Suggestions for Grading Companies

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Posted By: Matt

A comment by Alan in another thread, got me thinking of suggestions we may have for the grading companies on what they can do to improve their services (I'm limiting my comments to improvements no grading company that I am aware of currently employ):

1) Keeping scans of every card they grade. The benefits are several-fold, including, it would make adding a card to your registry much simpler, it would provide a database of exemplars for rare cards, and the scans could be used to ID if the same card has been submitted previously (if for nothing other then adjusting the pop count). Data storage is so cheap now, that it would not be cost prohibitive to do this.

2) Make the plastic used in slabs UV protected to prevent sun damage.



any other suggestions?

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Posted By: Joe D.

I like the UV idea.

here are some of my quick suggestions -

For SGC:
1) Thinner slabs (like PSA)
2) Better stack-ability of slabs (like PSA)


For PSA:
1) No more cards swimming in the slabs, please.


For Beckett:
1) Easier crackability.
2) No baggie please

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

Communication between the "big" grading companies so when a cross-over is received, the grading company alerts the former that the cert is being removed from the population.

Along similar lines - maybe the grading companies (or a private individual) can start a universal registry.

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Posted By: Matt

Joe - good stuff; as far as SGC changing the form of their slabs I would think that any major grading company would be reluctant to changing the external dimensions of their slab since it would make stacking with the current form factor impossible. They have chosen the dimensions of their slabs and are basically "stuck" at this point.

Jon - Sounds like a business idea - a Unified Set Registry (c). Think of the testosterone if SGC and PSA slab owners would not only be competeing against their own brand of choice but against all major grading agencies!
SGC supposedly sends flips from crossovers back to their makers, but when I asked Michael at SGC if, in his experience, those companies actually remove the cards from their pop reports, he didn't want to answer in the affirmative.

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Posted By: T206Collector

...back my first two pre-war cards back from Beckett/JSA. The holders look awesome except -- and this is huge -- those damn baggies.

The baggies look horrendous, they detract from card visibility and I am afraid of what the scans will look like.

Seriously, I understand the baggy theory of protection. But grading should not only preserve but also showcase the card.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Visit http://www.t206collector.com for signed deadball card galleries, articles and more!

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Posted By: Rob

good suggestions above. the only one i'd disagree with is for beckett - easier crackability. I think its good that their slabs are hard to crack, as it means less chance of foul play. Both sgc and psa have had instances of either cards getting swapped, or the labels. I believe Kevin Saucier said he wasn't able to take apart a BVG slab and put it back w/o significant signs of tampering ... correct me if i'm wrong (which is often, hee hee). I think thats a good thing.

Rob

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Posted By: Anonymous

Won't happen, but make it transparent who submitted cards so a potential buyer can know from whence they came.

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Posted By: Eric Brehm

For PSA: stop changing the rules in the middle of the game. Get it right the first time.

(1) Their decision to start classifying T206's by back type has thrown confusion into the population reports, which now consist mostly of cards with "Unknown" back. So a pose with a common back is often touted as "1 of 3" and so on. Not the end of the world, but a bit annoying. Actually, this has not affected me much personally since I don't really care what tobacco company advertised on the back of a card, and I collect them in the middle grades where most of the cards are relatively plentiful; thus I tend to ignore the T206 pop figures for the most part.

(2) The use of half-grades might be good in terms of grading and valuation accuracy in the long term, but their decision to introduce them at this late date has created the need for collectors to pay to have the cards graded more than once. Once should have been enough.

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Posted By: Anthony S.

I think SGC rocks, with one huge caveat: The population reports. I only use them as a resource when I'm selling.

Here's an example of the unintuitive pain-in-the-assed-ness of SGC population reports. I just ran these searches within the hour:

1) In the keyword field, I typed in: e90-1

No specific matches found, it tells you to type in a player name and year.

Seriously, shouldn't the user be able to simply type in the keyword e90-1, and get a population report for the entire set?

2) In the keyword field, I typed in: American Caramel

Ditto

3) In the year field, I typed in: 1909

American Caramel pops up as one of the possibilities, so I click on it, but it only gives the population reports for e91s.

4) In the year field, I typed in: 1910

American Caramel pops up again as one of the possibilities, so I click on it, but it only gives the population reports for e125s

5) I type in: 1909-11 (as e90-1's were produced all 3 years)

Among the possibilities that pop up are:

a) e90-1
b) American Caramel

So I clicked on e90-1 first. One name pops up. Larry McLean. That's it. It's like running a population report check for T231's (this is the only place I know where I can use this analogy, if I ever used such an analogy to my friends they'd beat me with a stick).

Doesn't somebody at SGC have a computer whiz son, home from school for the summer, who can fix the reports and make the population search process a little less byzantine?

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Posted By: leon

When you collect based on true rarity and not only condition rarity then who needs a pop report?




Otherwise, I don't think there will ever be a universal registry for several reasons, not the least of which PSA would never do it. And I am not sure SGC would either......PSA, SGC and Beckett all do decent jobs overall....

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Posted By: Matt

Anthony - to pick up on your frustration, I think both PSA and SGC should look to how VCP allows searching and use that as a template for their pop reports. PSA, to the best of my knowledge, only allows searching based on name and browsing based on year. You'd have to know that PSA thinks E101s come from 1909 to be able to get a pop list of the set. SGC, as you mentioned, is even more difficult. The VCP setup allows you to search by brand name, player, ACC# and card-type.

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Posted By: Anthony S.

I neglected to mention that certain sets, T206 for example, in the SGC pop reports (and if memory serves the PSA pop reports as well) are listed alphabetically....by first name. Want to find the T206 Alperman? Go to the last page of the report and look under Whitey. Forget that Davidson's first name is Paul? Pull up a chair and scroll a while.

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Posted By: Mark

The UV protection seems like a no-brainer that should have been applied from the onset. Even those cheap plastic Ball Cubes have UV protection.

I would also like to see a scratch-free plastic used. It is extremely irritating (and distracting) to see an expensive card permanently encapsulated in a scratched/scuffed holder. Considering the value of what's contained inside, I would think this is not too much to ask.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Please pay more attention to the photo quality of Old Judges and less attention to minor paper loss on the back.

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Posted By: Joe D.

that is a great one barry!

I find it sad to see an OJ with such a faded image that you can hardly see it.... and it gets a high grade because the corners are sharp.
Then there is an OJ with just a beautiful image that gets a 20 because of some sort of minor paper loss / rounded corners.

cmon!


If I may add to that....
graders: please pay closer attention to color registration.



If I can sum it up....
it seems that 'card' graders sometimes lose site of the fact that they are 'card' graders.
Instead - they think they are 'paper' graders.
So the other parts of what make it a 'card' are ignored, and only the paper is judged.

You are not paper graders - you are card graders.

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Posted By: Matt

Mark - great point on the scratch proofing; I don't have any idea of what the additional cost would be, but I wouldn't mind a $1 raise in slab price to cover it. It seems silly that after paying to have a card protected in a hard plastic holder, you then go and buy a plastic sleeve to protect the holder.

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Posted By: boxingcardman

1. Free beer while waiting in line to drop off submittals at the National.
2. Each registry set winner receives his or her choice of a certificate or a free movie rental from Netflicks.
3. The HOF inductees are whisked by bicycle to downtown Chicago where their pants are pressed for free. OK, I stole that one from Fred Allen's old radio show...
4. Free toaster with every 100th submission.
5. If they don't make a turnaround time on your submission at the National, they hand-deliver it to your hotel room when it is ready.
6. If PSA blows a turnaround time on a top-tier service, Joe O has to personally call you and apologize.

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: JimB

Eric,
One solution PSA might do for the T206 back problem is continue to specify by back, but have a separate pop account of all accumulated backs which could include the unknown backs from before and all known backs.
JimB

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Posted By: Alan U

I agree with the post above about SGC's population reports and also don't like having to know the year (or at least the year PSA attaches to a card) in order to look up cards on PSA's population reports, especially on more obscure issues.

-Alan

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Posted By: Robert Klevens

How accurate is the population report anyway? I believe many cards are broken out of the holders and submitted again which screws up the population report anyway.

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Posted By: Matt

I don't think anyone claims the pop reports are 100% accurate, but they certainly can help in determining relative rarity.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Adam- Good list, but you left one out:

If they don't grade your card within thirty minutes, your Domino's Pizza is free.

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Posted By: Eric Brehm

JimB -- yes, if PSA were to include a line item showing the total number in each grade for each pose, regardless of back type, that would largely solve the problem. Or better yet, go to a hierarchical system like SGC uses, where you can click on the line showing the totals and then see the detailed stats by back type. Either way, the "Unknown Back" cards, which still comprise over 70% of the graded T206 population, are going to be with us for a long time to come.

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Posted By: Matt

SGC has an "unknown pose" problem of their own on the T206s, which they are slowly rectifying.

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Posted By: Eric B

How about when you type in the word "Coupon", the pop report first takes you to the T206 White Border set.

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Posted By: Fred C

Stop assigning numerical grades. Authenticate the card and be done with it. I've seen enough graded cards that have imperfections not consistent with the grade. For example, I've seen enough cards with small paper pulls and they are graded 3's or 4's (and even higher). Authenticate the card and let the buyer beware when purchasing. Cards will then be purchased for their true aesthics rather than for the number on the slab label. Haven't we seen enough variance in subjectivity to make us want to vomit?

If the card is altered (or perceived to be altered) then the grading company should list the alteration(s).

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Posted By: Mark Anderson

Great ideas in this thread. Of course I know these are directed all over the place - some at a particular company and some at all companies, but I will actually be going through them more in depth (probably after the National is over and I have time to breathe again) to discuss things BVG/BGS can look into.

Obviously, there is no way to please everyone, and sometimes what seems like a great idea to one person isn't economically best for the business, or is considered a detractor by others. There are a lot of factors to consider, and every decision inevitably makes one group happy, one group upset, and one group who isn't impacted too much. Regardless, I love to see what people are asking for, and it is often input from customers that turns into new business ideas or changes for us.


REGISTRY:

Regarding a multi-company registry, this is actually an idea that has been pitched in the past, but as someone alluded to, an official registry like that would require the participation of each company. At the time it was presented a few years ago, not every company was on board and the logistics were rather cumbersome, to say the least. I am still in favor of this idea if other companies are interested.

However, Beckett.com is close to launching a completely new website, all very Web 2.0 friendly. Among the planned changes will be a revamped Registry (aka "My Collections") that allows registries of BGS/BVG, or registries of mixed cards from BVG/BGS, SGC, PSA, and GAI. In addition, you can also put raw cards in your registry. When it comes to adding points and competing in contests, those will be BVG/BGS exclusive. But as far as organizing your collection, all four major companies can be entered. You can see a little glimpse of the new site ideas at this blog:

http://blogbeckett.wordpress.com/2008/06/30/organ-eaze/


SCANS:

Scanning every incoming card has also been discussed at length. Essentially, it comes down to a logistics issue of manpower to scan a million cards a year, as well as hosting and organizing over 6 million cards total. Not out of the question, but would most customers be willing to pay more for this?


UV:

I don't know about the others, but BGS/BVG holders do have UV protectant in them. The levels added change the tint of the material, so you have to balance the amount of UV protection with the aesthetics of the product.


POP:

If anyone sends us an old flip, we will remove it from the POP Report. At this point, we don't receive any flips from any other companies, but I'm willing to remove cards from our POP on any flips other companies send me. Not a problem at all.


CRACKABILITY:

That one we won't change. We want our slabs impossible to open easily as that makes them the most secure. There are ways to free your cards - a simple and cheap method is to snip a top corner of the slab with bolt cutters, and then use a thin flat head screwdriver to pop up the outer edges of the holder.


SLEEVES:

Yes, there are pros and cons. I know the scanning is harder with our inner sleeves. But it is still the safest protection for the card so it doesn't rattle around in the holder and suffer edge damage. I know with a digital camera, just taking the image at a slight angle works. Any other ideas? Also, because we slab so many different sizes of items, particularly with JSA autographs now, the sleeves give us complete flexibility to custom create each sleeve to fit the item.


SCRATCH-FREE HOLDERS:

Very interesting. I'm not aware of widespread problems with this, however, I'm sure it happens at some level. I will actually talk to our manufacturers about whether any kind of scratch-protectant that can be added.


OLD JUDGE CARDS:

We will discuss this in a Grader meeting, regarding photo clarity vs. paper loss. Good input.


ALTERED CARDS:

Although we don't list the exact alterations on the label, we do differentiate Authentic cards into two groups -- AUTHENTIC (meaning unaltered), or AUTHENTIC-ALTERED. Some people do choose to have them slabbed authentic without grades, or even give a minimum grade, and cards falling short of the minimum they want slabbed as Authentic.


See you all in Chicago,
Mark Anderson

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Posted By: Matt

Mark - first of all, kudos for listening and replying here for further discussion; responsiveness to your customer base can only lead to good things. Also, it is excellent that BVG uses UV in their slabs - I am of the understanding that PSA and SGC do not.

Two follow up questions:

1) Even with 1 million yearly submissions, at 50kb a scan (jpg with normal compression at 150%), you're only talking about 50 GB of storage; for higher quality, we're still talking about just a single dedicated high-speed hard drive. There would be some minimal upfront costs of getting your grading software to automatically scan and crop the image at the touch of a button, but once done, it shouldn't make a submission take more then additional 30 seconds to scan in.

2) You suggested that the baggy is the best way to preserve corners and therefore it will be staying; what about an insert like SGC uses, where the corners don't come into contact at all?

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Posted By: Mark Anderson

Hi Matt,

Thanks for the response...

1. The manpower is the bigger issue. Going with the 30 seconds per scan estimate, for one million cards, that would equate to 8333 man-hours a year, or 4 additional full-time employees at 2080 hours/year average (with associated salaries, benefits, office space, equipment, etc.). If the majority of submitters wanted that and would pay the additional fees to cover costs, it could be done, but we'd need to see from a large sampling that most people would want that. (Again, not saying it is a bad idea at all, as we've looked into it on multiple occasions and I still think there are other ways to make it work. I'll look into it again in a few different formats.)

2. We looked into the rigid inserts in the beginning, but we like the ability to visually see the edges in the clear sleeve. The inserts can hide the edges, and if dropped, the cards will hit against the edges and could cause damage. Nothing against SGC's holders at all - I personally agree they look very sharp with the black "frame". We just wanted to go a different direction that addressed the above concerns that people shared with us back in 1999. Perfect world? Some kind of design where the inner cavity bars are actually made of a softer, pliable material like rubber that absorbs shock if dropped instead of transferring it to the card. Unfortunately, the options we looked into were not archival safe. Any engineers on the board want to take a stab at this?

Thanks,
Mark

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Posted By: Matt

Again, thanks for the informative response. One question - do you actually get close to 1 million submissions a year that your calculations above hold true, or is that just a calculation with the possibility of scaling the company to dominate the grading world in mind?

What if it was only done for BVG submissions?

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Posted By: leon

Mark can answer but I have been in their grading room a few times....It's a major production with lots of folks in cubicles with their heads down and machines running. It's really cool....and a fairly major situation. You have to remember the Beckett name in the newer stuff. There is way way more of that than what most of us imagine....... regards

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Posted By: boxingcardman

Mark, the posters on this board appreciate your taking the time to come in here and respond to issues involving the grading business.

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: Sean

Matt,
When you talk about them scanning the cards are you thinking before they are slabbed or after? I would think it would be a pretty big liability for a guys to be laying and scanning cards without a slab...I get scared enough when the card card is in g/vg condition, I could imagine the amount of sweat that would pour out if it was a possible 9.5 or 10 card that was worth $1000+.

My cousin is a new card dealer (mostly the expensive jersey and autograph cards) and pretty much everything he has graded is done by Beckett, I think they are neck and neck with PSA for the new stuff.

But I to would like to have UV protection, I like to keep a few cards on my desk and I would hate for them to fade.

Sean

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Posted By: Mark Anderson

The one million cards per year is a reasonable (and conservative) estimate. Exact numbers are confidential, but knowing we use sequential serial numbers, and growth since we first started grading in 1999, I'm not giving anything away that isn't already deducible (is that a word?) by the general public. The exact number, the breakdown of services, corporate orders, etc. are all confidential still. In the next SCD focusing on Grading, I think we mention that we've probably graded closer to 10-11 million cards with those corporate orders and such, since 1999.

------

Oh and about the beer... funny enough, I specifically remember someone providing dealers pizza and beer kegs at the National a few years ago before the show opened to the public! I can't recall which company, nor how that went for them. Anyone else recall that? Maybe 5-7 years ago?

Personally, the idea conjures up horrifying images in my mind: a '52 Topps Mantle card swimming in beer spilled on the booth table; another customer in a beer-enhanced stupor trying to understand our service reps explaining how subgrades are calculated; beer mugs being hurled at reps handing back orders by customers upset about their card being altered. shudder I think we'll pass on the free beer

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Posted By: Matt

Sean - Scanning once they are slabbed might have other benefits as well; how helpful would it be to be able to lookup a prospective purchase and be assured that the card in the slab is the same one that the grading company put in there?

Mark - I imagine if this was done for only your vintage submissions, it might be more feasible?

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Posted By: Joe D.

Mark,

Thank you for your posts here.

Very quickly I would like to say.....

.... I love that beckett gives 4 separate grades (corners, centering, edges, surface) and then an overall grade. Considering you are selling an authentication and an opinion - it is nice to see reasons, in the form of the 4 criteria, for the overall opinion.


.... The reason I would like a more crackable slab... is well - safety or ease of freeing the card without harming the card. I've tried the snip and screwdriver method you mentioned (with all grader slabs).... I still get nervous with Beckett as it is a tough go.


.... Sleeves. I am going to be brutally honest here. This is THE reason I will not submit a card to Beckett. Please get rid of the baggies. This a digital age. If I can not scan and share an image of my cards, it takes away most of the fun - and it makes a card more difficult to sell when the time comes. When the baggies go, you will have me as a customer.

Regards,
Joe


edited out an extra word.

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Posted By: Phil Garry

I used to purchase many Beckett graded cards when I collected high-grade modern baseball rookies like A-Rod, Jeter, Bonds, etc. in BGS 9.5 & BGS 10 grades. About 5 yeras ago, I decided that segment of the market was becoming too volatile and mover over to vintage graded cards.

My first experience with submitting a vintage piece to Beckett was at the PCCE show in Chicago this past April. The item I wanted to submit was kind of unique and I showed it to both of the Beckett employees manning the table (I don't think Mark was one of them). They agreed that it is an item that Beckett would grdae/authenticate so I completed the necessary paperwork and submitted it.

I was very disappointed to find out upon return of my order that my item was not holdered at all and the form simply stated that it was not an issue that Beckett currently grades. Well, I did receive a credit back on my credit card for the grading fee but was out the $22.00 shipping charges. I would have welcomed an e-mail or phone call by a Beckett grader to provide more information about the item which might have been helpful prior to returning it.

As the grading business evolves, there will be more and more "unique, never before graded" pieces coming in for grading and I think the grading companies that are willing to discuss why or why not a piece should be graded/authenticated will become the graders of choice as we move forward.

Just my opinion on the subject.........

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Posted By: Mark Anderson

Phil - do you mind letting me know what the item in question was? You can email privately if you prefer. Was it oversized?

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Posted By: Jeffrey

Personally, the sleeves are one of the biggest reasons that I use BGS for my grading.
I don't know why you all say it ruins the scans? Mine look great using the scanner's factory settings and I might have spent $100 on my scanner

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Posted By: JimB

Mark,
I just want to say that I appreciate your responsiveness and willingness to come on here and discuss these issues. It says a lot.
Best,
JimB

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Posted By: Joe D.

Jeffrey....

Here is an example.

I scanned this many times to try to get it without that baggie-reflection.

This is the best I got.





The end result.... I cracked it out and submitted it to an alternate grader.

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

The Beckett slab is the most secure (by far), this is a good thing. It is also water proof, which may not seem important but it is for the unsuspecting collector who uses Windex to clean the slab. Most other holders just suck it right in like a sponge. Some worse and faster than others.

IMO the baggies should be your best friend. I've got plenty of examples of cards damaged by the rails and starting to see some damaged by the hard plastic gaskets.

In the end, it's all a matter of personal preference and what you feel is best for your cards.


Kevin


------------------------------

www.AlteredCards.com - in-depth education on advanced card doctoring techniques & detection with detailed examples

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Posted By: Phil Garry

Mark:

E-mail sent (I forgot to put anything on the subject line).

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Posted By: Jeffrey

Joe D.,

Interesting, never seen that before.
Just wondering, do you have the same problem with full size cards or could it be something about the smaller cards?

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Posted By: Bilko G

I am a huge collector of graded cards and have graded items of all companies in my collection with BGS having the most. Im very happy to hear that Mark has confirmed that BGS/BVG DOES use some UV protection on their slabs, i always have a few slabs on display, but will feel a lot better knowing of this UV protection. I, like Jeffery, have no problems whatsoever scanning the BVG slabs on they turn out crystal clear, actually it is very hard to even notice the inner sleeve, from the scan. I also would HATE to see BGS get rid of the inner sleeve, to me, along with their tamper proof and water proof slabs is what sets them above the other companies and makes them my grader of choice. Personally, i can't stand how many of PSA cards actually move around inside the slab. This is fine if they are in a box at home, rarely looked at, for us that travel to shows to set up, Im always so worried when they are packed up in my van or at the bottom of an airplane moving around. As far as suggestions go, most of mine have already been mentioned. The one thing id like to see though, is some sort of nice looking, padded, carrying case, made especially for graded cards. Maybe a brief case looking carrying case? I dunno, but something that offers protection, organization and style

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Posted By: Rob

" I love that beckett gives 4 separate grades (corners, centering, edges, surface) and then an overall grade."

Unfortunately BVG stopped giving the 4 subgrades a while ago - maybe 2 or 3 years? I wish they'd bring it back. BGS still gives them.

Joe D, may I ask what grade that WJ got w/the other grading company? Beautiful card!

Rob

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Posted By: Matt

Mark - reading through your excellent post again, I noticed something:

"If anyone sends us an old flip, we will remove it from the POP Report. At this point, we don't receive any flips from any other companies, but I'm willing to remove cards from our POP on any flips other companies send me. Not a problem at all."

I was under the impression that at least SGC did indeed send back flips when cards were submitted for cross-over. You are saying that no one does, which means it's probably best to ask the flips be returned with the cards so that we can submit them to the previous company ourselves. It also means pop reports are even more messed up then I thought

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Posted By: Mark Anderson

Some responses:

Yes, we did remove subgrades from BVG a couple years back. It was a very risky decision, and we knew it would be polarizing. I also loved the report card to show the strengths and weaknesses. On the other hand, on vintage material, our feedback was that those cards sometimes need to be looked at in more of an overall manner. The comment in this thread about Old Judge cards is an excellent example - if we grade them as technically as a 1978 Topps card, a little paper scuffing on the back kills the grade. It is also more common on vintage to have one subgrade area with a significant flaw, such as a card with nice corners, edges, and surface, but is off center... or a card with nice centering, corners, and edges, but glue residue on the surface. Manipulating subgrades to arrive at a sensible overall grade could be very difficult at times. While I know some people greatly disliked the change, I have to admit that our vintage business instantly started growing right after that change. It has continued to be our fastest growing segment for three years now.

I emailed Phil privately. But for anyone else, if you have cards that are uncatalogued or otherwise oddball-oriented, feel free to email me with a scan. If we can authenticate and identify it, we would love to get these type of cards in BVG holders. We actually love seeing these types of cards.

Jeff, awesome Clemente card. I'm not a big modern collector anymore, but I had to build that 2007 UD Masterpieces set the old fashioned way, it was so beautiful. Probably my vote getter as the most aethetically gorgeous set of the last 2 decades. The Gehrig image is just incredible.

Joe, that is interesting on the Cracker Jack scan. I rarely ever see that. Sometimes I see glare on the bottom of the sleeve, but the middle glare is very unusual in my experience.

Bilko, we don't have plans to produce anything like that, but for anyone else who wants to, we would certainly be willing to help out. I know there was a company that did some great wood storage boxes for graded cards a few years ago that were beautiful. I think they may be out of business though?

Matt, SGC might send the flips to PSA or GAI. You could probably check with Glyn on that. He's good at responding to Net 54. I'm willing to pull our old serial numbers from the POP for any flips we receive, whether from other companies or individuals.

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Posted By: Jerry Hrechka

The company making the custom wood storage boxes was MJ Roop Co. and unfortunately they are out of business. I have a gorgeous monogramed Horrors of War Box I bought from them. Wish I could get another (The box holds 180 slabbed cards).

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Posted By: Red

Are the Beckett plastic bags made from an archival quality non-PVC material?