Price guide "what's under that rock"

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Posted By: leon

I didn't want to hijack the other Mastro thread so here goes. This is not a knock on VCP or any other guide that quotes direct sales but it has often crossed my mind that, what I think Jeff L was alluding to, might happen frequently. A card is "sold" (well, not really) in one venue and is reported on VCP or another guide....Now we have an established price...well, not really, as the "sale" wasn't a sale to start with. But we can all go look and see the price it realized and be satisfied we aren't paying more than the market value.........and this starts out as "once upon a time"....and might end the same way too. regards

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Posted By: Matt

I was leafing through some old issues of The Trader Speaks and Lew Lipsett has a column that spans several issues where he talks about instances of this kind of "price manipulation" that went on in the 70s.

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Posted By: Matt

By the way, I'm loving that in the banner advert for the MEARS auction on the top of this page, they have as one of the bullet points "No Shill Bidding!"

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Posted By: barrysloate

Even though not every reported sale actually took place, it would be impossible for VCP to try to guess whether or not a reported price is a real one. Their job is to record and report data, not to interpret it.

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Posted By: dan mckee

Auction price manipulation has been around as long as auctions have. As Barry states, not much we can do about it.

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Posted By: leon

There is no way any guide can "police" the sales. They only report them. My only reason for this thread is to at least make folks aware that just because something is in print doesn't necessarily make it so. I use VCP quite a bit but at the same time don't just look and believe, without giving it a 2nd thought. regards

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Posted By: Frank B

>>A card is "sold" (well, not really) in one venue and is reported on VCP
>>or another guide....Now we have an established price...well, not really,
>>as the "sale" wasn't a sale to start with

A card like the Gretzky Wagner wouldn't benefit from a couple
of private (but publicly announced) sales, would it?

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Posted By: Jason L

When something is "sold (well, not really)?"

are you saying that there are a fair number of shadow transactions, where a card is bought by someone friendly with the seller, and the card never actually changes hands?

just for the purposes of establishing a market value in advance of an attempt to create an actual transaction?



This house of cards is quite a racket. Next thing you're going to tell me is that State Governors try to sell Senate seats!

oh,...uh.

oh dear



well at least I can prove that I actually bought several cards at inflated prices last year,...because I have the actual cards in a safe deposit box!


The prices were real

But I have the cards!

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Posted By: leon

"are you saying that there are a fair number of shadow transactions, where a card is bought by someone friendly with the seller, and the card never actually changes hands?
just for the purposes of establishing a market value in advance of an attempt to create an actual transaction?"


Yes, that is my belief.

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Posted By: Fred C

Do most "large" private transactions involving vintage cards include some of the tougher material to obtain? I like the idea of tracking auction items because you have a better chance of seeing an actual realized price generated by true demand. Sure, there will be times when you just happen to have a couple of people kicking each other over a card and then the price settles after each of those people gets that card but at least it reflects a "demand" of more than just one collector.

I'd probably record the private sales in a data base but I wouldn't use that particular "sale" in the weighted average of a price index.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I don't see how VCP can use any private sales in their database. For one, "private" suggests the results are not going to be divulged. Second, a private sale often comprises a group of cards at a set price, so how would VCP determine the individual price of each card? Finally, private sales can be very unreliable. I can sell a card for $500 and then report I got $1000.

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Posted By: Dave Hornish

I think the use of the word "guide" is important as any type of price guide still must be interpreted by the reader or user.