Wagner Mino -$5444

[Archive]

Posted By: Bruce Babcock

http://cgi.ebay.com/1911-16-T216-MINO-HONUS-WAGNER-SGC-30-SUPER-RARE_W0QQitemZ8716430261QQcategoryZ31718QQssPageNa meZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Was anyone else shocked by the winning bid amount of $5444? It's a great card in my opinion, and SGC 30 = "near mint" in my book, but wow . . . Maybe I just shock easily.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

It's a real tough card and David has a loyal following. No high prices are shocking anymore- they've lost their shock value. They've become the norm.

[Archive]

Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

As the guy who came in 2nd, I can just say that I wanted the card and placed a bid that I thought was absurd. Only problem is there was a guy a bit more crazy than me.

What is worse is that I have now been offered two and half much weaker looking examples for the same kind of money.

[Archive]

Posted By: Richard

Greg - if you don't mind me asking, how does one get offered a half a card? I guess it would really qualify as a weaker example.

[Archive]

Posted By: Wesley

I have only seen two T216 Mino Wagners come up in the last four or five years. How many others are out there?

[Archive]

Posted By: Hal Lewis

I have one, and in fairness to me...

I did NOT give Greg a specific price.

I mentioned that I need Paul Stewart's "Maple Crispette Bottomley", and that if Greg could trade Paul something for his Bottomley, then I would make the trade with Greg.

In other words, if Greg could have traded Paul $1,000 worth of card for his Bottomley (I have NO IDEA what price Paul is asking)... then he could have had my Wagner for $1,000.

From what Greg is saying, it sounds like Paul may be asking big money for his Bottomley...

but that is not my fault!

[Archive]

Posted By: identify7

Yup.

That sounds like the "half".

[Archive]

Posted By: nbrazil

i gave it my best bid....but it wasnt enough...by a magnitude of 2!

[Archive]

Posted By: Brian

Beware 2nd chance offers on this card. I have received such, and they didn't come from the seller. I have informed both the seller and ebay of the attempted fraud.

Brian

[Archive]

Posted By: Hal Lewis

I agree, Gil.

I'm sure my offer was the "half-offer" that Greg was talking about.

[Archive]

Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Does anyone want to take a stab at answering Wesley's question:

"I have only seen two T216 Mino Wagners come up in the last four or five years. How many others are out there?"

[Archive]

Posted By: Rich Jacobs

I've got one, a PSA 3, that is from a Mastro auction several years ago. I thought I overpaid, but it sure looks like a bargain now.

[Archive]

Posted By: Hal Lewis

That's 3:

My SGC 10
The EBay SGC 30
Rich's PSA 3


Here's my ugly duckling:




I might add, however, that I think mine is the rarer "Type II" card that is mentioned in the catalog because mine is on very thin paper stock and not on cardboard like the one from Ebay.

I have no idea which version Rich has?

[Archive]

Posted By: Rich Jacobs

Hal:

Mine is type I--it's not thin paper stock.

[Archive]

Posted By: cmoking

Hal - I'm curious how you can define your card as the "rarer" type. It seems the board only knows of 3 copies of this card - 2 of Type 1 and 1 of Type 2. That doesn't seem to be enough to say that one is rarer than the other. I understand you aren't saying your card is rarer - and it is the catalog that has that written - but how can they know if this whole board only knows of 3?

[Archive]

Posted By: Darren J. Duet

According to the data presented here, type I is 2x more common than type II. That makes Type II the rarer type(not a significant sample size<that is only if there are more Mino Wagner's out there>).

[Archive]

Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

Hal,

You did not have to implicate yourself on my behalf. I was not going to mention names.

The number and parameters you were referring to for the Bottomley were equal to the final price on the Wagner that was on ebay. In reading between the lines it was a given that I was going to have to end up paying nearly 5k for your card. As per your ridiculous example, I was not going to be able to trade Paul 1000 worth of cards for the Bottomley unless it was a card or cards that I bought in 1983.

I never pursued it as it was clear we were not sharing the same reality. Before I replied to you I sent your email to 3 other people to get their interpretation. Wanted to be sure I was not misinterpreting anything.

[Archive]

Posted By: Richard

Greg,

Without naming names, could you provide a better count of how many Mino Wagners there are out there? You mentioned that 2 others approached you as owners of Mino Wagners. Would that bring the count up to 5? And any idea of the condition of the other 2?

Also, I read the catalog and also Lipset's encyclopedia last week and, unless I am not reading correctly, only the Kotton backs were found with heavy stock and paper stock, while the Mino's and Virginia Extras are only found with the thicker stock (single type). Is this correct? Any People's Tobacco experts out there?

[Archive]

Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

Hi Richard,

I was offered 3 in total as a result of my bid. The one from Hal, another one is slightly better condition, possibly Good and one other which was described as being as nice or nicer than the one on ebay. I am waiting for the scan. If I am not provided a scan I will conclude that this offer is bogus. All 3 offers are coming by way of 3 legitimate individuals.

Greg

[Archive]

Posted By: Josh K.

Greg,

I dont think the question Richard asked has been answered though - are there actually 5 out there (in other words, are your offers from people other than those who have already self-identified themselves as having a mino wagner).

[Archive]

Posted By: Hal Lewis

Greg:

You didn't implicate me in any way. No problem in that regard!

It's just that with so few of these out there and everybody knowing that I own one... the logic dictated that I was one of the folks you mentioned.



The only reason I wanted to "clarify" my position was just because I don't want people thinking that I am a "dealer" or "seller" in any way.

Can you please just confirm for everyone that you approached me about my card and NOT vice-versa?

Thanks!

That's all I wanted to put out there, because the last thing I want is 1,000 people e-mailing me about how much I want for this card or that card.

Or people thinking that I am buying their cards to re-sell.

A lot of people deal with me because they know that I truly LOVE the cards I buy and will hold on to them as long as possible.

I just don't want people to NOT sell me their rare items because they fear that their item will then show up in the next big auction, etc.



(I'm still blaming Paul for all of this!)

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

In my experiences of owning about 10-15 Mino T216's, several Virginia Extra's, and several of the Kotton's.....I have never seen a thin Mino. The thin stocked cards, again in my experience, are the Virginia Extra's and the 3rd version of the Kottons ONLY. That Kotton back is one that says "Never Go Out" on it. ALL Mino's are thick stocked that I have seen. If anyone has a Mino that is not in a holder and thin stocked I would like to know. I think it's a fallacy but could be wrong. Actually I think the guides are confusing on this matter too. regards

[Archive]

Posted By: Millerhouse

From my experience with T216s, I believe Leon is correct. I've not seen thin versions of T216s other than those bearing Virginia Extra backs and the Kotton Cigarettes back without a factory number. See, for example, the photo on page 209 of 2004s SCD Standard Catalog. Similarly, I've never seen a Virginia Extra back bearing a factory number.

This has always led me to wonder whether the thin-backed T216s were ever actually issued with tobacco. Indeed, I can't think of another 1910 era tobacco card issued without a factory number. And, while we're at it, I've always thought that the Virginia Extras and the Kotton Cigarettes (no factory number) cards looked hand-cut. I have no idea how they were issued, but it doesn't appear to me as though they were issued in the packs like all the other factory-numbered cards of the era.

I'd love to hear from anyone with a Virginia Extra back with a factory number or with a Kotton Cigarettes (no factory number) back that is not on thin paper. At bottom, Hal, to the extent that your Wagner Mino is thinner, I'm willing to bet that it's from excessive wear only.

Dan Gantt

[Archive]

Posted By: Hal Lewis

Wear?

WEAR!?

That card is a Gem Mint PRO 10 !!!

[Archive]

Posted By: Millerhouse

Now, Hal, there you're clearly wrong. To be a Gem Mint Pro 10 would require that your card be trimmed. That it clearly is not.

Dan

[Archive]

Posted By: Hal Lewis

Haaaaa!



It sounds like there are about 5 or so of these known to exist right now.

Perhaps a few others are sitting in shoeboxes or closets somewhere.

[Archive]

Posted By: Millerhouse

I thought I'd give this old thread a bump in hopes that I might get some response to my inquiries, a few posts above, as to whether (1) any of the apparently thin T216s had ever been found with a factory number and (2) whether any Virginia Extra back T216s had ever been found with a factory number.

Again, this has always led me to believe that the thin T216 Virginia Extras and the T216 Kotton Cigarettes (without factory numbers) may not have ever been issued in packs of tobacco.

Does anyone out there have any cards that are to the contrary and does anyone have a view as to the reason that these apparently hand-cut T216s lack factory numbers -- other than that, perhaps, they were cut out of some sort of advertising sheet and not issued in packs?

Dan Gantt