USED to be REA's big fan ---not any more

[forazzurri2axz]

First of all, before a few members criticize this as being “negative”, I have run it by Leon and he
has no problem with my post as long as it is not anonymous—

An introduction to the situation is as follows::: I was the winner of the 1956 Topps set in the REA auction, all PSA 8’s with a Mays 8.5 and 30 PSA 9’s. The price was $35,000 and with 17.5% premium the total for this set was $41,125. Because I won more lots than I thought I might, I decided to sell the PSA 9’s after replacing them first with PSA 8’s and at some time sell a 100% PSA 8 set. In the two weeks following the auction , I was able to get 28 PSA 8’s, including the Mays. Only after receiving the set 2-3 weeks after the auction ( the delay was my doing in switching funds etc, not REA’s ) did I then email a few fellow collectors asking if they would be interested in upgrading some of their 8’s to PSA 9. One responded immediately and we worked out a transaction for 9 of the PSA 9’s..A few hours after I then discovered that one of the three PSA 9’s for which I had not yet found a PSA 8 The Pirates Team Card #121 , was in fact NOT a PSA 9 as the registry indicated and as REA had listed in their description of the set.(this was not part of the 9 card transaction)

A few facts about this card. It is a TOUGH card in PSA 9; it has not been indicated as being sold on VCP since 2007; it sold 4 times in 2006/2007, from $1600-2300.00. I calculated the card at a MINIMUM of $1500 plus buyers premium when I evaluated all the cards in the set. The SMR which in my opinion is a poor guide at best in general has a PSA 8 at $315 and $1500 in PSA 9. I contacted REA in regards to this problem and spoke with Dean who told me he would contact the consignor and get back to me---Here is what happened after that!!

Consignor admitted selling the PSA 9 some time ago and did not remove it from the registry
Obviously REA went by the registry since they advertised it as a PSA 9 and sent a PSA 8 to me instead
Consignor offered $1000 which I refused. When I spoke with Dean again, I was told that I paid 85% of SMR and so the card is only worth 85% of 1500.00 ---another offer was $1500 and I would return the PSA 8---I refused that since I would no longer have a complete set AND the card is worth more than that AND I also paid the buyer’s premium.

REA then told me the consignor would give me a Snider PSA 9 if I would PAY THEM $500.00 and my Snider PSA 8 in the set. VCP Snider 9 ==$1900 less my $500.00 less my PSA 8 Snider approx $300.00.I still felt that was not fair since that is an $1100 value for a card worth a lot more than that. I felt that $1500.00 was fair and I would keep the PSA 8.

REA offered to take the set back and when I explained my transaction , I was told I should have discovered THEIR error before making a transaction even if it did not involve that card. I pointed out that SMR is way off in many cases; the common PSA 9’s that sell for $250-$300 are the SAME SMR as the low pop commons that sell for $1200-$1500—that’s it’s a guide at best and it shouldn’t matter what %% I paid.

I was then given the opportunity to speak to Rob at which point I basically was told all of the above again and that if hypothetically all cards were shipped 1 grade lower than they advertised and they “refunded me in the manner I am requesting” then I would MAKE a profit of $10,000. Well, I guess that comes from the logic of 85% of SMR and I’m not smart enough to follow how all of a sudden I’m “hypothetically MAKING $10,000……I was told by Rob that he would (and this is a direct quote) “take $100.00 OUT OF MY OWN POCKET in addition to the $1500.00 and you return the PSA 8”. I lost my cool and raised my voice since it seems to me that if I spend $63,751.25 IN WINNING SEVERAL LOTS IN HIS AUCTION of which OVER $9,000 is buyer’s premium why the heck are they quibbling over $300.00----do they think my money comes from trees and his $100.00 is the ultimate sacrifice??? It seems to me that his $100.00 out of HIS pocket just might be part of MY $63,000+ that went into his pocket in the first place!!! This conversation deteriorated in “quality” at that point---I would told I was making him upset with my comments ( as if I shouldn’t have been upset by their penny-pinching?????) , that Rob had to get back to work and that he would write me out his own personal check for $300.00.

Follow-up---I did receive the $1800 after returning the PSA 8 and the person pointed out that the PSA 9 Miranda I sent in the 9 card transaction ($1250.00) was really an 8!!!!!!!!!!!!! I missed that REA sent me another PSA 8 instead of a PSA 9----one of the lowest pop PSA 9’s in the entire set missing as well. And no, I am not going back to REA about this

bill latzko

[Peter_Spaeth]

Can someone post the cliff notes version??

[T206Collector]

What are you asking for?

a) return the whole set for no money lost; or

b) the difference in value between what you thought you bought and what you did buy?

I don't think you're entitled to anything else. And if we're just talking about (b), then what is the difference between what you were offered and what you want?

[JasonL]

and there's a lot of detail there that I had trouble following in the quick time I had to scan through it, but I hope you can get some peace with this at some point.
It always baffles me when I encounter these types of customer service problems (in any industry) when a business loses the forest through the trees and the perspective of customer service becomes compromised. fighting over even $1k-2k in a $60k transaction involving a repeat customer just makes very little sense to me.

oh well. There's no end to things I don't understand, so I can't get on too high a soapbox about anything.

Best of luck with it all.

[Robextend]

That stinks Bill. No matter what the resolution was steps should have been taken to ensure all the cards were in fact the proper grade listed on the registry.

I would be frustrated too after spending so much.

Rob

[Matt]

Bill - I read the whole thing and it is upsetting. At this point, angry as you are, you should go back to REA about the other PSA 8/9 switch. Let us know what they say. I know they've lost your business, but it would be good for the rest of us to know if they are at least willing to make you whole on their mistakes.

[barrysloate]

Could this be any more complicated? If I could follow what is going on, I would gladly offer an opinion.

Hi Bill!

[rhettyeakley]

That is a frustrating story!

I had a similar thing happen to me many years back with a completely different auction house (albeit not at this scale) and from that day on I have never tried to sell or trade any cards from an auction lot (or any purchase for that matter) until the card(s) are physically in my possesion.

-Rhett

[GrayGhost]

What exactly do you think anyone here is going to do? If you have the means to spend that much money on cardboard, its your choice, but like anything else, it comes with risks. Good luck w however it comes out.

[ibuysportsephemera]

If someone spent 60k+ with me, I would try to give them great customer service..just sayin...

[Matthew H]

This shows how inaccurate set registries can be. You would think the missing Pirates team card went into another registry set. Could the same cert number be listed in two sets?

what about pop reports? When a collector cracks a card out of a PSA/SGC holder looking for an unbiased re-submit, does that add a phantom card to the report? This could make cards seem more plentiful, right?

[Robextend]

Originally Posted by GrayGhost

What exactly do you think anyone here is going to do? If you have the means to spend that much money on cardboard, its your choice, but like anything else, it comes with risks. Good luck w however it comes out.

I don't think that is fair Scott. If an auction house states I am getting a PSA 9 card and I end up getting a PSA 8, that has nothing to do with taking on risk.

A lot of money was spent and a mistake (or a couple mistakes) was made...and the resolution seems it could have gone much smoother.

[FUBAR]

I think REA should do what is right and make this right! Customer service goes along way, especially with word of mouth. It may cost REA and the consignor 3k now, but look at the type of buyer he has. 60K is some nice bank! Ive never met Robert, have only heard great things about him, but in this case, it sounds like he is dropping the ball a bit!

I had a lot of shiny UFC cards go missing in the mail.(my first ever lost auction) I contacted the seller, and even though he provided me with proof of shipping, he had a photo of the envelope, with my address, date and such on it. (i have bought other lots from him, this is how he works) When i informed him they hadn't shown up, without hesitation he re-shipped the same cards and when i opened his package this morning, there were the cards, and there was my money back with an apology letter. All this for a measly 10$ order!


NOW THAT IS CUSTOMER SERVICE!!

[FrankWakefield]

REA didn't have what they listed.

Bidder should get his money back, REA keeps the cards.

That is the Cliff Notes / Easy Button version...

[ibuysportsephemera]

I recently sold a football media guide on eBay. The customer e-mailed me that there was a small picture cut out that I missed and hadn't put into the description. He wanted to return the guide. I immediately apologized, refunded him the entire purchase price and shipping and told him to keep the guide. He was shocked that I would do this (he has a ton of feedbacks) and couldn't thank me enough. Granted this was a $20 purchase with shipping, but I didn't want to risk my 20% discount that I get being a top rated seller. I have no idea if the picture was missing or not. It seems to me that if you are going to do business on the internet, you have to be ready to stand by your product or reputation and take an occasional loss if necessary.

[chaddurbin]

from reading it seems rea did offer to take the set back but bill has already sold off some cards. after that it's just determining fair market value for individual cards, coupled that with SMR inaccuracy and you have a mess.

[jb217676]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

This shows how inaccurate set registries can be. You would think the missing Pirates team card went into another registry set. Could the same cert number be listed in two sets?

what about pop reports? When a collector cracks a card out of a PSA/SGC holder looking for an unbiased re-submit, does that add a phantom card to the report? This could make cards seem more plentiful, right?

It's impossible to have the same cert number listed in the registries of two different people. It tells you right away when you add a card to your registry if it's listed in another collector's set. If you are the new owner of a card that is still listed in a previous owners registry, PSA will remove it if you provide them with front and back scans. This happened to me a couple of times.

[autograf]

I guess I understand the frustration with the original predicament. I do think the offer(s) that REA put forth were fair. Understanding that you'd already sold cards that weren't yet in your possession, I guess getting the $1800 was the best option. Like other posters have said, the registries are only as good as the participants and the host companies willingness to make them good and they'll never be perfect. Not even close. I've always found Rob and REA to be top notch and work to the best of their abilities to rectify a problem. I don't spend that type of coin with them, so it's a frustrating problem, I'm sure. Seems like you're going to attempt to resell all of it, so it's ultimately a question of $$ lost, so hopefully the $1800 makes up for most of it.

[GrayGhost]

Rob, you are correct, especially if the card value is that much different, w an 8 or 9. I guess Im still stuck in the days when you just bought a nice card,and graded it Poor-Mint, based on you and other's observations. This grading stuff drives me nuts..haha.

[Peter_Spaeth]

"Follow-up---I did receive the $1800 after returning the PSA 8 and the person pointed out that the PSA 9 Miranda I sent in the 9 card transaction ($1250.00) was really an 8!!!!!!!!!!!!! I missed that REA sent me another PSA 8 instead of a PSA 9----one of the lowest pop PSA 9’s in the entire set missing as well. And no, I am not going back to REA about this"

So you made the same mistake REA made, not examining the cards to see that they conformed to your description, or am I misinterpreting???

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by forazzurri2axz

...REA offered to take the set back...

...take $100.00 OUT OF MY OWN POCKET in addition to the $1500.00 and you return the PSA 8...

...I would told I was making him upset with my comments ( as if I shouldn’t have been upset by their penny-pinching?????) , that Rob had to get back to work and that he would write me out his own personal check for $300.00...

Follow-up---I did receive the $1800 after returning the PSA 8 and the person pointed out that the PSA 9 Miranda I sent in the 9 card transaction ($1250.00) was really an 8!!!!!!!!!!!!! I missed that REA sent me another PSA 8 instead of a PSA 9----one of the lowest pop PSA 9’s in the entire set missing as well. And no, I am not going back to REA about this

I appreciate that you are disappointed but I think you are out of line here:

--REA made a mistake--clearly should have checked the cards not just the registry. However, people make mistakes. You caught the mistake.

--REA offered to rescind the transaction and make you whole. You said no.

--They offered you SMR for the 8. You said no.

--They offered you $100 over SMR for the 8. You got mad.

--You got $300 over SMR. You stayed mad but took it.

--You found another error. You won't go back to them with it.

I don't see where REA is in the wrong. You could have unwound the entire sale if you'd wanted and come out exactly where you were before. I don't think any seller or auctioneer has any obligation to do more than refund your purchase price if you did not receive what you agreed to buy.

I'd also note that your sale figures are pre-Great Recession and as we've been discussing on other threads prices have dropped since then.

[Jewish-collector]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

REA didn't have what they listed.

Bidder should get his money back, REA keeps the cards.

That is the Cliff Notes / Easy Button version...

Thanks Frank !!! I appreciate that.

[Robert_Lifson]

When Mr. Latzko informed us that one card was listed as a 9 but was only an 8, we immediately offered to make an adjustment that was mutually agreeable or take the set back. Errors happen and there’s not much else we can do but offer to remedy the error in one of these two manners. The SMR of the set added up to $48,950. He won the set for $41,125. The set sold for 84% of SMR. On average, each card in the set sold for 84% of SMR value. The Pirates team card lists for $1,500 in PSA 9. We offered to give him $1,500or have him keep the PSA 8 card and provide an adjustment to compensate. If we sent him $1,500, he would of course have to send back the PSA 8 card. Or he could return the set for a full refund if that was his preference. This was offered immediately. But he refused to return the set, and he didn’t want to send the card back unless we gave him $1800. It was a very difficult situation: Mr. Latzko did not feel that our adjustment solution was reasonable, AND he refused to return the lot for a full refund. He expressed that the ONLY acceptable remedy was for us to give him exactly what he dictated. And so, we decided to do exactly that: we gave him what he dictated, even though we did not think it was reasonable. We sent him what he said was the only acceptable remedy, even though there was no meeting of the minds, and the buyer refused to return the set. We gave him what he wanted. I don't know how this can be interpreted as poor customer service.

Sincerely,

Robert Lifson

Robert Edward Auctions, LLC

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by forazzurri2axz

Follow-up---I did receive the $1800 after returning the PSA 8 and the person pointed out that the PSA 9 Miranda I sent in the 9 card transaction ($1250.00) was really an 8!!!!!!!!!!!!! I missed that REA sent me another PSA 8 instead of a PSA 9----one of the lowest pop PSA 9’s in the entire set missing as well. And no, I am not going back to REA about this

bill latzko

Bill,

Just out of curiousity, since you made exactly the same mistake that REA did, on your resale lot, how did you settle it with your customer?

[LOUCARDFAN]

This is a difficult situation for both parties. Fault lies with both REA and the buyer for not checking the actual grades on the cards that were presented.

Mistakes happen as everyone is human and Rob and REA have taken a pro-active approach in dealing with the situaton at hand. In my opinion, Rob and REA has handled this with pure class and the buyer should only be upset at himself for not catching the other card before speaking with Rob. I would have checked the entire set after I saw the first card that was a mistake. I am sure that Rob would have made good on any and all cards that were misrepresented.

REA is a great and honest auction house and this will not change my mindset in the way I feel about dealing with them.

Todd

[Leon]

Just to be clear Bill and I did speak about this a few times on the phone. At no time did I ever know what auction house it was (as he never said), nor did it matter. All I told Bill was that he couldn't be anonymous (private) if he posted about it. It is a difficult situation and I am not sure REA could have done much more to make it right, than they did.

[forazzurri2axz]

Jim VB and Peter---Yes, I made a mistake by not finding the second error and without hesitation refunded $1250 to the buyer of the 9 PSA 9's

Gray Ghost--I don't expect anyone "here" to do anything--Wheter it's $60 or $60,000 spent on cardboard, it shouldn't be a risk based on incorrect information given by consignor or auction house

Tom (et al) --I had NOT sold any crds that were not in my possession. I only notified other collectors after receiving the set from REA and discovered the Pirate mistake after the 9 card transaction. The Pirate card was not part of the 9 card transaction...BTW until now I also found REA to be top notch.

REA/ROB---YOU NEVER discussed taking the set back at all--it was only brought up in about my 4th conversation with Dean and then you. I explained at that point that I could not because I had sold 9 cards before finding the mistake and was told by y'all that it was MY fault for not finding YOUR mistake before doing my transaction---those were the exact words used.


bill

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by forazzurri2axz

REA/ROB---YOU NEVER discussed taking the set back at all--it was only brought up in about my 4th conversation with Dean and then you.

bill

Bill,

I understand that this is a very frustrating situation, but this statement doesn't make much sense. It's like you're saying he NEVER discussed it EXCEPT these two times.




Mistakes happen. To all of us. You can't run an auction the size of REA and have it be 100% smooth, card for card. The real problem started here when the consignor left cards on his registry that he no longer owned. The second mistake happened when REA did not catch the consignor's mistake. The third mistake happened when you didn't catch the error either.

It seems that there's plenty of blame to go around and REA has stepped up to offer several workable solutions. Your subsequent sale eliminated one of those potential solutions, so the other options were limited.

In the end, it sounds like Rob gave in and gave you exactly what you wanted for the problem that was explained to him. You're upset with how that was handled, even though you got exactly what you wanted. AND... now you're upset with another issue that you have never even explained to them.

I realize that this is aggravating, but you could be acting a little harshly to REA in this case.

[MikeS]

Don't know how members think this wasn't REA's fault because they offered a return and addressed the buyers concerns. Fact is it's their job as an auction house to confirm everything they have in hand before sending the write-ups out to print. If they couldn't count 31 cards that weren't anything but PSA 8's, then that's more than a mix-up.....It's called laziness!!! If this were any other auction house half you guys would have been making low-blows. This lot was expensive and the buyer is probably out fees that no one sees as well (ie. bank transfer, etc.) and this would have been eliminated if REA took the extra 5 minutes to do their job. That sucks about the two cards, but it goes to show that not all houses are perfect and maybe this will wake them up for next year.

[Exhibitman]

Mike, I don't think anyone is saying REA is without fault; everyone including REA agrees that there was a mistake. People make mistakes; it's one of the enduring and endearing traits of humanity. I think the issue is really whether REA stepped up and owned its error and made it good. IMO, it did. REA offered to buy back the set. It then offered a reasonable $ adjustment based on the % of SMR on the set versus the total cost of the set. When those were rejected, ultimately, REA gave the buyer the exact figure the buyer demanded even though it was arguably a premium price on the card in question. I've had a lot worse "make goods" offered to me in the past on listing errors or lost items; what more than a full refund offer can you really expect?

[T206Collector]

1) The set had two 8s when REA said it had two 9s. Oops. Mistake. Bad REA.

2) REA offered a refund for the entire item, and when that was not acceptable, acceded to the buyer's demand for $1,800. Mistake corrected. Thanks, REA.

3) Buyer bashes REA in a public forum. Intent: hurt REA publicly.

[ElCabron]

This never would have happened if you'd stuck to bidding with Dave Kohler and SCP Auctions.

-Ryan

[Peter_Spaeth]

I think what Bill is upset about is not the end result but the fact that from his perspective he had to haggle to get there, instead of Dean just saying ok we made a mistake what can we do to make it right.

[Kawika]

Originally Posted by NoizeBringer

This never would have happened if you'd stuck to bidding with Dave Kohler and SCP Auctions. -Ryan

Oh it's you. =click=

[Matthew H]

40'000 dollars is alot of money to be spending on 1956 Topps, js.

[hunterdutchess]

You should have gotten a refund Bill. That way you could bid on the Autograph Game used Jersey Duel super Refractor red boarder 1/1 Die Cut Strasburgh RC : )

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by hunterdutchess

You should have gotten a refund Bill. That way you could bid on the Autograph Game used Jersey Duel super Refractor red boarder 1/1 Die Cut Strasburgh RC : )

He wouldn't have had enough money

[murcerfan]

flipper.

[ChiefBenderForever]

With all the cards REA gets it is easy to see how they missed this and didn't go through every card to double check, but in a business where every bid counts not sure why they didn't just take care of Bill right away, especially when he didn't get what was advertised. Is there that many collectors out there who drop 50k plus on a single auction to lose him as a bidder ? Who knows how many other auctions he bid on that added up to even more than the comissions he spent.

[sbfinley]

I'm confused, because you seem to be angry because you had to haggle to fix the mistake. The same mistake you admit to making afterwards.
Yet..

Originally Posted by forazzurri2axz

wether it's $60 or $60,000 spent on cardboard, it shouldn't be a risk based on incorrect information

You also never mention any remedy you offered to REA in the initial conversations. As a matter of fact the only offer you made to them they eventually accepted.

Judging by the the title of your post "Used to be REA's big fan..." I'm guessing that you have had positive experiences with them in the past. What gives? It's like dining out at a restaurant a dozen times with great meals and then finding a hair in the pasta the 13th outing. Would you go on yelp and pan them? Mistakes happen. I would go through that annoyance 10x over to own such a set. In the end, are you enjoying your set? To me that is all that matters.

[M's_Fan]

Just thought I'd mention that in the recent auction I bought a complete set of 1941 Sky Birds that was missing a #2, but instead had two #9 cards. Dean contacted the consignor and I quickly had the missing #2, and I returned the extra 9. Mistakes happen (and the fact that you committed the same mistake as REA demonstrates this) and REA was first class in handling it all.

I agree with most folks here that you have nothing to really complain about, REA gave you everything you wanted, and which I honestly believe is more than what any other auction house would have given you.

You could have got your money back but you sold many of the cards in your set before inspecting it, that is not REA's fault.

And the $63k didn't go in REA's pocket, it mostly went in the consignor's pockets.

A buyer and seller going off of book value to establish the price are bound to have a disagreement, only an open auction can establish the value of a card at any given time.

You should contact them about the other 8, but again, two people with adverse interests are not going to easily agree about the value.

[steve B]

I think the thing that bugs me with this stuff is that an auction selling pretty expensive stuff with plenty of prep time apparently can't be bothered to check to see if a set actually contains the cards it's supposed to have.

Seriously, it doesn't take all that long.

And how can they write the description if they haven't checked? is it typical for the consignor to write the description?

If they don't actually look, there's this Wagner I'm thinking of selling......

Steve B

[bobbyw8469]

The auction house writes the description, but apparently, with a set containing 300+ cards, they are just taking the consignors word for the grades, if they are all on the registry. The consignor sold a card but kept it on his registry to help maintain his lofty standing. From what I read, there were multiple mistakes involving this set that compounded on one another (with the 1st mistake being on the consignor).....

[PolarBear]

Two can play at this game. Just pay them in $100 bills and slip in a couple of ones. When they discover the mistake, offer to give them a fifty if they'll return the ones.

[M's_Fan]

I think the main problem here is that the buyer didn't want to return the lot for a full refund, instead he wanted top dollar for the individual card.

When you buy a complete set you usually get a discount versus buying the cards individually. This buyer wanted it both ways, to buy the complete set at a discount, and then demand REA pay for the missing card as if it was purchased individually for top dollar.

The set was sold at 85% of SMR, but the buyer was demanding the $1600-$2300 that the missing card would fetch if sold individually. Even though REA was in the right, they gave in and gave him what he wanted.

[HRBAKER]

The auction house clearly made a mistake and when notified they fixed it. I can completely understand the need for a public flogging, can't you?

[glchen]

I sympathize with Bill here. First the use of SMR for pricing is crazy. I think almost everyone agrees that SMR pricing is way off, and VCP is much better. So to say that Bill got a great deal off SMR is like all of those ebay sellers with high BINs at SMR thinking that they will sell for that amount. The other part is REA should have checked the lots and the items in the lots. Isn't that what the buyer's premium is for, besides printing that nice catalog? This lot sold for a lot of money. No reason why REA couldn't check the lot before shipping. I mean I recently sold an 80 card lot of 33 goudey's in poor condition on ebay that sold for $100. I checked each card in the lot when I listed it, and before I shipped it to the buyer to make sure it matched. REA made huge $$$ here, and they should have checked to make sure that it matched the auction description. I bought a partial Goudey set from REA in this last auction, and other than the big name cards (Ruth/Gehrig), I never even bothered to check the rest even though I spent a mere 9K on it. I figured REA had the quality control to to do that. So now I'll have to start checking in the future. In the end, I think REA tried to make it right even though Bill had to jump through hoops, and in the end, I think REA is probably still one of the better auction houses.

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by M's_Fan

When you buy a complete set you usually get a discount versus buying the cards individually. This buyer wanted it both ways, to buy the complete set at a discount, and then demand REA pay for the missing card as if it was purchased individually for top dollar.

I'm guessing the buyer would counter that if he were to try now to buy the missing card, he'd have to pay the "individual price" and get no "complete set" discount. So why shouldn't he be compensated that higher amount? After all, he thought he was getting that card in the first place.

I'm not saying who's right, just that I can understand that argument.

[Peter_Spaeth]

That is a muted response.

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

That is a muted response.

And my point is probably moot.