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  #101  
Old 05-26-2018, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
That's rational.
Good packaging is worth a $40,000 premium
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Last edited by Bored5000; 05-26-2018 at 01:56 PM.
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  #102  
Old 05-26-2018, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
So are you saying 100K for an autographed rookie would be rational?
It would be interesting to see what a psa 10 card and auto grade would sell for. I'm not sure it would be any more than the non auto.
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  #103  
Old 05-26-2018, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Bored5000 View Post
Good packaging is worth a $40,000 premium
And one can only imagine if they overnighted it.
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  #104  
Old 05-26-2018, 08:36 PM
steve B steve B is offline
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On the more reasonable side, there's this.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1994-Signat...QAAOSwwwRa7lcf

Population either 6 or 4. (Not sure what D.G. Grade only means)

if it's not a 10 it seems to have settled in the 150-200 range.

So a lot less common to begin with, on-card signature, and a smaller population in a 10. In fact, there are only 22 nines too so not all that common in ether grade. And only 144 in any grade..
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  #105  
Old 05-26-2018, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by steve B View Post
On the more reasonable side, there's this.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1994-Signat...QAAOSwwwRa7lcf

Population either 6 or 4. (Not sure what D.G. Grade only means)

if it's not a 10 it seems to have settled in the 150-200 range.

So a lot less common to begin with, on-card signature, and a smaller population in a 10. In fact, there are only 22 nines too so not all that common in ether grade. And only 144 in any grade..
while that card is very nice it is unlicensed and Yankees not being on card is big to people. Not really to me but I would love to own a Mantle or a Mays in a minor league uniform. Idk if this is just a air brushed Yankees uniform.

I donít know about everywhere but, when this came out everyone was suspicious of the autos.

This is more like the 52 Topps Mantle. Itís the image and the set. Itís the fairy tale of the card. 1993 SP Derek Jeters fairly tales is that it was printed with so many defects and soft paper stock. If you look at it wrong it bends. And out of the millions printed we have 22 psa 10s.

1993 sp set was pushed as aĒ highendĒ product. With lesser print run because of how premium these cards stock was.
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  #106  
Old 05-27-2018, 08:31 PM
steve B steve B is offline
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Originally Posted by Rookiemonster View Post
while that card is very nice it is unlicensed and Yankees not being on card is big to people. Not really to me but I would love to own a Mantle or a Mays in a minor league uniform. Idk if this is just a air brushed Yankees uniform.

I donít know about everywhere but, when this came out everyone was suspicious of the autos.

This is more like the 52 Topps Mantle. Itís the image and the set. Itís the fairy tale of the card. 1993 SP Derek Jeters fairly tales is that it was printed with so many defects and soft paper stock. If you look at it wrong it bends. And out of the millions printed we have 22 psa 10s.

1993 sp set was pushed as aĒ highendĒ product. With lesser print run because of how premium these cards stock was.
Signature rookies was as licensed as any other minor league set at the time.
I think the uniform shown is the minor league affiliate, but I could be wrong.

The SP would be airbrushed, since he didn't play for NY till 95.

I was around to buy both when they were new. Bought a bunch of SR, and some how kept getting that darn kid from the Yankees system. Ended up with three. Got about what they'd sell for now almost a decade ago. Maybe a bit more since they weren't graded.
I didn't buy much SP, they just didn't do much for me, especially the main part of the set. They didn't seem any touchier than any other UD product at the time. Sadly, no Jeter. The ones I have are still just fine, even the ones in the box without sleeves
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  #107  
Old 05-27-2018, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by steve B View Post
Signature rookies was as licensed as any other minor league set at the time.
I think the uniform shown is the minor league affiliate, but I could be wrong.

The SP would be airbrushed, since he didn't play for NY till 95.

I was around to buy both when they were new. Bought a bunch of SR, and some how kept getting that darn kid from the Yankees system. Ended up with three. Got about what they'd sell for now almost a decade ago. Maybe a bit more since they weren't graded.
I didn't buy much SP, they just didn't do much for me, especially the main part of the set. They didn't seem any touchier than any other UD product at the time. Sadly, no Jeter. The ones I have are still just fine, even the ones in the box without sleeves
Yeah the 1993 didnít feel much different. I think 1995 was a set that was also banged up. They had the hologram on one side. But the 93 foil was also like that. 1993 Bowman also has foil cards that were very easily damaged but no premium for that. Iím nit saying I agree with the Derek Jeter fairytale it just is. Like the 52 Mantle being more rare because of the Topps dump. But it was a double print to begin with.
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  #108  
Old 05-30-2018, 09:03 AM
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I like Jeter. Think he played the game the right way. But the love fest that the modern fan has with the guy makes me scratch my head. And $100,000 for a non autographed rookie is the height of insanity. I don't care what the grade is.

He got 3,000 hits, so he should be in the Hall. But outside of hitting for average (.310 is good, I will give him that), tell me what Derek Jeter did that was exceptional?
I will admit to being a Jeter apologist but I think something that gets discounted quite often is just how valuable it is to have a guy put up rock solid production year in and year out for 20 years! In 20 years he had one real extended period of injury time. Once in 20 years! The other 18.5 years he was a top 5 producer at the position, 2-3 most years, hopefully without steroids! That goes a long, long way!
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  #109  
Old 06-02-2018, 01:14 AM
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Not saying I would pay $100k, but Jeters numbers are impressive, not to mention he played his entire career for one team and played only one position his entire career (he played more games at SS than Robin Yount and Ernie Banks added together).
And yet, in his prime, he was nowhere near the shortstop Yount or Banks were in theirs. Banks won two MVPs. Yount won two, also. One at shortstop, another in center field.

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A five-time World Series champion, Jeter is regarded as a central figure of the Yankees' success of the late 1990s and early 2000s for his hitting, baserunning, fielding, and leadership.
LOL at mentioning Jeter's fielding as being part of the reason the Yankees were successful.

First of all, regarding his base running, he was decent on the bases. Let's not make him out to be Rickey Henderson as a base stealer, or Stan Musial with the doubles and triples, because he wasn't. Stealing 356 bases in two decades, and 4,717 times on base, isn't that great. That he leads the Yankees all-time shouldn't be surprising, as the Yankees have historically been a team built around power. Rickey Henderson stole 326 in five years with the Yankees, so he nearly equaled Jeter. Henderson also had a 135 OPS + those five years with the Yankees. Jeter had one season in twenty (1999, 153) with an OPS + over 135. That's why Henderson's considered an all-time great. Jeter just didn't get that many extra base hits, either. His last fifteen years, he averaged 28 doubles, 2 triples and 13 home runs, or 33 doubles, 3 triples and 16 home runs per 162 games played, in an era where offensive numbers were off the charts. In 1996, his first full season, there was a league average of 5.39 runs per game, the third highest in the 117 years of American League history. Between '96 and 2005, there were an average of 5.01 runs scored per game. Compare that to the last five years, when there were an average of 4.46 runs per game. When you consider what other premier hitters were doing, Jeter's offensive numbers look downright paltry.

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Originally Posted by BLongley View Post
He is the Yankees' all-time career leader in hits (3,465), doubles (544), games played (2,747), stolen bases (358), times on base (4,716), plate appearances (12,602) and at bats (11,195). His accolades include 14 All-Star selections, five Gold Glove Awards, five Silver Slugger Awards, two Hank Aaron Awards, and a Roberto Clemente Award. Jeter was the 28th player to reach 3,000 hits and finished his career ranked sixth in MLB history in career hits and first among shortstops.
Games played, times on base, plate appearances, at bats. Compiled stats from a long career.

Hits? The last five years, Jeter was downright awful. He combined for 4.9 WAR, worth less than one win a season. If his name weren't Derek Jeter, the Yankees would have (and should have) canned him. Only a decent 2012 where he hit .316 salvaged the last quarter of his career from being a complete embarrassment. Like Rose at the end of his career trying to top Cobb, Jeter was clearly just trying to get to 3,000 hits and beyond. He got 718 hits those last five seasons, with a 94 OPS +. He was 6% below league average with the bat, and abysmal defensively.

And, I know the awards. All Star Games are popularity contests, so a guy playing in (by far) the most populous city in America being sent 14 times, when in a handful of those seasons he clearly wasn't deserving, doesn't impress me. Robin Yount wasn't even an All Star in 1989 when he won the MVP. The most deserving players don't always go, and sometimes, a player goes just because their name is Derek Jeter, even when they were worth 0.2 WAR for the whole season. Same with the Gold Gloves. He was at best an average shortstop in his prime, and awful otherwise. The Silver Sluggers? Somebody at every position has to win one. Jeter won one in 2008 with a 102 OPS +. The position in the American League was abysmal that year, so he was the least undeserving player. The award shouldn't have even been handed out that year because American League shortstops were pathetic. The other four seasons he put up pretty good numbers.

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Originally Posted by BLongley View Post
The only players with more career hits than Jeter are Pete Rose, Ty Cobb, Hank Aaron, Stan Musial and Tris Speaker. And you have to remember all of Jeters postseason records, all time postseason hits leader, etc.
Cobb, Aaron, Musial and Speaker are immortals of the game. Jeter doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath with those other men. And Rose? Well, Rose and Jeter are a good deal alike at first glance. They played long careers, and put up some monster compiling numbers. Jeter was a career .310 hitter in 12,602 PAs. In 12,935 PAs, which covered the period 1963 to 1980 (when Rose turned 40, the age at which Jeter retired), Rose was also a .310 career hitter. Jeter had a 115 career OPS +, and Rose, at the same point, was at 124. And they had similar career WAR. But unlike Jeter, Rose actually won three batting title, and he led the league in doubles five times. He led the league in hits seven times (Jeter did it twice), and in runs scored four times (once for Jeter). He also led the league in OBP twice.

And the postseason records? He was a member of the Yankees for two decades, a franchise that was in the playoffs nearly every year. He should be at or near the top in many categories, don't you think? Again, games played, at bats, plate appearances, hits-when you play a long time on a team that is incredibly successful, you amass those numbers. He was a .308 hitter in the post season. Pretty good, but hardly spectacular. He had some great post season series, and he had some terrible ones. Overall, he was a pretty good player in October. But is he close to being one of the best performers in playoff history? Nope.

Derek Jeter is worthy of being in the Hall of Fame. But his "greatness" as a player is totally overblown. The second half of his career, he was a slightly above average offensive player, and awful defensively. The last seven years (or, one third) of his career, he had a 101 OPS +. That's league average, folks. I know WAR isn't the ultimate metric, but if we're going by that for a quick eyeball test, and 5 + WAR is considered All Star level, from age 26 on, the last fifteen years of his career, Jeter had exactly three seasons that were All Star caliber. 2001 was a 5.2 WAR, 2006 was a 5.4, and 2009 was a 6.6 WAR. He had one other fringe All Star caliber season with a 4.6 in 2000. Besides the 4.2 he put up in 2004, he failed to reach 4 WAR in ten seasons. By WAR, he was All Star caliber in six of his eighteen full seasons.

Jeter is in the Hall because he hit .310 lifetime with 3,000 hits, 75% of which were singles.
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  #110  
Old 06-02-2018, 03:01 AM
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I will admit to being a Jeter apologist but I think something that gets discounted quite often is just how valuable it is to have a guy put up rock solid production year in and year out for 20 years! In 20 years he had one real extended period of injury time. Once in 20 years! The other 18.5 years he was a top 5 producer at the position, 2-3 most years, hopefully without steroids! That goes a long, long way!
But, he didn't put up rock solid production year in, year out.

Forgetting, for a moment, his defense, which was atrocious. Look at his offensive production, keeping in mind that 100 is league average for OPS +.

Excluding 1995 and 2013, as he played a combined 32 games, the years you could argue Jeter had "rock solid production" at shortstop:

1999 153 OPS +. Great season, MVP caliber, given his position.
2000 132 OPS +. Very good season, right?

In his second best offensive season, Derek Jeter was only the third best hitting shortstop in the American League. Alex Rodriguez put up a 163 OPS +, and Nomar Garciaparra put up a 156 OPS +.

Continuing.

2000 (128 OPS +), 1998 (127 OPS +), 2003, '05 and '09 (125 OPS +), 2001 (124 OPS +), 2007 (121 OPS +).

All solid, if unspectacular seasons. If you're a shortstop producing twenty percent above league average or higher, you're still valuable with the bat. Jeter had to keep this kind of offensive performance to continue being valuable to the team, because his defense is below average.

This next batch of seasons is where things get dicey, as his offensive production doesn't adequately offset his defensive deficiencies.

In 2004 and '12, he had a 114 OPS +. He was 30 years old in 2004. There were 77 batters in the American League with at least 500 PAs. Derek Jeter was 32nd in the AL in OPS +, and a very distant third best offensive shortstop, behind Carlos Guillen (143 OPS +) and Miguel Tejada (131 OPS +).

In 2002, his OPS + was 111. He was 28 years old. Of the 71 batters with 500 or more plate appearances in the American League, Derek Jeter was 41st overall. His OPS + was 7 points above Omar Vizquel's 104, who was not known as a hitting shortstop. Overall, he was the fourth best offensive shortstop in the AL, behind Alex Rodriguez (158), Miguel Tejada (128), and Nomar Garciaparra (127). By WAR, Derek Jeter was the fifth best shortstop in the American League (3.7), behind Alex Rodriguez (8.8), Nomar Garciapara (6.8), Miguel Tejada (5.6), and David Eckstein (5.3).

In 1997, his OPS + was 103. This is at least understandable, given his age, and Major League service time.

In 2008, his OPS + was 102. This is his age 34 season. He was a league average hitter. Fortunately for Jeter, the shortstops in the American League were terrible that year. Yet, he was still only the third best offensive shortstop, behind Mike Aviles (121 OPS +) and Jhonny Peralta (113 OPS +). And by league OPS +, of the 103 batters with over 400 plate appearances, Derek Jeter was 55th.

In 1996, his OPS + was 101. He won the Rookie of the Year
In 2011, his OPS + was 100.
In 2010, his OPS + was 90.
In 2014, his OPS + was 76.

For a full third of his career (1997, 2008, 1996, 2011, 2010, 2014), he was either barely above league average, or below league average, as a hitter. These seasons are somewhat forgivable given his youth, or, towards the end of his career, his age.

But it's the other seasons just above those listed that are problematic. A 111 or 114 OPS + really isn't that good, either at age 28 or 30. Not for a Hall of Fame shortstop who got to Cooperstown solely on his hitting. I can forgive his 114 OPS + in 2012 because he was 38. But in the big picture, that's nine of eighteen full seasons where his OPS + was 114 or lower.

Was Derek Jeter ever the best shortstop in the American League? I'm not even including the NL, here. Just the AL.
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