A Jimmy Spence authentication question.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by ibuysportsephemera

Travis....this thread... http://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=146382

You had the opportunity to denounce Morales and you never did, but you certainly called out all of the alphabet boys. I was glad to see that my memory and impressions were correct.

Jeff

You had a chance to post any statement I have made DEFENDING Morales.
You posted nothing.

Guess I have never defended Morales then.


My question which hasnt been answered by anyone yet, is why are their sacred cows? Why would Spence be above criticism? Why are people scared? I could say the absence of most people posting and saying this type of practice of authenticating 150 plus signatures wouldn't be kosher would be a defense of Spence. Well if you are defending Spence, then DEFEND him! Just like if I wanted to defend Morales, I would. I don't see anything.

I have never called Spence scum, and idiot, a criminal, etc. yet when I bring up valid criticism, not just name calling, it's "Bashing". Go start a Morales thread, I don't mind.


I assume people don't want to wade into the debate when it concerns JSA or PSA, and that's fine, and I make no assumptions if they are for/against someone or their practices of authentication when they make no statement, because I am fair when I assess people's views. You know I am critical of Spence and PSA, and you don't like it, so you have to change the debate, and change it quick to something else, because criticism of JSA or PSA just cannot be tolerated.

Look for anything I have said that calls psa or jsa names on a personal level, then look at my criticism, then look if the criticism is valid. You would think I shot Santa Claus on how some react negatively to VALID criticism (and most of the time they cannot defend the practices, but dislike me for pointing it out, why?) but most say nothing, But I don't castigate them for saying nothing. It's everyone's right, and when the day comes when we have to read off a prepared sheet in order to comply with the law, would be a sad day in America indeed.

[steve B]

I would only assume that they only looked at the names listed on the LOA.

Steve B

As an aside, if the brazilian wood on that guitar is rosewood it's big trouble. (Endangered species)

Second aside - My saw has none of the factory safety guides. Quite honestly of the three it came with one damaged the work, and the other two were so poorly made as to be less safe than no guard at all. I add safeties as needed and work carefuly.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by steve B

I would only assume that they only looked at the names listed on the LOA.

Steve B

As an aside, if the brazilian wood on that guitar is rosewood it's big trouble. (Endangered species)

Second aside - My saw has none of the factory safety guides. Quite honestly of the three it came with one damaged the work, and the other two were so poorly made as to be less safe than no guard at all. I add safeties as needed and work carefuly.

And if they did only look at those names, it's cool, but they should just say so, not that they looked at them all.

[ibuysportsephemera]

Originally Posted by travrosty

You had a chance to post any statement I have made DEFENDING Morales.
You posted nothing.

Guess I have never defended Morales then.


My question which hasnt been answered by anyone yet, is why are their sacred cows? Why would Spence be above criticism? Why are people scared? I could say the absence of most people posting and saying this type of practice of authenticating 150 plus signatures wouldn't be kosher would be a defense of Spence. Well if you are defending Spence, then DEFEND him! Just like if I wanted to defend Morales, I would. I don't see anything.

I have never called Spence scum, and idiot, a criminal, etc. yet when I bring up valid criticism, not just name calling, it's "Bashing". Go start a Morales thread, I don't mind.


I assume people don't want to wade into the debate when it concerns JSA or PSA, and that's fine, and I make no assumptions if they are for/against someone or their practices of authentication when they make no statement, because I am fair when I assess people's views. You know I am critical of Spence and PSA, and you don't like it, so you have to change the debate, and change it quick to something else, because criticism of JSA or PSA just cannot be tolerated.

Look for anything I have said that calls psa or jsa names on a personal level, then look at my criticism, then look if the criticism is valid. You would think I shot Santa Claus on how some react negatively to VALID criticism (and most of the time they cannot defend the practices, but dislike me for pointing it out, why?) but most say nothing, But I don't castigate them for saying nothing. It's everyone's right, and when the day comes when we have to read off a prepared sheet in order to comply with the law, would be a sad day in America indeed.

It's simple...you pull examples from Spence and question their authentication. You started this thread and mentioned Spence and Morales together in the original post. That is why I questioned you. I know next to nothing about autographs compared to you guys, but I can go on CC every month and pull multiple items that Morales has lent his name to that are questionable. Why haven't you ever started a thread critical of Morales? That is my only question.

Jeff

[thetruthisoutthere]

Travis has every right to post here just like the rest of us do. If he wants to question a JSA certed item, that's his right. If he wants to criticize JSA's method of authenticating the above item, that's his choice. If Travis can't criticize Chris Morales, that's up to him.

But recently Travis said (paraphrasing) that Todd Mueller is the top expert when it comes to authenticating autographs. Now keep in mind, that Travis is criticizing JSA for certing the above Negro League “Baseball’s Greatest on the Field” 22” x 24” Framed Print Signed by (150+) Negro League Hall of Famers and Greats.

But yet his top expert of choice, Todd Mueller, certed and sold the below horrific Derek Jeter forgery. This isn't a piece that contains 100+ signatures, but a piece that contains one autograph of Derek Jeter. Tell us, Travis, how did your authenticator of choice get this Jeter wrong? After all, Travis, Mr. Mueller only had one signature to examine, not 150 signatures.

MuellerJeterForgeryPathetic.jpg

[thetruthisoutthere]

Travis, what method did Mr. Mueller use to authenticate the below Sandy Koufax pathetic forgery?

After all, Travis, it's only one signature, not 150 signatures.

[travrosty]

Here we go again. deflect, change the subject, because there is no defense for the item I have shown. typical.

Mr. Mueller can answer for himself, he has put forth an authentication challenge publicly to anyone with no takers.

Spence must not have anybody willing to defend what he does when no one speaks up for him except to accuse me of something. Then they just bring up someone else like morales, mueller, someone else and claim i 'attack' spence or 'attack' the tpa's. Just go start a morales, or a mueller thread if you want. But this spence thread has more than made its point when inevitably, people try to derail the topic at hand with other diversions. happens every time.

I saw a cc thread recently when cc and morales were lambasted, items from their auction shown and name calling began. i dont care but notice no one came online and tried to steer the topic to someone else. no one defended cc or morales by saying, well, what about this other guy, lets look at him, dont talk about cc or morales, this other guy over here did this, and so forth.

But we constantly get that here when the sacred cows of spence, jsa, grad, psa come up. they cant debate the facts or choose not to, so let's switch the topic.

It is an abbot and costello routine every time, but instead of saying "i don't know" which is instantly followed by "third base", it is the word spence, or psa, instantly followed by someone yelling "Morales".

Third party authentication companies don't mind a bogeyman, so they can claim that the hobby really needs them to save collectors from these bogeymen. It gives them a reason for being. Find a monster and then tout yourself as the white knight coming to save the day. No one ever questions the white knight when there is a monster around. When the monster is sick, the white knight might get nervous as no one needs a knight without the dragon.

The case of the disappearing wagner autograph certed by spence was one of the biggest stories i have ever seen regarding authentication, and the rug sweeping began. Where was everybody?

Notice no one on this board that I am aware of has any morales certed items at home. but do they have spence and grad certs? wonder why they won't say anything to critique them? maybe they have a vested interest in the certs they have at home and want to protect them? Not everyone is like this but some are. When GAI was equal to PSA I bet no one would criticize them out of fear also, but when they declared bankruptcy, their certs plunged in credibility, and everyone piled on because there was no more intimidation factor or backlash for speaking out. They were fair game. No downside to criticizing them. Now people with a collection stockpiled with psa or jsa's certs don't want the GAI phenomenon to happen to them. And some people have thousands and thousands of items certed by psa or jsa. Quite the incentive to slap down someone like me for speaking out at basic issues making valid points.

For full disclosure I don't have Morales, JSA or PSA certed items. I do my own homework and if something I buy has a cert, I simply place it in the wastebasket since they don't guarantee their opinion. When someone guarantees their opinion, I will keep the cert because it's then a warranty.

I have always said, I have never been against the concept of third party authentication, I just don't like the way it is being done now and can't endorse the current system of what I consider fast food authentication and no guaranteed opinions.

Mueller is not a TPA. But his opinion is valued by myself. If Spence of Grad's is valued by others, that's great, it's a free country.

[David Atkatz]

Travis, too many people are too heavily invested in the alphabet guys' product. They have no trust in their collections beyond that instilled by the CoAs. To admit that JSA and PSA suck is to begin to doubt their own holdings, and that's not going to happen.

PS: Chris, whatever would you do if you lost the ability to take screenshots?

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by travrosty

Here we go again. deflect, change the subject, because there is no defense for the item I have shown. typical.

Mr. Mueller can answer for himself, he has put forth an authentication challenge publicly to anyone with no takers.

Spence must not have anybody willing to defend what he does when no one speaks up for him except to accuse me of something. Then they just bring up someone else like morales, mueller, someone else and claim i 'attack' spence or 'attack' the tpa's. Just go start a morales, or a mueller thread if you want. But this spence thread has more than made its point when inevitably, people try to derail the topic at hand with other diversions. happens every time.

I saw a cc thread recently when cc and morales were lambasted, items from their auction shown and name calling began. i dont care but notice no one came online and tried to steer the topic to someone else. no one defended cc or morales by saying, well, what about this other guy, lets look at him, dont talk about cc or morales, this other guy over here did this, and so forth.

But we constantly get that here when the sacred cows of spence, jsa, grad, psa come up. they cant debate the facts or choose not to, so let's switch the topic.

It is an abbot and costello routine every time, but instead of saying "i don't know" which is instantly followed by "third base", it is the word spence, or psa, instantly followed by someone yelling "Morales".

Third party authentication companies don't mind a bogeyman, so they can claim that the hobby really needs them to save collectors from these bogeymen. It gives them a reason for being. Find a monster and then tout yourself as the white knight coming to save the day. No one ever questions the white knight when there is a monster around. When the monster is sick, the white knight might get nervous as no one needs a knight without the dragon.

The case of the disappearing wagner autograph certed by spence was one of the biggest stories i have ever seen regarding authentication, and the rug sweeping began. Where was everybody?

Notice no one on this board that I am aware of has any morales certed items at home. but do they have spence and grad certs? wonder why they won't say anything to critique them? maybe they have a vested interest in the certs they have at home and want to protect them? Not everyone is like this but some are. When GAI was equal to PSA I bet no one would criticize them out of fear also, but when they declared bankruptcy, their certs plunged in credibility, and everyone piled on because there was no more intimidation factor or backlash for speaking out. They were fair game. No downside to criticizing them. Now people with a collection stockpiled with psa or jsa's certs don't want the GAI phenomenon to happen to them. And some people have thousands and thousands of items certed by psa or jsa. Quite the incentive to slap down someone like me for speaking out at basic issues making valid points.

For full disclosure I don't have Morales, JSA or PSA certed items. I do my own homework and if something I buy has a cert, I simply place it in the wastebasket since they don't guarantee their opinion. When someone guarantees their opinion, I will keep the cert because it's then a warranty.

I have always said, I have never been against the concept of third party authentication, I just don't like the way it is being done now and can't endorse the current system of what I consider fast food authentication and no guaranteed opinions.

Mueller is not a TPA. But his opinion is valued by myself. If Spence of Grad's is valued by others, that's great, it's a free country.

I'm not deflecting anything, Travis. I wasn't there when JSA examined that particular item but I'm sure after looking at literally thousands of autographs (both good and bad) over the years you don't always have to examine certain autographs for a long length of time to determine authenticity.

That Jeter forgery certed and sold by Todd Mueller Autographs was determined by me to be a 100% forgery in one second. All I asked was how your expert Todd Mueller determined that one Derek Jeter signature (not 150) to be authentic? Maybe someone here other than you, Travis, can answer that question.

Travis, you question JSA certing that 150 signature item. My parallel question is how Todd Mueller certed that single (not 150) Derek Jeter pathetic forgery?

Travis, you want to attack JSA that is your right here on Net54. You want to attack and bash PSA; you have that right, too. You have your agenda, Travis, and I have mine. You want to attack a company that gets it right 95% (probably higher in my opinion) that's your right, Travis. Then I will defend that company that gets it right 95% of the time and I will attack someone like Chris Morales, Forensic Investigator, whose certed autographs I have looked at for a long, long time and have yet to see one autograph that he actually got right.

You praise Drew Max for getting that Joe Louis signed bell examination correct on the Pawn Stars show, but not a peep from you about Drew Max getting the FDR Letter To Clergy wrong on the Pawn Stars show. You bash John Reznikoff for mis-identifying that Al Pacino signature, but not a word from you about Drew Max and that Bram Stoker signed Dracula book debacle on the Pawn Stars show.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Travis, since you're so intent on continuing your PSA and JSA bashing, I will ask you to do the following. Go on Ebay and find some of the PSA/JSA certed Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig and Mickey Mantle autographs that PSA and JSA got wrong and post them here. Post them here with screen shots along with your comments that PSA & JSA got them wrong. Just like I do with the Chris Morales, Drew Max, Ted Taylor and Todd Mueller certed autographs that I call out.

And you can't write that ABC and XYZ "got this and that wrong." I want you, Travis Roste to post screen shots, photos and your comments.