Babe Ruth?

[thetruthisoutthere]

I'm curious what the members here think of this Babe Ruth?


Ruth-Auction.jpg

[Bpm0014]

Once again, no expert whatsoever, BUT I don't like the "e", and it looks like the "u" was done twice (the second part of the "u"). Like it didn't come up high enough, and they added some ink to the top. And the "h" is obviously atypical (but could be that way because it was signed in a hurry). I'd say 80/20 it's not good. For whatever it's worth...

[gnaz01]

Originally Posted by Bpm0014

Once again, no expert whatsoever, BUT I don't like the "e", and it looks like the "u" was done twice (the second part of the "u"). Like it didn't come up high enough, and they added some ink to the top. And the "h" is obviously atypical (but could be that way because it was signed in a hurry). I'd say 80/20 it's not good. For whatever it's worth...

I think Chris already knows the answer

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by gnaz01

I think Chris already knows the answer

Of course I do.

[David Atkatz]

More games.
(And before you comment, no, I'm not gonna play.)

[bender07]

When a Kurt Cobain thread on a primarily sports autograph forum is the most interesting one, you know we're in trouble.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

More games.
(And before you comment, no, I'm not gonna play.)

This is my concern.

http://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com...scott-auction/

My concern about the above Babe Ruth was relayed to Huggins & Scott a week ago.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

More games.
(And before you comment, no, I'm not gonna play.)

I didn't think you would.

Didn't you write "Nice pickup. The autograph book looks good" on the below thread.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=162167

As for my "Glass Houses" thread, it was meant for one person. I knew I'd be criticized for it. But it's what I do.

[jgmp123]

Chris,

What was Huggins response? I'd be hard pressed to believe that the stub is even real..

[travrosty]

well, if you dont like the ruth, you got sgc to blame. you know, that company with tons of autograph authentication experience, authentication and slabbing autographs for 8 dollars apiece and they won't tell you who authenticates their autographs.

Mr. Root is a member here, why don't you invite him on this thread to explain this authentication? for the record, i am not a ruth expert so i dont have an opinion on this, but i am sure he will come right on here and he can explain it to your satisfaction.

so i guess sgc autograph authentication gets instantly listed now on auction sites? nobody else can get in but sgc now joins psa and jsa because they have so much experience authenticating autographs, a whole 8 weeks now?

[GrayGhost]

For all the guys fighting their little personal wars on here..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tCfFEMqgmQ;)

[jgmp123]

The Ruth auto has been certified by JSA and SGC. I don't know either way on the autograph itself, but the condition that stub is in raises suspicions to me.

I went to some of the NCAA games the other night and I don't think the corners on my tickets were that sharp prior to the games even starting...

[travrosty]

why pick on an sgc encapsulated item when a jsa encapsulated item wouldnt get shown here even though root worked for jsa? as soon as he jumps ship and goes to sgc, then show the sgc item and say its bad? it has jsa loa but its slabbed by sgc and thats what people see. if it was jsa alone, then it wouldnt be shown here, i guarantee it.

why isnt jsa under the same scrutiny by some? the authenticator is the same, just different company. i guess some companies get protection and can do no wrong. root got thrown under the bus now that he doesnt work for protected company east coast anymore?

i am for treating them all equally, if its bad psa, jsa , sgc so what? i have never seen chris show a bad jsa item before, and he starts with a sgc slabbed item? now that it has a jsa loa, let's break precedent and chris can now start showing bad jsa items now. it's okay, we don't mind.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

This is my concern.

http://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com...scott-auction/

My concern about the above Babe Ruth was relayed to Huggins & Scott a week ago.

what did they say? nothing? why not? ask to be their babe ruth guy.

[jgmp123]

Originally Posted by travrosty

well, if you dont like the ruth, you got sgc to blame. you know, that company with tons of autograph authentication experience, authentication and slabbing autographs for 8 dollars apiece and they won't tell you who authenticates their autographs.

Mr. Root is a member here, why don't you invite him on this thread to explain this authentication? for the record, i am not a ruth expert so i dont have an opinion on this, but i am sure he will come right on here and he can explain it to your satisfaction.

so i guess sgc autograph authentication gets instantly listed now on auction sites? nobody else can get in but sgc now joins psa and jsa because they have so much experience authenticating autographs, a whole 8 weeks now?

Travis,

In Chris' defense, the article he posted from Sports Collectors Daily mentioned nothing about the JSA letter. You have to actually go out to the Huggin's and Scott site to see that it has a JSA letter. Get all the facts before you attempt to start another one of "those" threads....

[travrosty]

michael root is a net54 member, why try to embarrass him with this thread, chris?

i have been told for years to contact the companies and personnel behind the scenes and work with them to rectify any problem. why don't you just pm or contact Root and ask him about this autograph, instead of just trying to post it here and embarrass him and smear?

now that he is not jsa anymore, he is fair game now, like global? what's the deal? Why post this autograph as a setup and then knock a man down when Root is just trying to do the best he can. You could have contacted him privately and worked with him and huggins and scott and maybe come to a conclusion instead of airing out the dirty laundry here and try to embarrass the man.

And why don't you do that to Spence or Grad? Why just SGC?

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by jgmp123

Chris,

What was Huggins response? I'd be hard pressed to believe that the stub is even real..

James and all,
Interesting...

FWIW, I would not trust this to be a real Ruth 700th HR ticket.

I personally have not seen vintage Tigers tickets that have been stamped with a date. In fact, as a baseball ticket collector of over 40 years, I will tell you that I do not recall EVER seeing a Tigers stamped date ticket prior to 1969. I have, however, seen lots of emergency tickets like the one featured in this auction with designations like Game X, Game K, etc.

I do recall seeing a genuine printed date ticket to Ruth's 700th HR. At least one exists in the hobby. As I recall it has an uneven tear at the perforation, almost appearing to have a "fang" shaped tear....

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by jgmp123

The Ruth auto has been certified by JSA and SGC. I don't know either way on the autograph itself, but the condition that stub is in raises suspicions to me.

I went to some of the NCAA games the other night and I don't think the corners on my tickets were that sharp prior to the games even starting...

Where did JSA cert that Ruth?

[jgmp123]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

Where did JSA cert that Ruth?

Go to the Huggins and Scott website and you will see the full LOA there from JSA. You can match the cert # with the JSA site and view the same picture you have posted at the beginning of this forum.

[jgmp123]

Here you go Chris...

[David Atkatz]

Uh Oh!

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by jgmp123

Here you go Chris...

Thank you, James.

I am disappointed that Spence certed that.

If I recall correctly, PSA rejected that Babe Ruth awhile back.

It's not authentic.

[jgmp123]

Very disappointing indeed. Someone is going to lose A LOT of money...

[chaddurbin]

i always thought it'd be easier to authenticate bigger names like ruth, mantle, gehrig, williams etc for people in the know because those get the most scrutiny, they have most examplars and authenticators study those sigs the most because they're the bread and butter, or am i wrong? maybe the forgers are getting so good....

like in cards you can look at a t206 or cracker jack and tell within 2 seconds if it's a fake...because you see them probably 100x more than some of the other obscure issues.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Uh Oh!

David, care to join me in sitting back and watching this unfold??

Ken

[jgmp123]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

i always thought it'd be easier to authenticate bigger names like ruth, mantle, gehrig, williams etc for people in the know because those get the most scrutiny, they have most examplars and authenticators study those sigs the most because they're the bread and butter, or am i wrong? maybe the forgers are getting so good....

like in cards you can look at a t206 or cracker jack and tell within 2 seconds if it's a fake...because you see them probably 100x more than some of the other obscure issues.

Sometimes you see an item (like the example here) that you just want to believe so bad that its real. I would love to know that a signed ticket stub from Babe Ruth's 700 home run game exists...

[thetruthisoutthere]

The truth is, I was hoping that Huggins & Scott would have pulled their listing by now.

[jgmp123]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

David, care to join me in sitting back and watching this unfold??

Ken

Can we lock the thread before Travis sees it....

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

David, care to join me in sitting back and watching this unfold??

Ken

Count me in, Ken!

[thetruthisoutthere]

Sorry to disappoint you guys, but the unfolding is over.

I just hope that Huggins & Scott does the right thing.

[David Atkatz]

Do you really think they're gonna pull a JSA-certed Ruth, Chris?
I got ten bucks that sez they won't.

[mighty bombjack]

Yeah, no way Huggins and Scott pulls that down. JSA has given their opinion, so someone is going to pay big bucks for it. H&S wants their cut and they will get it.

And the person who pays based on JSA's opinion only will get what they pay for.

[ss]

I disagree. Huggins & Scott will do the right thing. They are stand up guys. Or they will come on and say why they disagree - which is their right.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by ss

I disagree. Huggins & Scott will do the right thing. They are stand up guys. Or they will come on and say why they disagree - which is their right.

I think that Huggins and Scott is as quality an auction house as there is. But JSA is who they use and they have given an opinion, one that will be profitable for the house. What reason do they have to believe a message board? Maybe they will listen to the more respected people here, but I would be surprised.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

I think that Huggins and Scott is as quality an auction house as there is. But JSA is who they use and they have given an opinion, one that will be profitable for the house. What reason do they have to believe a message board? Maybe they will listen to the more respected people here, but I would be surprised.

+1

Once an auction house has decided they will use JSA and/or PSA, that's that - they are paying them to be the experts. No matter how much they respect your opinion, the best you can hope for is for them to go re-confirm with the offending authenticator, and you know what the answer will be. I have already been through this process, and my opinion of the auction house in question dropped about 50%.

[ss]

Well, we know they read these posts so we will see. I hope I'm right; it will disappointing if they do not do the right thing.

[gnaz01]

$3500 already

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Do you really think they're gonna pull a JSA-certed Ruth, Chris?
I got ten bucks that sez they won't.

Well, we can only hope.

I am very disappointed with JSA.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Count me in, Ken!

What kind of beer do you guys like?

[travrosty]

only now he gets disappointed with jsa?

i found that boat about 4 years ago.

[Runscott]

Travis, it's all personal opinion. Someone will endorse something that most others are certain is a forgery, and support the TPA that authenticated it, but then when they disagree with the TPA, they are disappointed.

We all follow that model.

What I don't understand is people being disappointed in an auction house for not pulling a TPA-endorsed forgery. Once the house has decided to use a particular TPA, that TPA is their expert. You either support the TPA's decisions, or you stop using the TPA. Telling a supposed 'expert' that they are wrong, by pulling an item from your auction, isn't going to happen - it would be a bad precedent.

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by travrosty

only now he gets disappointed with jsa?

i found that boat about 4 years ago.

This may be hard for you to believe, but it is possible for some people to be disappointed in a decision someone else makes without completely condemning them, calling them incompetant at every turn, ranting like a lunatic ad nauseum, conjuring countless inane analogies, turning every thread into a hate-filled diatribe, etc. etc.

Just sayin'

[shelly]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

This may be hard for you to believe, but it is possible for some people to be disappointed in a decision someone else makes without completely condemning them, calling them incompetant at every turn, ranting like a lunatic ad nauseum, conjuring countless inane analogies, turning every thread into a hate-filled diatribe, etc. etc.

Just sayin'

Don't you think it is time just to make belive he is not there.

[Westsiders]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

This may be hard for you to believe, but it is possible for some people to be disappointed in a decision someone else makes without completely condemning them, calling them incompetant at every turn, ranting like a lunatic ad nauseum, conjuring countless inane analogies, turning every thread into a hate-filled diatribe, etc. etc.

Just sayin'

I completely get that all of these TPA's are fallible...even the big 2.

But what I don't understand as of yet (since I'm fairly new to the industry), is the poor quality of some of the forgeries that are being certed (particularly the high end autos). Some of these are so bad, that the company that issued the cert is the only one claiming them be authentic.

Is it the fact that so many Ruth's/Gehrig's/Cobb's are submitted to the big 2, that some very bad versions slip through the cracks? If that's the case, I would argue that I deserve much better service for my $200 authentication fee. I've submitted Ruth auto's at national events, and on average, I have an answer within 30 minutes....which would equate to $400 per hour. At that rate, bad versions shouldn't slip through (but I do understand a well executed forgery occasionally getting through).

And don't get me wrong, I have no problem with paying the fee...because as a little guy, I need the cert and can recoup that fee in the sale price.

Then again, maybe I'm completely off base, and the big 2 have exemplars of atypical Ruth's/Gehrig's/Cobb's that no one else is privy to.

[David Atkatz]

The big two don't have anything that "no one else is privy to."

[Westsiders]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

The big two don't have anything that "no one else is privy to."

That's my point...

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by shelly

Don't you think it is time just to make belive he is not there.

+1

[hugginsandscott]

Fellas:
I just went through the thread and I apologize for not weighing in earlier. Here are some facts surrounding this:

There is a back story to this piece that also needs to be told. The ticket came from a gentleman in the Detroit, MI area who was gifted the ticket from a woman who attended the game with her father at Navin Field. Following that game, her and her father were at The Fisher Building in Detroit where Babe Ruth was doing a radio interview and the woman was sitting next to Ruth's wife. They got to talking and the woman asked if Ruth would sign the ticket stub from the game that she attended where he hit his 700th home run. He obliged the request. The woman held the ticket until 1992, where she gave it to our consignor, as a gift.

Both the ticket and the autograph were authenticated prior to it being encapsulated by JSA and SGC (independent of each other).

Today, James Spence was at our offices doing an authentication. I had Bill Huggins pull the ticket and show it to him again, for a second opinion, along with the concerns set forth. After a thorough examination with loop and his exemplar file, Jimmy was again 100% certain that his original opinion was correct - this is an authentic Ruth.

We also showed it to SGC's ticket authenticator again, who also was 100% sure of his original opinion of the authenticity of the ticket stub.

I also personally spoke to the consignor again today, just to verify the facts of the story. The consignor is NOT in our hobby and is not a collector of sports memorabilia - just a baseball fan who lived near this lady and prior to her passing, she gave it to him. He has also offered to speak to anyone who would like any more details of the story. If you would like his name and number, email me privately, and I will get you the contact information.

Thanks
Josh Wulkan
Vice President
Huggins and Scott Auctions
1-866-462-2273
josh@hugginsandscott.com

[David Atkatz]

FWIW, I believe the signature is good, as well.

[hugginsandscott]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

James and all,
Interesting...

FWIW, I would not trust this to be a real Ruth 700th HR ticket.

I personally have not seen vintage Tigers tickets that have been stamped with a date. In fact, as a baseball ticket collector of over 40 years, I will tell you that I do not recall EVER seeing a Tigers stamped date ticket prior to 1969. I have, however, seen lots of emergency tickets like the one featured in this auction with designations like Game X, Game K, etc.

I do recall seeing a genuine printed date ticket to Ruth's 700th HR. At least one exists in the hobby. As I recall it has an uneven tear at the perforation, almost appearing to have a "fang" shaped tear....

Here is a listing of other Tigers ticket stubs. You can see there are a couple of stamp-dated 1934 Tigers ticket stubs in this lot.