T206 Reference / Reflections.....Tuesday Nite Trivia

[sreader3]

Ted,

Great story. Joe was a character. We had some good laughs on the phone before he passed. He was super friendly one-on-one. And, he had the ONLY copy of Schulte (Front View) Piedmont 350 in existence! (As you know he also had the Doyle Error). For years, Joe kept insisting on our calls that he had a copy of the then unconfirmed Schulte (Front View) with Piedmont 350 but could not figure out how to send me a scan! I believed he had the card, but was blown-away that he didn't have a scanner (or at least couldn't figure out how to use it). He was old school -- which is actually endearing considering we are talking about old baseball cards that are cherished across generations.

Good stuff.

Scot

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hi Scot

Joe P. was quite a character, here's my story. In the early 1980's, I published several articles in Bob Lemke's BASEBALL CARDS magazine regarding 1948 - 1953 BOWMAN BB & FB
sets. There were variations and certain printing anomalies regarding cards in these sets that were not well understood in the hobby back then....and, I clarified them.

Joe P. was a serious collector of these sets, and when he read my articles, he thought I was a "genius". We met at the 1984 National in New Jersey. He was such a friendly guy who
could talk about the various aspects of sports cards for hours.

Twenty years later when I joined the Net54 forum, and began posting my collecting experiences and ideas regarding the T206 set, Joe turned against me by telling me that "I didn't
know what I was talking about". When I posted some of my early theory's (or surveys), Joe would respond with negative comments. If I did not respond to his posted comments, he
would then call me at home and tell me in no uncertain terms that I was wrong. And, there was no way that I could converse with him in a meaningful manner.

Joe had a good life, in the Military, Airlines, and as an Actor. I like to think of Joe when we first met in the 1980's. And, then again in the 1990's at Sotheby's (when they conducted
the auction that sold the "Gretzky Wagner").


TED Z
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[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *




Expanding on the A-B-C-D sub-set, Darren (posts #65 & 73) of T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection" added the 1910 COUPON cards, whose backs are
identical to the stylized design of the A-B-C-D cards. Providing us proof that the timeline of 1910 COUPON (T213-1) set was issued Spring / Summer of 1910.


The blue Chase is my favorite T206 subject. If a DRUM card of Mr. Chase ever shows up, I might have a chance to complete this A - B - C - C - D sub-set.






TED Z
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[tedzan]


* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *





There has been much controversy on this forum as to whether the 1910 COUPON (T213-1) cards belong to the T206 "family". And, much of this is due to mis-information.
So, here are the facts.... as Detective Sergeant Joe Friday (from the TV series, Dragnet) would ask...." Just the facts, man ? "......

The Macon (Georgia) Telegraph newspaper was running advertisements introducing ATC's COUPON cigarette brand in the Spring of 1910. And, as shown, in the prior post
here, the 1910 COUPON cards' backs were printed with the same stylized design as the backs of the AMERICAN BEAUTY, BROAD LEAF, CYCLE, and DRUM cards (which we
know were issued in the Spring / Summer of 1910). The group of 48 subjects (Major Leaguers) were selected from an early print run of the 350-only series (illustrated in
the 48-card array shown here). And, the Southern Association subjects (20 cards) were printed from the 48 - Southern Leaguers in the T206 set. Furthermore, unlike the
T213-2 and T213-3 cards (with blue captions), the 1910 COUPON cards' captions were printed with Brown ink.

The minor exception with the 1910 COUPON (with respect to the T206 cards) is that American Litho printed the 1910 COUPON cards on "thinner" cardboard. This was done
simply because these cards were not intended to serve as Cigarette pack " stiffeners ". The initial marketing of the COUPON cigarette brand was not in packs, instead these
cigarettes were packaged in the standard cigarette cartons (11" x 3" x 2") of that era, which were labelled " COUPON Cigarettes ", and contained 100's of cigarettes. The
1910 Coupon cards were placed inside these cartons, or "spot-glued" on the outside of the carton (indicative of the red Cobb's paper loss on its back, as shown below).

Jefferson Burdick didn't have the benefit of the "Internet" when he included the 1910 COUPON set in with his classification of the T213-2 and T213-3 sets which were cards
issued 1914 - 1915 (his stated timeline). It's my opinion that Burdick would have included the T213-1 in his classification of the T206's, had he known what we now know.
Furthermore, we now know that the T213-2 and T213-3 cards were actually issued 1914 - 1919.

Click on this thread for the 1910 COUPON checklist.... FYI....1910 COUPON checklist (T213-1)


1910 COUPON (T213-1) Major League (48) subjects







The Six Super Prints are seldom seen with the 1910 COUPON advertisement.

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TED Z
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[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *





Jim Blumenthal started the "ball rolling" regarding the Ty Cobb/TY COBB card when he posted this thread in T2006...... Senator Russel's tobacco card collection......
Jim never waivered in his belief that this Ty Cobb card should have been classified as a T206.

Seven years ago this month, Jon Canfield posted this Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb thread that sparked some spirited discussion......including information revealing that the Ty Cobb
Cut Plug Smoking Tobacco was marketed in the Spring of 1910...... What We Have Learned About Ty Cobbs With a Ty Cobb Back
Check-it-out






TED Z
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[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *





This project has been a work in progress on Net54 since 2005. Additional inputs (or corrections) to these checklists are greatly appreciated.

In Jan 2011, for ease of access, I consolidated into a single thread the T206 front/back surveys which were previously conducted on Net54.
Furthermore, included is the 1910 COUPON (T213-1) and RED CROSS (T215-1) checklists, as these sets fall under the "T206 rubric" in that
they are White-Bordered, Brown-Captioned Tobacco cards printed and issued by American Lithographic within the 1909 - 1911 timeline.

And included is the Ty Cobb card with TY COBB back (issued Spring/Summer 1910), since it also conforms to the above stated T206 rubric.







T206 confirmed front/back surveys with respect to T-brand.

AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 & 460

BROAD LEAF 350 & 460

BROAD LEAF 460

CAROLINA BRIGHTS

CYCLE 350 & 460

DRUM

EL PRINCIPE de GALES

Brown HINDU

Red HINDU

LENOX

OLD MILL

PIEDMONT

POLAR BEAR

SOVEREIGN

SWEET CAPORAL

TOLSTOI

UZIT


1910 COUPON (T213-1)

1910-1912 RED CROSS (T215-1)

Ty Cobb / "TY COBB" Tobacco



TED Z
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[Rich Falvo]

Thanks to Ted and all the others who contribute to these general knowledge threads. They are a very valuable resource, especially for new collectors.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *



Pictured here are the 6 major T206 cards missing in Sen. Russell's near complete set


Imagine pulling a Joe Doyle Nat'l card from a Piedmont pack when you were a teenager. Or, your Dad's visit to Atlanta in 1910 acquiring a Ty Cobb/TY COBB card for you ? ?

One of the most unique T206 collections in the hobby is on display at the University of Georgia (Athens). Former Georgia Senator Richard Russell's collection of approx. 1000
tobacco cards were donated to Georgia U. in 1983 (along with Russell's historical papers).
Russell was an avid BB fan as a youngster. At the age of 13 (1910), he started smoking cigarettes (Piedmont was the available brand in his area of Georgia). He pulled 100's
of T206 cards from the packs he purchased. Furthermore, Old Mill brand was available in his home town, of which he accumulated 100's of T210 cards. His T206 set has 497
different cards. As depicted in the header illustration above, no Wagner or Plank in his collection. Not unusual, since these two gems were not marketed with Piedmont backs.
Also missing in his set (as shown) are Lajoie, Marquard, Chance, and the Magie error.
His teenage smoking habit came to an abrupt end in Fall of 1911, when his parents enrolled him into Gordon Military Institute. It is my impression that his BB card collecting
also ended at that point (judging from the fewer number of T205 cards in his collection).

For more info, you can check out this thread posted in 2008......Senator Russell's collection incl. Joe Doyle error & Ty Cobb back

And, here's the link to an excellent website regarding Russell's collection...... http://baseballcards.galib.uga.edu/about/


P.S.
In 2008, I became very interested in this story regarding Richard Russell's collection, since I acquired 40 cards (duplicates) from his original collection. A distant relative of his
had consigned approx. 200 cards (mostly T206's) to a dealer in Atlanta (who listed the cards on ebay). She was selling many of his duplicates which she had found in a box in
a desk drawer from Russell's estate. The T206's were all Piedmont 350 backs. Including 7 of them from the "Elite 11" group. I was thrilled to acquire all 7 of these rare cards.
Furthermore, I called the dealer in Atlanta and he was a wealth of information regarding the Russell collection.


TED Z
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[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *



Pictured here are the 6 major T206 cards missing in Sen. Russell's near complete set


WOW ! I am happy to see someone out in the hinterland is interested in this good stuff. I received an email from a Net54 reader who is fascinated with the Russell collection.
One of the questions he asked me...... "Which additional cards are missing from Russell's set ?"

In the above post regarding this collection, I posted 497 different PIEDMONT cards (the number mentioned in the Russell Collection website). However, I double-checked the
cards in this set and my count is 507 different cards. Listed here are the missing 17 cards......

Plank and Wagner (The PIEDMONT 150 cards of these two subjects were printed by American Lithographic, but never issued in cigarette packs).
Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis variations) were printed only with POLAR BEAR backs. POLAR BEAR cigarettes were not marketed in Georgia (circa 1910-1911).
Magie error
Abbaticchio (blue sleeves)
Ball (Cleveland)
Chance (batting)
Davy Jones
Kiernan
Lajoie (with bat)
Manning (pitching)
Marquard (portrait)
McQuillan (ball in hand)
Moriarity
Pfeister (seated)
Stark

Furthermore, Russell's T206 set approaches a master all-PIEDMONT set, since it includes most of the additional PIEDMONT 350 cards of the 150/350 series subjects.


If anyone has anymore questions regarding this set....or questions about Mr. Russell....don't be shy about asking them. I will try to answer them.


TED Z
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[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *



Pictured here are the 6 toughest backs that were printed on the Exclusive 12 cards

The Exclusive 12 story

Feb 2013, I posted a theory regarding 12 subjects in the 460-only series that were exclusively printed on their own sheet. I base this hypothesis on several factors. Foremost
being that these 12 subjects are the only ones in the 460-only series found with red HINDU backs. Furthermore, the availability of the Exclusive 12 with the red HINDU backs
considerably out-numbers any of the 350/460 series cards with red HINDU backs

Also,, while most of the other subjects in the 460-only series were printed with LENOX backs, the Exclusive 12 are LENOX no-prints. DITTO, regarding the PIEDMONT 460 F#42
cards. This tells us that these 12 subjects were printed in a separate press run from their other "cousins" in the 460-only series. Check-out this thread...... The Exclusive 12




Crandall (cap)
Devore
Duffy
Ford
Gandil
Geyer
Hummel
McGraw (glove at hip)
Pfeffer
Sheckard (glove)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Wheat


Illustrated here is my concept of an Exclusive 12 printed sheet....based on American Litho's 19" wide press, and a standard size 19" x 24" cardboard sheet.

.. v ............................................ 19" x 24" sheet .............................................v




More specific info and T-brand back runs regarding the Exclusive 12 group will follow in the next post.


TED Z
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[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *



Pictured here are the 6 toughest backs that were printed on the Exclusive 12 cards


Exactly 13 - T206 backs were printed on each of the Exclusive 12 subjects in the 460-only series. Illustrated here is the complete run of the McGraw cards.

Needless to say, the red HINDU and UZIT are the toughest cards to find in this run. And fortunately, there were no LENOX or PIEDMONT 460 (Factory #42)
cards printed in this group. Incidentally, this McGraw (glove) with UZIT is a brand new find.


. .







Factory #42.....................Factory #42










. . .
Factory #30



Call me "nuts"....or, whatever....but, I'm having fun engaging in a long-term project to complete the back runs of the Exclusive 12 subjects. There
are 156 possible permutations, I now have 123 of them. The UZIT cards are virtually impossible to find, so I don't expect to complete this mission

To date, there are only five Exclusive 12 confirmed UZIT cards......

Crandall
Geyer
Hummel
McGraw
Sheckard


Stay tuned for more.


TED Z
.

[Ronnie73]

Go for it Ted!! Your almost there. I'm only at 41 without trying and no Piedmont or Sweet Caporal's. I'm gonna have to put a little more effort into these. Thank you for all your T206 research.