1869 Peck & Snyder Observation & Question

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Posted By: Andy Baran

Attached are scans of the backs of 4 different 1869 Peck & Snyder Cincinnati Red Stocking cards (3 trade cards and 1 cdv). As you can see, all of them have differences. The main observation that I noticed is that there are 2 different addresses listed for Peck & Snyder:

1.) 126 Nassau Street (2 examples)

2.) 22 Ann Street (2 examples)

I have thought of several possible reasons for these differences:

- Maybe there were 2 Peck & Snyder locations in 1869, and the cards were produced to be used at both addresses with the specific address for the location?

- Maybe Peck & Snyder's address changed during 1869, and they reflected the address change by changing the address on the cards? If this is the case, then some of the cards may be older than others.

- Maybe Peck & Snyder's address changed sometime after 1869, and they re-issued the Cincinnati Red Stockings cards with the new address? If this is the case, then some of the cards are definitely older than others.

- Some other reason that I'm not thinking about?

DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY INSIGHT?

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

I am guessing that they had more than one store location if they were large enough to have their own set of advertising cards ... but I am just guessing.

I guess we should see what is on the back of the 1868 Brooklyn Atlantics card (if anything) ... and what is on the back of the 1870 New York Mutuals card (if anything).

Those were both made by Peck & Snyder and might help us see which address is older or newer?

This shows that by 1875, Snyder was on his own at a different address:

http://vbba.org/ed-interp/1875snydercatalogue.html

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Posted By: Andy Baran

Hal,

I tend to think that there were 2 locations, each with their own specific cards. Checking the other cards won't necessarily help, since there could have been 2 locations all 3 years, but not enough surviving copies of the cards to verify this. The other cards may also have just been produced for one location. I think we need to find out the history of Peck & Snyder to get a definitive answer.

Even getting catalogs may not help, since one catalog (with one address) could have been used for both locations if there were multiple stores.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Here is something showing that in 1900, Peck & Snyder was still at the Nassau Street address.

If nothing else, this would show that they did not pack up and move from that address to the Ann Street address.

http://www.luikerwaal.com/newframe_uk.htm?/merk_divusa1_uk.htm

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Here is a scorebook from 1878 off of Runscott's page...

so in 1878, Peck & Snyder was still at Nassau Street:

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Unfortunately, my 1866 Beadle's Dime Baseball Guide does NOT have any advertisements for Peck & Snyder's in it.

That would have given us a certain address for pre-1869.

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Posted By: Andy Baran

Hal,

All of the items that you are supplying show that a certain address existed during a certain year. What they don't tell us is whether or not the other location also existed at that time.

I suppose this supports the most likely theory that there were 2 locations in 1869.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Andy:

The fact that Snyder had split off and produced his own catalog by 1875 makes me think that he had LEFT "Peck & Snyder" by that time (although the company obviously left the name unchanged).

This would be consistent with the fact that Andrew Peck is the ONLY signature on the back of the two "Nassau Street" cards that you have shown.

Maybe those were produced "after" Snyder left the company, so maybe the move to Nassau Street occurred at the time of that break-up.

Again ... ALL SPECULATION.

I am searching for any publication with a pre-1869 address for Peck & Snyder Sporting Goods.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

The Library of Congress has a Peck & Snyder catalog from 1868 listed:

http://catalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v1=1&ti=1,1&SC=Author&PID=24407&SA=Peck+%26+Snyder,+New+York.+[from+old+catalog]&SA=Peck+&+Snyder,+New+York.+[from+old+catalog]&HC=4&SEQ=20040708121458&SID=2

Is there any way to have someone go look and see what that says their adress was in 1868? Can we make an on-line request for this info?

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Posted By: Mark

If any of you live close to New York City or Albany, I'd suggest trying a main library or historical society that has access to City Directories of New York City from the 1860's / 70's. City Directories are like modern phone books, only contain much more personal information. You can track the growth and movement of companies and individuals in virtually every metropolitan area of the United States. Most major institutions will have a collection of City Directories on microfilm. It will take some searching, but much information is out there for those willing to invest the time.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

I think the answer is more simple than we thought.

I went to Yahoo Maps ... and discovered that 22 Ann Street and 126 Nassau Street are basically THE SAME PLACE!!

Apparently Peck & Snyder had a store right there at the INTERSECTION of Ann St. and Nassau St. ...

so the addresses are interchangable.

Then again ... since they apparently stuck with the "Nassau" address for decades later ... it would seem logical that the "Ann" address was the first one they tried and changed from it.

Maybe Nassau Street just became a better-known landmark to people in New York?? Or maybe the post office simply switched the official address??

It will be interesting to see if Peck & Snyder ever used the "Ann" address after 1869. I can't find it anywhere if they did.

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Posted By: Anonymous

OOPS

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Posted By: Andy Baran

Hal,

I just confirmed your theory using Microsoft MapPoint. The locations are very, very close, if not the same. Why didn't I think to try that? It makes sense that the address may have been interchangable. I thought this would take a lot longer to answer, and be much more complicated. I wonder what is at that address today??

Thanks for the help.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Surely the widow Peck still owns a little house there.

She must be about 168 years old now, but she still sells ice skates and lemon-peel baseballs.

I think I received her latest catalog last month!

In all seriousness, however ...

"Peck Slip" is only a block away from where the store was located ... so there is no doubt that the Peck family was influential in that neighborhood in those days.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

Nice to know they were one big happy family. Still, I'd like to know the address on the '68 card.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

As the owner of the Upper Left ...

I would too!!

I know that Andy owns the Lower Right ...

so Andy ... who owns the Upper Right??

Is that Leon's card?

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Posted By: Andy Baran

The upper right card is JC's. I believe the back of Leon's card is the same as Julie's. I thought these cards were supposed to be rare. Looks like Network 54 has cornered the market

By the way, I think the guy on the back is supposed to be a likeness of Andrew Peck, explaining why only he signed the card.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

I sure wouldn't claim that as MY likeness! Yuck!

Who bought the one recently off of the Robert Edwards auction??

It did not actually say "Peck & Snyders" on the back, just listed the names of the players:

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Posted By: ramram

Expansion! As his "emporium" grew he either bought a larger space nearby or expanded into adjacent space. The Ann Street location wasn't large enough so he expanded or moved nearby to the larger Nassau address. He then started producing the trade cards soon thereafter. The CDV would also be typical of the 1860's date as it generally died out by the 1870's. The larger cabinet cards and trade card size picked up about that time.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

JC and I like the way ramram thinks.

It does, after all, fit in with the absence of any other Peck & Snyder materials ever again listing the Ann Street address.

Of course, this theory could be blown out of the water if the 1868 catalog in the Library of Congress lists the "Nassau Street" address.


But then again ... ALL of the cards are GREAT and none need to be "older" or "better" than the others.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

address, then the Hal and JC cards are older, and therefore superior to Jay's and mine. Much prefer the "interchanable" address theory, for obvious reasons. Besides, I like Mr. Peck! (Lemke lists the "print on the back" card at a higher price anyway--always wondered why. Maybe he knows for sure?)

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

For what it is worth: The Lemke "Bible" shows the backs of the 1870 Peck & Snyder cards of other teams ... and they all have the "Nassau Street" address on the back.

I don't want to get into a "contest" about which cards are older.

They are ALL old ... and I can live with the "inerchangable" address theory (even if I know in my heart that it is not true).

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Posted By: Julie

Whatever it may be. I'll still prefrer the Mr. Peck card, for artistic reasons.

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Posted By: Andy Baran

I doubt that the Ann Street address is earlier, and still believe that the most likely answer is that the address was interchangeable. Postal addresses in the 1860's were not exact as they are today. They probably had a door on both streets, hence the 2 addresses.

I actually heard a theory some time ago (by Terry Knousse Sr. I believe) that the Ann Street Addressed cards could have been issued later in 1869 than the Nassau Street cards. The theory is that all Ann Street cards advertise Ice Skates (which the scans prove - at least for this small sample), and that Peck & Snyder would have no reason for advertising Ice Skates until late fall, early winter. This theory is a strong as any other, and I'm sure that Julie likes it. We could create theories for either address.

I'm not actually trying to determine which is older, since I believe that they were both were issued in the same year 1869. I just found it interesting that there are 2 different addresses, and wanted to try to figure out why. Too bad there isn't some kind of Peck & Snyder company history available. I think it's the only way we would ever know for sure.

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Posted By: ramram

The following site doesn't shed anything interesting other than to show that by 1886 Peck & Snyder was showing their address as 126, 128 & 130 Nassau Street, New York.


http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:bdxfI50aB48J:www.n3krozoft.com/dead/01.0.html+%22peck+%26+snyder%22&hl=en

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

The "store on the corner" with two different doors is indeed the most logical explanation ... especially since we know that by 1886 they owned the whole block!

We know that Peck & Snyder's had to be a pretty big store ... and the addresses are literally "around the corner" from one another.

You could go out one door, walk 30 paces to the corner, turn left and walk 40 paces ... and go back in the other door. That would be just about right for a large sporting goods store with two entrances in those days.

(Not trying to sell skates until the winter time? Ha!)

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Posted By: ramram

But why would you want to create confusion to your customers as to where you are located? As a businessman, this wouldn't make since to me.

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Posted By: Andy Baran

Hal,

I dare you to try and find an address for an Indoor Ice Skating Rink in New York (or anywhere) in 1869. Why would anyone advertise skates in the summer back then?

Maybe the skate section was located at the Ann Street entrance, and the baseball section located at the Nassau Street entrance?

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Peck was the baseball fan...

and Snyder was the skate guy.

Peck's customers entered from Nassau Street...

Snyder's entered from Ann Street.

Peck and Snyder were doomed to break up from the start!!

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

who bought the Peck & Snyder from the recent Robert Edwards auction??

Whoever bought it joins JC, Leon, Andy, Julie and me as owners of an 1869 Peck & Snyder Cincy card.

ANYONE ELSE got one ... and if so, which back?

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Posted By: Andy Baran

Hal,

The item in the RE Auction is an 1869 Cincinnati Red Stockings CDV, but it really isn't a Peck & Snyder unless it has P&S Advertising of some sort. I don't believe that Rob Lifson ever mentioned Peck & Snyder in his listing.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

but I don't doubt that it was from 1869 and is therefore a very valuable card as well.

The fact that there are names printed on the back of the card (rather than just a photographer's studio stamp) makes it better than just a CdV to me.

Agree?

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Posted By: Andy Baran

The 1869 Red Stockings CDV is an AWESOME item, just not a true Peck & Snyder.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Do we know who owns any 1868 Brooklyn Atlantic Peck & Snyder cards ... or any of the Peck & Snyder cards honoring James Creighton??

I have seen photos of the cards in Mark Rucker's book...

but was wondering if anyone here knew who owned these beauties??

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Posted By: Andy Baran

I've asked Mark Rucker several times via e-mail who owns the Creighton, and he has never answered. I'm thinking the owner probably doesn't want Mark to tell. I've never asked about the Atlantics.

If I had to guess, I'd put my money on Keith Olberman.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Maybe you can e-mail Mark and ask him to get some information for us about the BACKS of those cards and what they say.

Maybe he took photos of their backs when he had them in his studio in 1988?

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Posted By: Andy Baran

Hal,

You're welcome to get in touch with Mark if you'd like. He usually won't look up and give out this type of information, and I understand why, since he literally has hundreds of thousands of images on file.

Even with this information, it wouldn't actually prove anything since the sample is too small. However, it would still be nice to know.

By the way, I think the Creighton is blank backed.

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Posted By: Bruce Babcock

I've got one, with the "Base Ball & Skate Emporium back.

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Posted By: leon

One of those is probably not mine as the back of mine does not have the same unique markings of the one in the thread, although it is the same type as Julie's. I have a Peck and Snyder letter pertaining to an order for skates dated, New York 1/24/96....it reads

" Dear Sirs: We hold a back order for you in Dec. for a pair of 12 inch E racing skates. It is rather late in the season to say that we now have them in stock. If you decide that you can use them we will fill your order promptly. Very truly yours, Peck and Snyder S President"

This letter has the Peck and Snyder ornate logo at top and right below it it says "Cor. Beekman and Nassau Sts... New York Lock Box 2751"

I think the "Cor" in the address is for "corner of". Just thought I would add this to the equation......later

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Posted By: Julie

Any more?

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Posted By: Paul

Are any of you looking to give one away?

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

The giveaway ended in 1871.

SERIOUSLY: Anyone going to the National please try and scope out and let the Board know if you see any other 1869 Cincinnati Peck & Snyder's at the convention ... and if so ... what they said on the back.

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Posted By: leon

This isn't the thread for it but I might be willing to part with mine...in an SGC50 holder.....but it won't be a giveaway.....later

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Posted By: barrysloate

There is one collector who owns five Peck & Snyders- Cincinnati, Brooklyn, Mutuals, White Sox, and the only known Jim Creighton, but I'm sure he wishes to remain anonymous. I have seen all five in person.

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Posted By: Jimmy Leiderman

Great topic!
Barry, is the Creighton "card" blank-backed?
Leon, how about collecting P&S backs for your type registry? A Toughie!

JL

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Barry said: "There is one collector who owns five Peck & Snyders- Cincinnati, Brooklyn, Mutuals, White Sox, and the only known Jim Creighton."

All it takes is to read something like this to make my little collection seem small and trivial to me!

I am jealous of the owner (come on, give us a clue!) ... and I am even jealous of BARRY for getting to see them all in person!!!

Come on Barry ... at least find out from Mr. X what address the backs of the pre-1869 cards had on the back!!

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

My collection IS small and trivial; I don't have to read about all the Peck and Snyders to realize THAT. But I love it all the same.

Hope I'm not the only one scanning cards for James Walker!
(I did these two yesterday; thanks to Terry K and Paul Stewart. Hey Paul--his bat disappeared! Is that weird?)

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Posted By: barrysloate

To answer some of the questions: The Creighton actually has a biography of him on the back, with just a smaller ad on the bottom. He was a deceased hero at the time so they gave him the honor of the write-up. The card is trimmed and may have a bit of back damage, so as I remember there may be a little part of it difficult to read. I haven't seen it in many years. It used to be Mark Rucker's so I saw it many times at his house. The new owner is a close friend of mine but I probably haven't seen the back since Mark sold it in 1995.
The back of his Cincinnati is the same as the one Julie has- I know because I sold it to him. I also owned the one Julie has at one time- and I believe she is aware of this. Over the years I have handled about 5 Cincinnatis, plus a Chicago, a Mutuals, and a Philadelphia Athletics. I've seen two Brooklyns but never had a chance to own one. I've also seen a photocopy of the 1870 Lowells, and know it exists, but never saw it in person.
As far as the owner, I know he reads the board, so he is free to identify himself if he chooses. In 2005 the Smithsonian is publishing a coffee table book on great collections; he and I even wrote an article for it together on collecting 19th century, so at that time he will be better known. He owns the best 19th century historical collection in existence, but prefers to keep a low profile. He's not a hermit, and is happy to show his collection( and some of you know who he is). But it just isn't my place to reveal his name. Please don't take it personally

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Now I am looking forward to the book!

Make sure to let all of us know when it hits the press.

I am also glad to know that someone as knowledgeable and with such an extensive collection is a member of this board ... even if he chooses to remain silent!

As long as he knows...

that he needs to contact ME FIRST whenever he feels the need to part with his stuff!!!! (OK Barry, I will let you take a finder's fee)

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Posted By: barrysloate

Sorry, I didn't completely answer all the questions. Re: the backs of the others, and I'm doing this by memory- I think the Philadelphia and Mutuals had the sporting goods guy, although on the Mutuals the ad was green. There is a Philadelphia in the Spalding collection and it has the ice skating ad, although it is badly trimmed. The White Sox had a unique ad, with only text and no pictures. Again, I'm doing this from memory, so please forgive if something here is in error. I don't remember any of the addresses, so I assume they were all Nassau Street.
By the way, in the Halper collection there was a beautiful photograph of the Peck & Snyder storefront (this same major collector purchased it) and it didn't appear it was on a corner, as some have speculated. There seemed to be establishments on either side. So it is simply possible they moved over the years, as businesses often do. I don't know the date of that photo.