Poll: response to recent PWCC revelations

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I am not nearly smart enough to design a poll encompassing all three areas at once, but by all means you should.

Would this have been too hard?

I wasn't buying from or consigning to PWCC or submitting to PSA in the first place.
I will no longer buy from/consign to PWCC or submit to PSA.
I will continue to buy from/consign to PWCC and submit to PSA.
I haven't decided.

Let's not be disingenuous.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Would this have been too hard?

I wasn't buying from or consigning to PWCC or submitting to PSA in the first place.
I will no longer buy from/consign to PWCC or submit to PSA.
I will continue to buy from/consign to PWCC and submit to PSA.
I haven't decided.

Let's not be disingenuous.

Suppose I won't buy from PWCC but will submit to PSA. Or vice versa? Which answer do I choose? David you're being ridiculous. Stop. Start your own poll.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Suppose I won't buy from PWCC but will submit to PSA. Or vice versa? Which answer do I choose? David you're being ridiculous. Stop. Start your own poll.

You're being ridiculous. You say this...

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

To me there are three issues here of equal importance. The card doctors. The sellers enabling the card doctors. And the TPGs (hopefully due to incompetence not fraud) slabbing doctored cards. I think all three need to be addressed and I'll take intervention at any and all levels.

... but then only include PWCC in your poll. If they're all share in the blame equally, why not include them equally? If they're all equal, why would you do business with one and not the other? I don't get that.

But I do get this. Your poll proves Jesse right. It really is a mob mentality.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

You're being ridiculous. You say this...



... but then only include PWCC in your poll. If they're all share in the blame equally, why not include them equally? If they're all equal, why would you do business with one and not the other? I don't get that.

But I do get this. Your poll proves Jesse right. It really is a mob mentality.

Why you are sniping at someone doing his best to criticize fraud in the hobby we all presumably love is beyond me at this point, David.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I should add Leon that you really would be best advised not to continue to make pronouncements about what you think the law is. Do you think for example that Robin Hood would have been excused from the crime of stealing because he thought it was the right thing to do?

Not knowing right from wrong is an insanity defense but otherwise it's not the issue for intent.

[Leon]

ok, then he was insane.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I should add Leon that you really would be best advised not to continue to make pronouncements about what you think the law is. Do you think for example that Robin Hood would have been excused from the crime of stealing because he thought it was the right thing to do?

Not knowing right from wrong is an insanity defense but otherwise it's not the issue for intent.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

ok, then he was insane.

Well, there may be something to that, he does sometimes get insane prices.

[swarmee]

I'm very confused by all this talk. Remember, PWCC has been selling cards from approximately 10 card doctors, passed through PSA, Beckett, and SGC. All of them are at fault.
If PSA doesn't pay out to the victims on their grade guarantees, there will be just as many threads on them. PSA can still claim ignorance in passing the doctored cards as long as they pay out on their policies or have PWCC do it.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Why you are sniping at someone doing his best to criticize fraud in the hobby we all presumably love is beyond me at this point, David.

Because the fraud is being perpetrated by multiple parties and you only choose to focus on one of those parties. And don't tell me to read your other posts about how you blame PSA too. I've read them. Words are one thing, actions are another. You could have included PSA in this poll too if you really thought they share equally in the blame.

Hypothetical question. Let's say YOU had the power to successfully prosecute ONLY ONE of these parties and get a conviction - the other two skate. Who would you choose? Brent? Gary? PSA?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Because the fraud is being perpetrated by multiple parties and you only choose to focus on one of those parties. And don't tell me to read your other posts about how you blame PSA too. I've read them. Words are one thing, actions are another. You could have included PSA in this poll too if you really thought they share equally in the blame.

Hypothetical question. Let's say YOU had the power to successfully prosecute ONLY ONE of these parties and get a conviction - the other two skate. Who would you choose? Brent? Gary? PSA?

Gary.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Because the fraud is being perpetrated by multiple parties and you only choose to focus on one of those parties. And don't tell me to read your other posts about how you blame PSA too. I've read them. Words are one thing, actions are another. You could have included PSA in this poll too if you really thought they share equally in the blame.

Hypothetical question. Let's say YOU had the power to successfully prosecute ONLY ONE of these parties and get a conviction - the other two skate. Who would you choose? Brent? Gary? PSA?

What’s PSA’s crime?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by calvindog

What’s PSA’s crime?

I don't know about NY, but in TX it's against the law to take money for a service you didn't provide.

[drmondobueno]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

You're being ridiculous. You say this...



... but then only include PWCC in your poll. If they're all share in the blame equally, why not include them equally? If they're all equal, why would you do business with one and not the other? I don't get that.

But I do get this. Your poll proves Jesse right. It really is a mob mentality.

+1.

First post in quite a while. What have I missed? Certainly not much.

[Leon]

Taking out the top line of the poll, since they weren't customers to start with, it is close to 50/50 who will buy/undecided vs won't do business again. BTW., I think a LOT of people share Jesse's views but won't voice them due to what has transpired in this thread. Members piling on. (and in their mind rightfully so)....but it is still piling on. Trust me on that.

Peter- you know how I feel from our conversations on the phone.

Here is the one thing I have thought, and like Jesse, could absolutely be wrong.

Lets say Brent KNEW he was selling altered cards from Moser. I think that is a given. What isn't a given, is that he actually thought what he was doing was wrong., By almost all of his statements it seems he was drinking Moser's Kool Aid about what is allowable or not. Still guilty but not quite the same.
If I were his lawyer my first defense exhibit would be everything Brent has said. To me, and I think the law pertaining to sentences (at least), there is a difference between knowingly doing something wrong and doing something wrong but not knowing it was wrong when you did it. I am NOT defending any actions, only stating a point of view. And I am not saying Brent/PWCC is innocent, I am just saying, in my view, there is a reasonable chance, based on what I have seen and my very recent conversations with Brent, that he thought he wasn't doing anything wrong. On the other hand Moser knew what he was doing was wrong ie... Specific Intent. And I think PSA needs to step up their game a whole lot.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

Taking out the top line of the poll, since they weren't customers to start with, it is close to 50/50 who will buy/undecided vs won't do business again. BTW., I think a LOT of people share Jesse's views but won't voice them due to what has transpired in this thread. Members piling on. (and in their mind rightfully so)....but it is still piling on. Trust me on that.

Peter- you know how I feel from our conversations on the phone.

Here is the one thing I have thought, and like Jesse, could absolutely be wrong.

Lets say Brent KNEW he was selling altered cards from Moser. I think that is a given. What isn't a given, is that he actually thought what he was doing was wrong., By almost all of his statements it seems he was drinking Moser's Kool Aid about what is allowable or not. Still guilty but not quite the same.
If I were his lawyer my first defense exhibit would be everything Brent has said. To me, and I think the law, there is a difference between knowingly doing something wrong and doing something wrong but not knowing it was wrong when you did it. I am NOT defending any actions, only stating a point of view. And I am not saying Brent/PWCC is innocent, I am just saying, in my view, there is a reasonable chance, based on what I have seen and my very recent conversations with Brent, that he thought he wasn't doing anything wrong. On the other hand Moser knew what he was doing was wrong. And I think PSA needs to step up there game a whole lot.

You're tying yourself in knots Leon. Gary did not convince him trimming and recoloring and sharpening corners were OK. I promise you.

Agreed on Gary and PSA.

[Leon]

I didn't say that. Brent has always told me he thought trimming was wrong and adding anything to a card was wrong.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You're tying yourself in knots Leon. Gary did not convince him trimming and recoloring and sharpening corners were OK. I promise you.

Agreed on Gary and PSA.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by leon

i didn't say that. Brent has always told me he thought trimming was wrong and adding anything to a card was wrong.

QED. He knew what Gary did, trust me. Was he alone? No, not at all, many people did and do the same thing, to some extent for Gary and for many other card doctors. But that doesn't excuse Brent. He knowingly sold altered cards for money. He knew it was wrong. It isn't any more complicated than that.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Leon

Lets say Brent KNEW he was selling altered cards from Moser. I think that is a given. What isn't a given, is that he actually thought what he was doing was wrong

I don't think that's a defense...


Counselor

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

I don't think that's a defense...


Counselor

As I posted it's actually an insanity defense, but other than Leon I don't think anyone else is going there.

The notion being that if you are insane and don't have the ability to differentiate right from wrong, you can't form the requisite criminal intent. Distillation of a complex topic.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

As I posted it's actually an insanity defense, but other than Leon I don't think anyone else is going there.

The notion being that if you are insane and don't have the ability to differentiate right from wrong, you can't form the requisite criminal intent. Distillation of a complex topic.

I should have said it is a mitigating circumstance.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

I should have said it is a mitigating circumstance.

That is a sentencing issue. You really should quit.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

That is a sentencing issue. You really should quit.

I did realize that.
On the other hand, I think if you keep going at the pace you are, you are going to over take me in number of posts. LOL