Cuban Zig Zag Magazine, NY Yankees
M-Unc 1941 Cuban Zig Zag Magazine, NY Yankees (back)
M-Unc 1943 Toledo Mudhen Guide (blank back)- Ralph LinWeber
M-Unc 1943 The Sporting News Yankees Team
M-Unc 1945 Paul Stuarts Parade Sportive Royals team

R334 1939 Playball Gomex, Schact, Williams
R335 1940 Playball Mack,R336 Playball 1941 V.Dimaggio,Reese
R336 1941 Play ball Wartime sheet of 12

ST-Unc 1940 Associated Stations stamp album/stamps-
ST-Unc 1940 Associated Stations stamp- Bob Price
ST-Unc 1943 World Champion NY Yankees w/album and ad form

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by Leon

I have always thought of pre war to be 1945, and back, as that is when the war ended. There is no right answer as it's subjective though technically if something says pre-wwII it would have to be before the war started. For collecting that isn't the way I have thought of it. There are too many sets produced in those 1939-1945 years for me to go there, though admittedly, most are smaller sets and issues. To each their own though.... Other than the technical definition, it is interesting to see collectors tell me factually what it means to collecting.


F Unc 1939. Wheaties & MobilGas St.Paul Team
F-Unc 1939 Pittsburgh Pirates- Duquesne beer premium
F Unc 1940's Piels - Terry, Ballantine- Klinger,Davis & Trommers Coasters
F Unc 1940s Rheingold Beer Premium- Foxx, 8 x 10
F Unc 1940s M & Ms - Joe Dimaggio Sports Club card
F Unc 1940 Crowleys Milk Milosevich and Silvonic- blank and used-postal backs
F Unc 1942 Oertel Brewing Louisville Colonels
F Unc 1943 Oertel Brewing Louisville Colonels
F Unc 1943 Cuban Cristal drink- Martinez
F Unc 1943 Golden Quality Ice Cream Damaltron
F Unc 1944 Oertel Brewing Louisville Colonels
F Unc 1945 Oertel Brewing Louisville Colonels


H-Unc 1939 KMBC,Wheaties,Mobil- Kansas Team premium w/Rizzuto
H-Unc 1939 Father & Son Shoes- Gantenbein, 3x4,(blank back)
H-Unc 1939 Kimball Automotive club Trois-Rivieres -Copple
H-Unc 1939 Kimball Automotive club Trois-Rivieres -Skelton
H-Unc 1939 Cubs Picture Pack (25 w/Dean) & Env.
H-Unc 1939 Phili Team Issue-Gantenbein,Ross(blank back)7x10
H-Unc 1940 Phillies Team Issue 6 x 8, blank back- Marty
H-Unc 1940 Reds Premium - Harry Thobe
H-Unc 1940 Seattle Raniers team premium
H-Unc 1940 Kansas City Blues Team- Radio premium
H-Unc 1940 Bisons Team issue-Giebell,Martin,Stromme,Zubik(all same size)
H-Unc 1940 Cincinnati Reds Team Issue - Dejan, Thompson, Turner <
H-Unc 1940 Cubs Team Set - Lotshaw w/envelope
H-Unc 1940 Bob Bragan homemade card, 3 x 4
H-Unc 1940 Dimaggio, Boosters card and photo premium
H-Unc 1941 Dodgers Picture Pack complete w/Reese
H-Unc 1941 Seattle Rainers (Sicks' Stadium) Lawrence
H-Unc 1941 Montreal Team issue Bell,Head,Graham (blank backs)
H-Unc 1941 Emil Sick's Champions (Sicks' Stadium)Xmas card
H-Unc 1941 & 1942 Tickets - Martin Appreciation & Southworth Dinner
H-Unc 1942 Editorial Bruguera #12 Babe Ruth
H-Unc 1943 Renegar Studios premium- Hicks
H-Unc 1943 Ted Williams & Babe Ruth- First Meeting
H-Unc 1943 St.Louis Browns 8 x 10
H-Unc 1943 St.Louis Cardinals 8 x 10
H-Unc 1943/44 La Campana premium- Salazar & Arteaga
H-Unc 1943 Grand Studio Sproull PSA 7.5
H-Unc 1944 Grand Studio Stengel PSA 3
H-Unc 1945 Cleveland Indian Premium

M-Unc 1941 The Sporting News Pub.Co.- White Sox premium
M-Unc 1941 Cuban Zig Zag Magazine, NY Yankees
M-Unc 1941 Cuban Zig Zag Magazine, NY Yankees (back)
M-Unc 1943 Toledo Mudhen Guide (blank back)- Ralph LinWeber
M-Unc 1943 The Sporting News Yankees Team
M-Unc 1945 Paul Stuarts Parade Sportive Royals team

R334 1939 Playball Gomex, Schact, Williams
R335 1940 Playball Mack,R336 Playball 1941 V.Dimaggio,Reese
R336 1941 Play ball Wartime sheet of 12

ST-Unc 1940 Associated Stations stamp album/stamps-
ST-Unc 1940 Associated Stations stamp- Bob Price
ST-Unc 1943 World Champion NY Yankees w/album and ad form

Leon- I usually agree with everything you say, but this doesn't compute to me:

'I have always thought of pre war to be 1945, and back, as that is when the war ended.'

[Leon]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

Leon- I usually agree with everything you say, but this doesn't compute to me:

'I have always thought of pre war to be 1945, and back, as that is when the war ended.'

First of all I can't believe anyone agrees with me . But regardless of that you might be interpreting what I said incorrectly. I guess it could be called the end of the war category? But as others have mentioned too, I have always felt the category for pre war was when WWII ended. Otherwise, they would be war cards. Really, whatever floats your boat is fine by me. As I had mentioned way above also, I don't think there can be a definitive answer except the technical one (others may disagree). Wiki says WWII started in 1941, so if you go with them (and most others), anything before that is pre-wwII. I am not sure how that can be argued in a technical manner. But for this board and I, because it can be somewhat controversial, we went with a different way to address it; WWII & Older
.

[Cozumeleno]

That's my article, so I'll chime in.

First, since there's some confusion, as a point of clarification, my definition is pre-1940 cards (i.e. 1939 counts while 1940 doesn't). I realize there are some 1939 issues that technically came after the 'start' of the war but trying to separate those out is virtually impossible.

There's no consensus on it as we see here. My pre-1940 date hinges on the fact that these are called 'pre' war cards. A 1940 card, in my opinion, shouldn't be considered pre-war because war was already occurring. And using dates of when paper rationing started, when cards declined, etc., never really made sense to me. They're called pre-war not pre-paper shortage, etc. I can respect differing opinions on that. I'd just disagree a little there. I mean, if there was no paper shortage at all, does that mean we don't have a pre-war era?

I can understand a 1945 date more than I can 1941, to be honest. I interpret pre-war as before the war began but others may interpret it as when the war ended. Again, I don't agree but I can understand that. But 1941 won't ever make sense to me because pre-war cards encompass more than simply U.S. issues. If we're using a country's (in this case, the U.S.) entry date into WWII as the determining factor that means pre-war dates would differ depending on the country someone is in. To me, the era should be the same no matter where you live and having pre-war eras with different dates around the globe seems like it would be far too confusing.

All of that said, I realize there's no consensus, nor will there ever be. But that's my story and I'm sticking to it

[joshuanip]

Really!? For all intensive purposes cards stopped after the US entered WW2, roughly after Pearl Harbor (sorry moe berg fans). That’s when paper rationing started, men’s pro baseball went on haitus, and cards production died off (unfortunately as playball was starting to get it right with their 1941 release).

Baseball and it’s cards were primarily US culture (sans the odd ball Cuban and Ruth tobacco issues) back then, so I follow US history in determining prewar.

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by joshuanip

Really!? For all intensive purposes cards stopped after the US entered WW2, roughly after Pearl Harbor (sorry moe berg fans). That’s when paper rationing started, men’s pro baseball went on haitus, and cards production died off (unfortunately as playball was starting to get it right with their 1941 release).

Baseball and it’s cards were primarily US culture (sans the odd ball Cuban and Ruth tobacco issues) back then, so I follow US history in determining prewar.

There is this "little" area north of the US where cards - mostly hockey - were just as big a part of the culture as baseball cards in the US.

[leaflover]

Are "Prewar" and "Vintage" synonymous?

[ALR-bishop]

What we need is an official hobby definition of terms such as pre war, vintage, variation, master set, and rookie card. Whoever is in charge of this hobby should clearly define these terms

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by joshuanip

Really!? For all intensive purposes cards stopped after the US entered WW2, roughly after Pearl Harbor (sorry moe berg fans). That’s when paper rationing started, men’s pro baseball went on haitus, and cards production died off (unfortunately as playball was starting to get it right with their 1941 release).

Baseball and it’s cards were primarily US culture (sans the odd ball Cuban and Ruth tobacco issues) back then, so I follow US history in determining prewar.

Joshua

I am rarely a member of the grammar bureau of investigation, but I need to point this one out as I have seen several people muck it up. It is 'all intents and purposes' which means under most usual circumstances.

[rats60]

Yes, prewar cards are 1941 and earlier. Rationing of items in the US started in December 1941 and increased through 1942 to support the war effort. Production of baseball cards between 1942-1945 would have been seen as a luxury and contrary to the war effort.

Even by his strict definition, World War 2 didn't start until September 1939, so that would have been after most, if not all, 1939 baseball sets were produced. Even in England rationing of paper didn't begin until the summer of 1940.

[Rich Falvo]

Originally Posted by rats60

Even by his strict definition, World War 2 didn't start until September 1939, so that would have been after most, if not all, 1939 baseball sets were produced. Even in England rationing of paper didn't begin until the summer of 1940.

Right, which is why he said that 1939 cards are pre-war.

[36GoudeyMan]

Seems to me, as a casual observer, that "pre-war" could mean pretty much anything. Informed people can use particular milestones of which they are aware as the cut-off, and others may disagree. I look at "pre-war" as meaning "not post-war," which is, admittedly, also pretty arbitrary, but allows me to consider 1945 and earlier on one side of the divide, and 1946 and later on the other. I guess I'm not comfortable with the notion that cards issued "during" World War II (is that a new category? "war-era"?) are either pre- or post-war, so I choose to define it in the negative, FWIW....

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Rich Falvo

Right, which is why he said that 1939 cards are pre-war.

The OP says that he was told that cards had to be before 1939. That is not right. 1941 Play Ball has always been considered prewar.

The September 1939 date is an arbitrary one, based on England declaring war on Germany. The war had began in Asia with Japan invading Manchuria in 1931, followed by Italy invading Ethiopia in 1935, Japan invading China in 1937 and Germany annexing Austria in 1938. The war didn't become a true world war until Germany invaded Russia June 22, 1941 and Japan attacked Pearl Harbor December 7, 1941. That is why I consider anything 1941 or before prewar.

[Mark]

The pre-war cut off for British, French, Polish, and German cards is 1939. Russian cards are pre-war up until 41. Spanish cards must have been issued before 1936 to be pre-war. Japanese cards are pre-war only up to 1937. In the USA, pre-war is 1941 and before. Canadian cards, however, have to have been issued before 1939 to be pre-war.

[pokerplyr80]

As there is no separate during war category I've always thought post war starts after 1945, when the war ended. Prewar would be anything issued in 1945 or before.

[Rich Falvo]

Originally Posted by rats60

The OP says that he was told that cards had to be before 1939.

I'm only trying to point out the the OP quoted the article incorrectly. The author stated that he believed in using Pre-1940, not Pre-1939.

[Mark]

Originally Posted by Rich Falvo

I'm only trying to point out the the OP quoted the article incorrectly. The author stated that he believed in using Pre-1940, not Pre-1939.

In all seriousness, the US wasn't involved in the war until the end of 1941, long after Play Ball had finished issuing its 1941 set, no? The war is the great dividing line becasue that's when Play Ball got out of the baseball card business.