Topps 1968 Milton Bradley set

[ALR-bishop]

Carlton those card oddities are great

Richard-- I agree with Carlton, there are no Cox or Brinkman variations to the regular 68 set, just the MB versions. And the MB set should in it's entirety be viewed as a variation to the regular 68 set. PSA , unlike SCD, was a long time recognizing the 62 greenies as variations, but the separate printing of them is similar to the MB separate printing

[brightair]

Goheels for the comment, I had no idea that there really were others who were seriously interested in variations when I was working on compiling my lists (which change often, usually as a result of net54 discussions). Now I've learned there are others out there even more compelled than I by these oddities. What fun, we are not alone!

I hope to continue refining and completing these lists, and with the help of this board, should eventually have a helpful guide, at least for the novice.

Thanks also for the info. Now if I get it right, there are both white and yellow team Cox and Brinkman regulars and just yellow team MBs, is that correct?

Further, as one who collects much lower grades than many who post here, I'm curious what people guess average going prices would be for raw MB commons, say in around ex shape. I've the chance to buy a small lot of MB commons and wonder what would be fair - $5@, $10@ or what? I only have a 2011 guide and online info is skimpy and erratic.

I would love to make progress with this set!

Any help appreciated!

brightair
Richard D

[brightair]

Al - ok, if you are right, then my SC which lists both variations for Cox and Brinkman in the regular set, must be including the yellow team MB variations as part of the regular set, if only doing so for just these cards.

This is confusing, because then they go on to list the MB subset with Cox and Brinkman yellow team cards, as if now there is a third variation of these players' cards (and I am not counting the blue circles pictured above).

But if I am understanding you correctly, it is now making some sense.

Thanks again!

[4reals]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

Carlton those card oddities are great

I agree, great variations Carlton, very cool!

[savedfrommyspokes]

Richard, a thank you from me also for your list of variations.....between you, Carlton and several others here on net54, all of you have helped my variation collection flourish.

I have not openly sold a BB MB card in years, as before I started this set myself, Carlton was the recipient of my BB MB cards. However, I have sold some of the MB FB cards over the years...my recollection is that they have basically sold for twice what the same regular issue card would have sold for. The cards I sold were all ungraded, so there were no pops to worry about.

Here are some of the closed sales on ebay for 67 MB football:

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_saca...H_Sold=1&rt=nc

For 68 MB baseball:

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw...adley&_sacat=0

[ALR-bishop]

I just finished updating my 1959 and 1960 sets to include cards 199-286 (1959) and cards 375- 440( 1960) in both gray and white back. Have not decided whether to do the same for 1953 ( 86-165 ), 1956 ( 1-180)....let alone 1952 (131-190)and 1954 ( 1-50)

I guess if SCD did not list the MBs as a separate set, but instead treated them like the above back differences, or the 62 greenie fronts, they would list the Cox and Brinkman cards as variations, like they do now, but drop the separate listing for the set and just note, like they do for the above set, that certain cards in the set can be found with different backs

But if they did that, they would have to contend with the different backs in the latter series. That would get pretty complicated. If the MBs are added to a master set list for 1968, would that mean you would have to list the alternate latter series backs as well

I think the 1991 Topps sets can be finished with 3 or 4 different backs. Including the Desert Shield set it would seem to have more variant cards than any other Topps set

[steve B]

1991 backs.

Dark logo - not the full set. Only certain sheets
------------------------------------
no reaction to UV
Glows reddish orange
Regular logo - Full set
---------------------------------
No reaction to UV
Glows reddish orange


Misc backs - Not enough info to be sure how many there are.
----------------------------
Cardstock reacts to UV, typically a light bluish glow. - Possibly different cardstock, possibly a bad batch of paper, or contamination from something.

Ink reacts as a very dark red. - Requires a fairly powerful UV light to make it easily visible

Other contrast differences that are really hard to pin down. Most I attribute to plate wear or different levels of inking.


There are front UV differences as well. But I haven't studied them enough to say anything more than they exist. Like some have a clearcoat that reacts a very light green to UV.

So four backs for sure, possibly eight if the reactive paper comes all four ways, and up to 12 if the dark red comes with reactive paper and light or dark logos.

The desert shield should only come one way. But..........It's Topps so maybe not. (I only have a few, 3? 5? I forget)

Steve B

[savedfrommyspokes]

Originally Posted by steve B

The desert shield should only come one way. But..........It's Topps so maybe not. (I only have a few, 3? 5? I forget)

Steve, with many of the DS cards out there currently that are non-legit or "counterfeited", could the few you have that come up different be some of the non-legit DS cards?

If so, this could be a way to help distinguish between legit and some of the non-legit DS cards. With as few of the DS cards produced (5000 sets?), you would think the print run would have likely been on the same type of sheets.

[ALR-bishop]

Did not mean to sidetrack the MB thread with my reference to 1991. Only was trying to point out the complications of making large chunks of back differences part of master sets

There is prior a thread on DS cards and ways of using backs to distinguish them in the post 80 section. I will try to dig it up

[savedfrommyspokes]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

Did not mean to sidetrack the MB thread with my reference to 1991. Only was trying to point out the complications of making large chunks of back differences part of master sets

There is prior a thread on DS cards and ways of using backs to distinguish them in the post 80 section. I will try to dig it up

Thanks for refocusing the discussion Al...I keep getting distracted thinking about your night in Lubbock.

[steve B]

Sorry for the sidetrack.

I'll have to get out the couple MBs I have and post them as penance.

Steve B

[Exhibitman]

Excellent info. Glad to see someone listed the white gutter miscuts as regular issue. I have a few of those and wondered whether they were MB or not. They were not on the CL but had that white edge.

[Mark70Z]

I really like the look of the Seaver and the Gibson MB cards. Anyone have any good examples of those cards?

[goheels]

Here are some fronts and backs, sorry for the cutoff scans

[Mark70Z]

Thanks for the scans. I really like the look of those cards, especially with the yellow backs! For some reason I "really" like the cards with the All-Star Rookie trophy; it's just really cool to me.

What is the highest grades on those two?

[goheels]

To date, there are 3 Gibson PSA 8s and 3 PSA 7s

One Seaver 8.5, two 8s, one 7.5, two 7s--also 2 9Qs (counts as a 7) and 2 8Qs (counts as a 6).

http://www.psacard.com/pop/Detail.aspx?c=95017

Grades are way below those of the regular set. Highest achievable baseball score as of today is 8.46 which I believe is the lowest post WWII score for Topps outside test and Venezuelan issues.

[Rich Klein]

Waiting for Milton B. Lee to chime in here

[ALR-bishop]

I guess that would bring a chime from someone else too

[Mark70Z]

For those who are at the National; any MB's spotted? If not, post some more for viewing (please)...

[goheels]

No National for me this year. I know Tom Agostino who collects these cards avidly is going--he emailed me last week. He only got a handful the last 2 Nationals, so we'll see. If they are there, Tom will find them.

In lieu of that, here's something different. I have concluded that some MB autographs are impossible to find, and I have looked all over. Moose (d 1976) and Willis (d 1977) may have never signed any. I have hit most of the major auto dealers for years and haven't had much luck.

Here are my deceased MB autograph cards, most signed before they passed on:

[Mark70Z]

"Here are my deceased MB autograph cards, most signed before they passed on:"

The last sentence of your post stuck me as funny and when I think about it I just kept smiling. So, were some of these cards that you posted signed "after" their passing?!? Sorry, it's probably just my weird sense of humor.

Thanks so much for the autographed MB's; very nice!

By the way, have you had any more of your MB's graded?

[goheels]

Knew it would expose me at some point.

I meant to say that I had gotten most of these autos while they were living, most were very generous autograph signers. A few I got posthumously.

I know you are a huge O's fan--I have never seen one of Belanger autographed (d 1998 of lung cancer). If you ever run across one I am highly interested.

My personal favorite is Dave Kocourek's card. He signed this for me before he developed severe dementia. Dave suffered with this for almost a decade before dying of it in 2013. I corresponded with his now widow for years. The common link is she was one of the major litigants against the NFL along with John Mackey's widow in the concussion settlement.

Two of my patients are former NFL players and as part of that class action lawsuit I sent their records to Ron Mix. (Fortunately they haven't had any memory issues despite playing over 10 years in the league). Ron got his law degree from USC I think while he was still playing. There is an army of lawyers on both sides but he is the main one. He graciously signed a couple of MBs for me and we spoke several times. He is a notoriously difficult autograph to obtain.

[Mark70Z]

I may be a tad bit weird, but I really like those football cards with the slight showing of the '69 MB baseball cards. Really lets you know they are MB cards.

I'll keep an eye out on the auto Belanger. As far as I know he didn't sign too much anyway; so, he would be a toughie for sure and who knows if he ever signed any of the MB's. A lot of the autographs that are authenticated, with his signature, don't look too good to me. Maybe he just rushed through the autograph, but it doesn't look good. I think I personally only have one autograph of him and it's on an 8X10 picture with the O's infield included.

[goheels]

1. Opinion sought on the PSA 8 Rex Mirich (football) MB now on ebay as a BIN. It is clearly NOT an MB as many have pointed out. PSA still makes mistakes with these cards although they are getting better.

2. Another asked about the BB, FB, Hot rod sets on Huggins and Scott that end soon--very unusual to see hot rod cards offered anywhere. Huggins and Scott seem to have more experience handling MBs than other auction houses, selling a Win a Card game every year or so and selling an occasional baseball or football subset. I would trust them as a solid auction house.

3. SCD grading MBs--none now, maybe in the future, they have been approached by at least two collectors on this. Beckett has only graded a few since PSA started.

[savedfrommyspokes]

Originally Posted by goheels

2. Another asked about the BB, FB, Hot rod sets on Huggins and Scott that end soon--very unusual to see hot rod cards offered anywhere. Huggins and Scott seem to have more experience handling MBs than other auction houses, selling a Win a Card game every year or so and selling an occasional baseball or football subset. I would trust them as a solid auction house.

I thought that those MB sets were part of your consignments Carlton, along with your 68 Topps holiday rack pack with the WL McCormick on the front

[goheels]

Originally Posted by savedfrommyspokes

I thought that those MB sets were part of your consignments Carlton, along with your 68 Topps holiday rack pack with the WL McCormick on the front

They are, I just didn't want to comment on my cards but answered the question talking about Bill Huggins who I think is a very trusty guy for the hobby. The guy who emailed me has a VG set of BB cards that he is thinking about selling down the road and wanted my opinion auction house vs ebay.

[savedfrommyspokes]

They are very nice looking sets Carlton...I would have been shocked if these sets were not out of your collection. Out of curiosity, were there any specific factor(s) that compelled you to offer the BB, FB and HR sets separate of each other rather than offer them altogether as a single set, or was the decision left up to H&S?

[goheels]

Larry, I figured some guys already had the baseball and would look to branch out to the FB or HR sets. Some collectors already have a BB set and would likely not want to buy those 77 cards. I thought there would be some collectors that knew nothing about this set before the SCD article and would want only baseball.

As one who loves collecting I think the best way to collect this set is to go to shows and card shops and check your own binders.

I have helped fellow collectors finish their MB sets or MB team sets over the years. One guy collected the Topps Rookie Trophy cards so he only wanted the Seaver, Reggie Smith, Carew cards. I always enjoy knowing what others like to collect.

If anyone is interested in something they could always PM me.

[Mark70Z]

"If anyone is interested in something they could always PM me."

Could "always" use a centered "8" once you get that Brooksie "9"...

[Mystery Card Shopper]

I have been collecting these cards (BB/FB/HR) for four plus years and have accumulated a large inventory(very difficult) of raw and PSA graded cards. I will be liquidating most of my inventory starting in January on Ebay. If any one is interested in purchasing cards directly from me prior, please email me at: finlcareer@aol.com Thank You, Tom....

[cardinalcollector]

I am reviving this Milton Bradley thread to get comments on this current Ebay auction with "unknown Milton Bradley examples" and this comment by the seller:

I have concluded that due to the vast rarity of Milton Bradley's that the supposed "uncut sheet depiction" online is not 100% accurate nor is the believed checklist of 1968 Milton cards.

I'm not trying to dog the seller, just looking for feedback from other MB collectors. Personally I feel the set has been documented perfectly by Carlton Miller.

Link: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1968-Milton-...item43d3978695

Randy

[Exhibitman]

Nope, calling BS on that auction. The MB set is well documented because there have been enough unopened games hitting the market. Also well known was Topps' propensity to use the same stock in other series of the baseball set. I have several later series cards that look just like MB cards that are simply not part of the set. Topps did much the same thing in the 1968 FB set, which has distinct card stocks, a very white stock that went into pack products and two cream toned stocks that went into vending.

[ALR-bishop]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Nope, calling BS on that auction. The MB set is well documented because there have been enough unopened games hitting the market. Also well known was Topps' propensity to use the same stock in other series of the baseball set. I have several later series cards that look just like MB cards that are simply not part of the set. Topps did much the same thing in the 1968 FB set, which has distinct card stocks, a very white stock that went into pack products and two cream toned stocks that went into vending.

+1. Carlton is the expert without doubt. Confused sellers or scammers have been trying to sell later series yellow backs as MBs forever. Anyone who collects both the 68 set and the MB set knows better.

[horzverti]

Originally Posted by cardinalcollector

I am reviving this Milton Bradley thread to get comments on this current Ebay auction with "unknown Milton Bradley examples" and this comment by the seller:

I have concluded that due to the vast rarity of Milton Bradley's that the supposed "uncut sheet depiction" online is not 100% accurate nor is the believed checklist of 1968 Milton cards.

I'm not trying to dog the seller, just looking for feedback from other MB collectors. Personally I feel the set has been documented perfectly by Carlton Miller.

Link: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1968-Milton-...item43d3978695

Randy

A few weeks ago the seller and I had a conversation about these cards through eBay messages. He seems like a nice guy and he really feels that he has discovered "new" MBs, but he hasn't. He shows the backs of known MB cards numbers on the left half of his first image of the backs of the cards. The cards that he feels are previously unknown MBs are on the right. Given the light source from the left, the cards on the left are more brightly lit than the cards on the right side, giving the appearance of MBs with more yellow card backs. I am not sure the cards on the left are MBs at all. They are most likely regular issue cards which just appear more yellow because of the lighting. If you look at his other photos of the card backs where the cards are rearranged, you'll notice that correct MB card numbers are actually more gold (not yellow at all) than his "new discovery" cards. Probably no MBs in entire lot. I politely suggested that he pull the auction, but he must have missed that part of my message.

[ALR-bishop]

Curt--I also had an offline conversation with him. Maybe he is just another confused seller. He is certainly not the first to try selling later series 68 cards as MBs. Although you would think if you were going to announce a new previously unknown group of MBs you would first research the set . I sent him a link to this article

http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEV...CBFtSyRiouMV0-

If he leaves them up as is, he is something other than confused

[goheels]

That's all there is, folks. Took me about two years to fully piece all the unique ends together. Each of the borders has a unique pattern. The BB mesh are very difficult to tell apart. It took an awful lot of off centered cards with borders to do this.

Later this week I am shipping close to 800 cards to PSA, both MBs and regular 67 FB and 68 BB for permament/temporary loan for their research purposes. Most of what I am sending MB wise are cards with considerable borders. I am sending them my more spectacular miscuts as well.

Some of my fellow MB collectors are having difficulty getting MBs graded as such. This should help that out. PSA is balking at some of the darker yellow MBs.

I have noted before that about 60% of MBs look a little darker than the 40% that are a brighter yellow. All are clearly distinct from the regular issue. It has taken a while, but PSA has seemed receptive to my input.

I also let them know that Probstein's current auction with a signed Cleon Jones autograph is not an MB.

There has been enough data on this board to note that only 132 MBs exist. I have personally opened six games (not counting the one I had as a kid) and out of the 600 or so cards from that one would expect 4.58 of each card (600/132). I have a few cards with 3, a couple with 7, mostly though 4 or 5 of each card.

Carlton

[cardinalcollector]

Carlton, I have been a fan of Milton Bradleys since 1968 when my Dad bought the game for me. Bob Gibson was my favorite player and I was a thrilled 7 year old when I found him in the Win-a-card game.

I was a fan of MBs long before they showed up in the price guides. Thanks for your research and "legitimizing" this important issue.

Randy Trierweiler

[Exhibitman]

I was looking through my cards today and realized that I had a Flood MB sitting there. Gotta pay attention!

[Harliduck]

Just read the whole thread, found it all super cool. Went and checked on my complete 68 set and only found one with a completely different colored back, and I see this card on the sheet example. Is this a MB card? I am hoping I have at least one to represent in my set...








Thanks for any comments. Again, the back completely stands out as a different color of yellow...

[Exhibitman]

Well the top border is consistent with the sheet shown on the first page.

[JollyElm]

Originally Posted by Harliduck

Just read the whole thread, found it all super cool. Went and checked on my complete 68 set and only found one with a completely different colored back, and I see this card on the sheet example. Is this a MB card? I am hoping I have at least one to represent in my set...








Thanks for any comments. Again, the back completely stands out as a different color of yellow...

Whenever you post a possible MB card, it's a must that you post a 'regular' 1968 Topps card beside it, so the back color differences will jump out and be easily seen by whoever is viewing the thread. That is the clearest indicator for this set. When a card is posted by its lonesome, the yellow/gold/orange aspects of it are hard to determine for sure.

But with the white border at top and your comments on the obvious color differences, it definitely looks like you have an MB.

[GoldenAge50s]

Fascinating subject! I just had to go thru my '68's & found just 5 that I'm sure are MB's

Here is what I have that I didn't know I had!

[ALR-bishop]

Oh my gosh Fred, you and Adam are closet MBs

[Exhibitman]

Does anyone have scans of uncut sheets of 1968 Topps series 1 and 2 baseball? That might help answer questions about whether or not a card is an MB card when it shows white on a top or bottom edge. If it is not a border or gutter card on a regular sheet it should not have any white edges.

[Mystery Card Shopper]

Check the Buy/Sell section if you are looking to purchase any 1968 Topps Milton Bradley cards. Thank You.

[Mystery Card Shopper]

Please check the B/S/T section as I'm selling 1968 Topps Milton Bradley PSA and raw Baseball and Football Cards.

[AFLfan]

Hi All. I am new to this site, and came here looking for info/confirmation on Milton Bradley cards.

I guess that I had always known about the 1967 Milton Bradley football cards, but I'd never really learned anything about them. I recall reading that you could tell the difference between '67 Topps and '67 Milton Bradley by a strip of brown on the card front top or bottom, which denoted that it was a Milton Bradley.

I am a collector of autographed AFL cards, and yesterday I was scrolling through ebay and saw an autographed '67 Paul Lowe with the brown strip on the bottom. The guy only wanted $7, so I bought it without really thinking about it. Then I get home and do a bit of reading about '67 Milton Bradley, and I see that the real way to tell the difference between the sets is that the Milton Bradleys have a stronger yellow color on the card back.

I went and looked through my signed '67 set, and lo and behold, I think I have 8 Milton Bradleys that I thought were Topps. Now it looks like I have to replace the Milton Bradleys in my set with Topps cards. I've already got dupes of a few of them, so those slots are already full, but replacing a signed '67 Joe Namath is a bummer.

But can someone with more knowledge than I confirm that these cards are Milton Bradleys and not Topps? Thank you.

I guess on a positive note I'm nearly a third of the way through a signed '67 Milton Bradley set.

[goheels]

Those are all MB cards, for sure. The autographs look great!

[ALR-bishop]

I think you are good to go ALFfan. No one knows more about these than Carlton

[AFLfan]

Thank you! Carlton and I have already been sending messages back and forth. It's kind of funny (or sad, depending) that the crappy $7 purchase I made yesterday just made my signed 1967 Topps set incomplete, and started a tough new project (signed Milton Bradley football). I should stay away from ebay.