PSA is an embarrassment to pre-war grading!

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Posted By: dan mckee

Check this out, I enjoyed this one! What a company! What quality! What a bunch of IDIOTS!!




http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3278362041&category=31721

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

on a holder it wanted to!

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Posted By: Kenny Cole

Or, it could be something like an E-120. I dunno. PSA clearly knows more than I do. Just another reason why I don't like graded cards.
Sincerely

Kenny Cole (please keep my identity secret so that bad people don't try to come into my house and steal stuff that isn't there, force me to shoot them, and just cause me a bunch of trouble)

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Posted By: Kevin Cummings

Can't argue the point about the grading company, but it doesn't say much for the seller's or buyer's knowledge of vintage cards either, does it?

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Posted By: Anonymous

OK, I give. What's wrong with the card/grade?

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Posted By: petecld

Good point.

If the high bidder needs the card on the holder does it still count towards his registered set?

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Posted By: brian p

The card is identified as a 1932 US Caramel card, when it is a 1921 (or 1922?) American Caramel Card. Frisch is in both sets, so this explains how the cotton candy graders at this company made the mistake (that, and a complete lack of knowledge of the vintage cards they are grading).

Brian

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Posted By: brian p

Why in the heck is this card already over $230.00?

Brian

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Posted By: bimmy

oh my god, psa made an error! lord knows we havnt seen this before! those guys are such idiots they dont know what '32 caramel looks like!

give me a break.

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Posted By: runscott

as you stated, this certainly does provide more evidence that they are idiots, but "idiot" is kind of a strong word - I'm sure that some of their graders are knowledgeable about vintage cards, just not as high a percentage as employed by the other major grading companies.

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Posted By: Julie

card listed on the holder!

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Posted By: JC

It's over 230.00 because it's a rare mis labelled card from PSA... I have never owned one of these but I have seen them from time to time on Ebay. Maybe before buying this rare mis-labelled card we should contact the seller to make sure he has not cracked out the real McCoy.

I think if PSA sold cards direct on Ebay what would their feedback be? They should be judged by each decade as the knowledge of the collector goes up as the cards get older

PSA 2000-Up 99.5 Power seller
PSA 90's 98.5 Power Seller
PSA 80's 96.5 Power Seller
PSA 70's 95.2 Power Seller
PSA 60's 92.1 Power Seller
PSA 50's 89.8 Power Seller
PSA Pre-war Suspended and flying under a new name!

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Posted By: jay behrens

bimmy, you are looking like a PSA apologist. Do these "look, PSA screwed up again" threads get a bit tiresome? Yes. But this is well deserving of it's own thread because the card listed on the label doesn't remotely resemble the card in the holder.

You can shrug off typos, but repeated errors like this just prove how pathetic PSA is when it comes to vintage cards.

Jay

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Posted By: warshawlaw

Not even in the same decade. And the card even says American Caramels on the back!

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Posted By: bimmy

"bimmy, you are looking like a PSA apologist."

whats going on here mccarthy? maybe i should be hiding the fact that i am not extremely critical of psa so i wont be blacklisted from this board. im not a fan of e cards but i suspect this might be a 1922 american caramel. and i dont know how psa makes their labels for cards but to me it seems that the explanation that psa accidentaly slipped somewhere along the line and used a 1922 label instead of 1932 one is much more reasonable than them mistaking a 1922 for a 1932. psa makes mistakes labeling occasionaly, hermansk error, this one (which is the first of its kind ive seen), etc. of course psa should be held responsible and the errors should be pointed out but to call them idiots because of a mistake seems overly malicous.

i am not a big fan of psa, i prefer sgc (but will/do buy psa) but i think to call them idiots is a bit much. i can vaguely remember when someone pointed out an sgc mistake and no one called them idiots, infact most understood how the mistake could be made. psa grades WAY more cards then sgc, mistakes are made.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Volume is not an excuse. Volume should mean that they are far more familiar with the cards, rather than making ridiculously obvious errors that could be caught if the label was double checked for accuracy.

Jay

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Posted By: bimmy

so youre expecting a 0%, error free company? be reasonable. volume isnt the excuse, its human error. familiarity with a given card doesnt account for human error. psa has graded...what...houndreds of thousands of cards? millions? mistakes are bound to happen.

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Posted By: jay behrens

a typo is human error. Identifying a 1922 e121 American Caramel card as a 1932 US Caramel goes beyond human error. Calling the person or persons involved idiots, is probably justafied and they ahve no business handling and grading vintage cards.

If this was an isolated incident, I might write it off as human error, but the preponderance of errors like this goes beyond human error and moves towards the realm of incompetance in the field of vintage cards.

Jay

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Posted By: runscott

I for one am very glad that you joined the board discussions - very amusing stuff.

Bill - please - I don't care who this guy is - please let him stay.

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Posted By: bimmy

whats a typo then? why cant typing a 3 in the place of a 2 be a typo. i work in a biotech lab where we have to label a lot of vials and i have seen mislabeled vials, just an accidental 1 number difference. my situation is by no means identical to a card grading company but i can certainly have an understanding of the problem. if a grader can not identify a 32 caramel, which i find highly unlikely, then this mislabeling should be repeated. show me a couple more examples and i'll join in with the "their idiots" chant.

as for scott, whats up? one minute you agree with me that using "idiots" is a bit strong, next youre agreeing with jay and saying my opinion is comical. i dont claim to be wise or nearly as informed as most on this board. but i do believe my posts on this matter were a lot more productive than "what a bunch of idiots". i guess i was wrong in thinking that this board would not have its fair share of childish posts.

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Posted By: Anonymous

bimmy, are you clueless? Let me make this as clear as possible so I don't confuse you anymore. If the label said "1932 American Caramel e121" I would write it off as a typo. Given that the label says "1932 US Caramel" a completely different set of cards that bears no resembles to the card in the holder, this would be gross stupidity on the part of the person identifying the cards and the person that is double checking the info, if such a person exists.

This will conclude today session of let's educate bimmy.

Jay

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Posted By: jay behrens

somehow I got logged out even though I haven't left the site.

Jay

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Posted By: Todd (nolemmings)

It's not a simple slip from 1922 to 1932. Not only was PSA ten years off, they assigned a number for a card that has none (comes from an unnumbered set), they mistook a black and white card for a card from a colored set, and, as Warshawlaw noted, they identified US Caramel when the card clearly states American Caramel. A remarkable gaffe, wouldn't you agree?
Todd

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Posted By: bimmy

sorry professor but i was thinking that the problem went wrong with the data entry. im just assuming here but psa labels are probably made from a computer database of cards they grade, instead of typing in 1922, the person typed 1932, up came the frisch info and bingo, error made. the person could have made the typo or had a momentary lapse. iam oversimplifying a bit, but you get my point. if the person did look at the card and know (think) it to be a 1932 caramel and label it such, why would the person attach the number #30 to it? he would either have the number memorized, or have to look it up...maybe on the computer and hence the error.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Your preset data theory cannot be correct since we have seen tons of examples where they got the year wrong but the card set right.

Jay

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Posted By: bimmy

on which cards? did they label a 1910 obak as 1911? the fact is if they honestly thought this was a 1932 caramel, there would be more mislabeled 32's and 22's.

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Posted By: runscott

There are several steps in the "grading life" of a card, and multiple sets of eyes look at each one. This makes it virtually impossible for errors like this one and the Hermansk, which occur at PSA. Face it - this is blatant. To me it isn't an issue of whether or not the grader honestly thought the label was correct - it's an issue of the fact that this error made it out the door. How many people looked at it first? I'm guessing "1".

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Posted By: jay behrens

I realize you are new here, so I'll cut you some slack on that. There use to be a lot of typo posted and those haved stopped becuase those are legit mistakes that can be attributed to the slip of a finger. This slab however, and others like it that have gotten out, is inexcusable.

Jay- waiting for the next installment of Pigs Fly Out My Butt

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Posted By: Todd (nolemmings)

It is possible that once "1932" was typed, the other info kind of automatically followed. Still, seems to me that, since neither the 1932 US Caramels or the 1922 American Caramels has a copyright or other date on the back, the grader would have to refer to a resource in order to even know what year to type in the first place, and having looked at that resource, could easily see that the two sets are not remotely similar. In fact, to conduct a search for an unknown year, presumably the grader would type in the manufacturer (american caramel) and would have seen that no cards were issued by that manufacturer in 1932. If he searched by player, then he was a pinhead to select the 1932 set, when that set is numbered and the card he is looking at is not.

By contrast, if the typist knew from first-hand knowledge that the card was a 1922 e120 and simply mistyped 1932, then he was incredibly sloppy in not noticing the error. Also, I have to agree with the other posters that PSA has other examples where the set was right but the year wrong. Finally, as noted, if more than one person is looking at this card, it would never have gone out the door, or, if it did, the incompetence would be even that much more pronounced.

Any way you cut, there is questionable quality control at best at PSA, and I grow tired of this repeated mantra about mechanical errors as a natural result of grading so many millions of cards.

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Posted By: marty

With all of the discussion of typos, I have not seen any comments about a typo with the number grade with any company. I know of people that entered cards on the PSA Set Registry and were told that the card did not have the grade that PSA showed. PSA required a scan of the card, not personal inspection to have their data base changed. If someone can make a new flip on the Rose card that was a duplicate, could they not more easily make a new flip of an existing cert # with a new grade and have PSA correct their data base also? Just a thought.

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Posted By: bimmy

YES... jay, scott, todd youre starting to see how im thinking here.

Scott – exactly, if psa had several people looking at the card and finished slab this wouldn’t have happened. But im guessing, like you, only one person looked at the card, the grader who made the mistake.

Jay – i agree…though psa does have an excuse, theyre cheap and limit quality control! Psa, if they saw or were informed of the auction, should have emailed the seller saying to send the card in and they would correct it and send it back, at psa’s expense. Of course psa would have taken forever to relabel and holder the card, but that’s another issue.

Todd – “By contrast, if the typist knew from first-hand knowledge that the card was a 1922 e120 and simply mistyped 1932, then he was incredibly sloppy in not noticing the error.” Precisely the mistake I think happened.

Psa has several problems but to think that their grader actually thought a 22 caramel was a 33 would be too scary. I’ve only been collecting pre war cards for 7 years or so now and at least 6 years ago I knew what a 32 caramel looked like, and I never have been a fan of or collected caramel cards. To think someone employed at psa doesn’t have this basic knowledge is, well, as I said before, scary. Im only hoping someone doesn’t auction of a Delong in a 34 goudey holder, that I couldn’t explain.

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Posted By: fkw

GOOD POST!! Maybe one day PSA will actually get embarrassed by these foolish and avoidable pickle headed mistakes. What a complete joke!!! PSA sucks, and quality control does not exist in that company!!!

The 2 sets R328 and E120 are night and day in design, size, color, etc.! The only thing that is similar between the two sets is the last digit in the year, a "2" duh? E120s (and E121) is the most well known set from the 1920s, even vintage newbees should know the set. I can see making a slight mistake from time to time between sets like T206, T213-1 and T213-2, etc. when they sort of look the same, are related, or are made by the same company. But.... There is NO EXCUSE for this mental (no brains or common sense) error, and this garbage should never ever leave PSA!!! Where is the quality control????? Do they give employees bong breaks every hour??? If PSA was smart (dream on) they would buy back all of this garbage to avoid these types of message board posts/articles...... It just Cant be good for business!! Its funny though fkw

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Posted By: dan

If they hired a grader that knew pre-war, he wouldn't need a resource, he would know it. Errors would be a heck of alot more at PSA if cards were submitted w/o identification making the graders have to identify them. Then you would really see some laughs when those IDIOTS try to identify cards on their own.

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Posted By: James Verrill

I realize my opinions are subjective - and I encourage folks to accept them as such. But, my thoughts are...

I deal extensively with both PSA and SGC, both in a business capacity (www.baseballvintage.com), and in a personal one (two of my sub-collections are graded cards).

I find one very big difference between PSA and SGC: SGC seems to want to work hard to correct mistakes and improve the quality of their service and product, and PSA seems to want to deny they make mistakes and simply expect people to live by their "absolute" standard of misinformation.

I am sorry, but I am just tired of getting back T206 Mordecai Brown portrait cards from PSA that are inaccurately labelled "Cubs on shirt". I have complained to PSA about this two dozen times. Why don't they already know that Brown's uniform says "CUBS" on it in the portrait card, but that it is a different variation from the "Cubs on chest" variation? And, why can't they be educated about this? (they continue making the same error) Doesn't this indicate that they are not familiar or comfortable with the product they are analyzing? Still, every time I get a group of cards back with this variation, the card is usually mislabeled. I have literally submitted over 50 of these M. Brown portrait cards, and I am willing to bet half of them have come back labelled wrong. That is not just an error - human or not, it is a recurring problem - which nobody at PSA seems willing or able to correct. The problem has certainly been identified - this board is always full of complaints about mislabeled cards - and many of these concerns have been addressed directly to PSA. Still, the problems recur, and we (the consumer) are supposed to either accept this, or not.

SGC is by no means perfect. But, the difference I find is this - SGC is willing to accept responsibility for their errors. They seem genuinely interested in having their level of service appear marginally better each new time you deal with them. I have never had SGC refuse to work with me on any issue - and I have presented them with many complicated ones. All I have to do is call, and I can work with graders, managers, marketing directors - whomever. And, maybe this is merely a perception - but, isn't that what effective customer service is about? A positive perception?

When it comes right down to it, the entire process is subjective, and the people involved are human, thus flawed. That is true right across the board - PSA, SGC - BVG, whomever. But, the important distinction - shouldn't a company be poised to accept feedback from their customer and integrate that feedback in to improving the level of service provided? How else could a company consider itself prepared to handle growth?

James Verrill

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Posted By: slacks

James:

I think your feelings are shared by a lot of the posters on this board. I appreciate your thoughtful articulation of the difference in attitude between the grading companies.

Given your concerns and experience with PSA, can you explain why you continue to submit vintage cards to them?

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Posted By: Mike

I am not a vintage collector, I do collect 1950-1960 cards. I sent this card (and several others) to PSA for grading and received them back last week. Within several hours of listing the card on ebay, I received several emails saying that PSA goofed. Since I was unsure as to what was happening, I emailed PSA on Monday asking them to look at the auction and let me know if there was a problem with the year of the card or the grade. I also emailed my bidders letting them no of a possible PSA error. I still have not received an answer to this email to PSA. On Tuesday of this week, I called the PSA 800 number and told them of the contoversy my auction was creating. The customer service rep took the auction number and 1-2 minutes later told me that the card was cataloged correctly and the grade was correct. Several of the emails I have received sugested I contact a Mr. Mike Baker who is evidently widely respected in the grading card industry. I talked to Mr Baker on Wed and he told me that PSA goofed. I told him that I had talked to PSA customer service and he said that I should call and talk to a Mr. Joe Orlando, president of PSA at extension 170. I left a voicemail for Joe Orlando on Wed and have received no response. Finally this morning someone notified me of this thread and I have seen jpeg images of the cards in question which have confirmed to my satisfaction that PSA goofed.

I am going to cancel the auction and have decided to relist the auction for the Frisch card in its current PSA holder and indicate that it is PSA error. Several people have mentioned this is one of PSA's biggest blunders and they want the card in the current holder.

My lesson from this is that when i want cards graded in the future I will use SGC or GAI. I can accept that PSA made a mistake, people are human. What I find hard to swallow is that they confirmed that the card was correct on the phone and I have received no responses to email or follow up phone calls.

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Posted By: runscott

1. As you pointed out, Customer Service. It is generally excellent with SGC, although admittedly I received no response to my email complaining about slow delivery times, and their sending my "La Mallorquina" back with the simple note "SGC does not grade Mallorquinas" was a bit disappointing (but I did get a refund voucher).

2. Follow-up on prolems - SGC will ALWAYS follow-up and rectify the situation. The way they are handling Greg's E95 Cobb is typical of their desire to improve (although I'm still hugely disappointed in the blunder).

3. Quality - in general, you just don't see as high a percentage of these blunders from GAI and SGC, although this morning I spotted an SGC-slabbed t206 Miller Huggins "Hands at waist". His hands are indeed in a position that would work well at his waist, but they're actually at his mouth on the card in question.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

I talked to Scott the other day about my submition and let him know that the biggest concern this board has with SGC is there slow service. He informed me that most of the problem lies in getting the parts for the holders from there supplies.

For what that's worth that's what i was told.

Lee

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Posted By: petecld

I've had "issues" with SGC delivery in the past but I'm happy to say I received my last submission yesterday - right on time.

Thank you

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Posted By: dan

Hi Mike and thanks for writing! PSA confirmed it because they do not know what it is! This is a perfect example, a 1950s 60s collector like yourself comes across an older card. You mail it in to the "EXPERTS" for a grade and IDENTIFICATION. The problem is that you are expecting correct identification from people who know less about pre-war cards than my 6 year old daughter! This has been my argument all along. They do not hire knowlegable people in the fields they are grading in. Yes the shiny trash and the vintage 50s and 60s cards they can ID and grade. The old stuff, forget it. The rating scale in this thread above is perfect! Dan.