T206 Double-Prints....also, T205's, GOUDEY's, BOWMAN's, TOPPS D-P's

[tedzan]

Figuring out the sheet arrangement of how American Lithographic (ALC) printed the T206's is not rocket science, if you do the math. Evident is the factor "6" in the make-up
of the various series.......

150 Series = 156 subjects

350 Series = 204 subjects

Super-Prints = 6 subjects

350/460 Series = 60 subjects

460 Series = 46 subjects (+ two Double-Prints)

So. Lge Series = 48 subjects


Therefore, I contend that ALC formatted 12 cards across their sheet. I say this because research has shown that a 19" wide printing press was used by ALC to print T206's
and T205's. Therefore, a 19" wide sheet of cardboard includes 12 T206 size cards across the sheet. Depending on series configurations, sheets comprising of 36, 48, 60, 72
and 96 cards (and perhaps higher multiples of 12) were printed.
As will be illustrated in the next posts in this thread (GOUDEY, BOWMAN & TOPPS), the printing machinery dictates the the sheet configurations. Therefore, if the number of
subjects are less than the number of cards that a complete sheet will accomodate....the standard printing practice is to include Double-Prints (D-P) to fill out that sheet.

Having access to a large T206 survey (15,000+ cards) for quite a number of years, the numbers in this survey suggest to me that the following subjects (with respect their
series) must have been D-P.


150 Series ...... simulated sheet of 36 cards including the 34 subjects (SWEET CAP 150, Factory #649 overprints), of which Powers and Matty (white cap) were D-P


DOUBLE-PRINTS.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...... Powers .................. Matty



350 Series

Six Super Prints......thanks to Scot Reader's great research as documented in his book titled "Inside T206".

Furthermore, these 6 subjects were extended into the 460 Series and were D-P on certain sheets.






460 Series

Mgr. Duffy and Russ Ford were Double-Printed to fill out a 48-card sheet that includes the 46 subjects in the 460-Only series.





The 10 subjects noted here that appear to have been Double-Printed (as indicated by their numbers in large T206 surveys) are just a start. Most likely there are more D-P.

Your inputs on this subject matter are appreciated.


TED Z

[tedzan]

The 1933 GOUDEY set was printed on 10 sheets comprising of 24-cards each. Goudey advertised on the backs of each card.."This is one of a series of 240
Baseball Stars". However, in 1933 Goudey issued 239 cards. Evident in the 6th sheet (shown here) is the DOUBLE-PRINT of the #144 Babe Ruth card to fill
out this 24-card sheet.

6th sheet (cards #143-165)





Furthermore......

For years, much has been made of the Lajoie (#106) not issued in 1933; but, the bigger story is that the GOUDEY Gum Co. played a clever (nasty) market-
ing trick on the collectors of these cards during the Spring/Summer of '33. Cards #97, 98, 99, 128, 129, and 142 were issued in the Fall of '33. Cards #107,
108, 109, 110, 111, 112, 113, 114, 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, and 127 were not issued till circa November 1933. Here is a diagram of the World Series
sheet. It includes Giants and Washington players that were in the 1933 W.S. The write-ups on backs of some of these cards reflect '33 W.S. events.

10th sheet (intermix of Low #'s & Hi #'s)




Some examples........







1934 GOUDEY printing trivia

In the Fall of 1934, Goudey printed the missing card (#106) from the 1933 GOUDEY set on their Hi # series (cards #73 - 96) sheet. Card #106 just
happened to be Nap Lajoie. Goudey modified their printing format (24-card sheets) and printed a special 25-card sheet to include this Lajoie card.

The Lajoie card wasn't issued in 1934 Gum packs with the other '34 GOUDEY cards. To acquire the Lajoie card, you had to mail the Goudey Gum Co.
and request it.


2nd sheet (24-cards)




3rd sheet (24-cards)




Hi # sheet (25 cards) .... #73 - 96 + #106





Stay tuned....more insight into various BB sets' printing to follow in the next posts.


TED Z

[tedzan]

Probably the most "famous" Double-Printed (DP) card is the 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle (card #311). The 1952 Topps cards were printed on 100-card sheets. The
track width of their printing press was 54 inch, resulting in the printing of two adjacent 100-card sheets. The 1952 Topps Hi # sheet includes 97 subjects (cards
#311-407). Therefore, to fill out a 100-card sheet, Topps had to DP three of their subjects. Very smartly, they selected the 3 most popular players of that era....
Jackie Robinson, Bobby Thomson, and Mickey Mantle.

The printing of the Mantle cards by the use of the two plates resulted in some minor differences. These have been identified as Type 1 and Type 2. Illustrated
here are these differences........



.... Type 2 .................................................. ............................................. Type 1
....

...../\---- glossy arm -----/\............../\......../\---- rough border on name box



Next post will return to PRE-WAR printing practices.


TED Z

[g_vezina_c55]

nice post ! I love the 33 goudey story and the fact that goudey don't print the card 106 in 1933.

[hangman62]

Ted,
Very kind of you to share your card knowledge

Ral G

[obcbobd]

Great Stuff.

Thanks Ted!

Bob

[Cardboard Junkie]

There are actually 2 diff "types" of all 3 double printed hi# 52's Also differences in "cropping on the front of low # 52s depending on the back color.
The easiest way to tell is the direction the threads point on the baseball circled number on the back of the card. One type is pointed right the other type is pointed left. aloha, dave.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Cardboard Junkie

There are actually 2 diff "types" of all 3 double printed hi# 52's Also differences in "cropping on the front of low # 52s depending on the back color.
The easiest way to tell is the direction the threads point on the baseball circled number on the back of the card. One type is pointed right the other type is pointed left. aloha, dave.

This is very true....and, thanks for noting it.

I did not want to go thru all the "nitty gritty' regarding the three '52 TOPPS Hi # D-P cards because most on this section of Net54 frown on Post-War stuff.

Anyhow, I did point out the picture differences in the Mantle card since I thought they were noteworthy.


Best regards,

TED Z

[tedzan]

Nelson

This thread covers both your favorite sets....T206's & 1933 GOUDEY's.

Thanks for the compliment.


TED Z

[tedzan]

Ral G....Bob Donaldson


Thanks for the nice words, guys.

TED Z

[tedzan]

This mis-printed back on the Collins card clearly indicates that the adjacent card is also Collins. Could it be the Collins (mouth closed) version....which has the same back ?

Perhaps, YES. However, I think the Mouth Open version was printed in a different series than the Mouth Closed card. Maybe some of our Net54 T205 experts will chime in here and clarify which Collins card they think was printed adjacent to this one.







TED Z

[tedzan]

Printing of the 1948 BOWMAN set is quite interesting, as the printer took their 36-card production sheet and produced a 48-card set. In their 1st press runs
they printed cards #1 - 36. Then in their 2nd press runs they modified their printing plates by replacing 12 cards in the first group of 36 with cards #37 - 48.
The uncut 36-card sheet shown here is from the 2nd press runs where cards #37 - 48 are interspersed among the lower number cards.

Thereby, this process created Double-Prints of 24 low numbers....Single-Prints of 12 low numbers....and, another set of Single-Prints of the 12 high numbers.






TED Z

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by tedzan

This mis-printed back on the Collins card clearly indicates that the adjacent card is also Collins. Could it be the Collins (mouth closed) version....which has the same back ?

Perhaps, YES. However, I think the Mouth Open version was printed in a different series than the Mouth Closed card. Maybe some of our Net54 T205 experts will chime in here and clarify which Collins card they think was printed adjacent to this one.








TED Z

Hey Andrew....where are you when I need the benefit of your T205 expertise ?

DITTO....for Joshua.


TED Z

[tedzan]

The 1949 Bowman set was quite puzzling to collectors of these cards in the 1950's - 1960's - 1970's - and early 1980's. The mystery involved 12 redundant
Low # cards that confused anyone trying to complete what was advertised as a 240-card set.

1st scan here depicts an uncut 36-card sheet....typical of the 7 sheets that were printed in the production of this set.





Now, consider this....7 x 36 cards = 252 cards. But, aren't there only 240 numbered subjects in this set ?

The Bowman printers filled in the additional 12 slots in the printing of their 7th sheet by including 12 subjects from their lower # sheets. The first 6 (36-card)
sheets of the 1949 Bowman set have been found. An uncut 7th sheet has yet to be found; therefore, I have diagrammed its card arrangement here. The 12
cards enclosed in red are the "re-printed" cards. Furthermore, these D-P cards were modified to conform to the design of the other 24 cards on this sheet.






One of the most popular cards in the 1949 BOWMAN set is this card of "Satchell" Paige. Trust me, when us "dinosaurs" (as kids) opened up a 5-cent Bowman
waxpack in the Fall of '49 and found this Paige card, it generated some really great excitement.




Rookie cards of Larry Doby, Bob Lemon, Ed Lopat and Duke Snider were printed on this 7th sheet.


TED Z

[mets41]

Hi Ted--

I remember several years ago we discused your theory on the 1949 Bowman last sheet. Your theory was that there was a sequence of placement of the color backgrounds. This showed where the 12 variations (NNOF & SCP) should be placed on the sheet in the factory. Didn't you write an article for one of the baseball card magazines on this subject?

[g_vezina_c55]

nice info again !
This paige card was more rare than other card in the bowman set in 1949 , or the excitment generated by this card was because it was his rookie card ?

thx

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Figuring out the sheet arrangement of how American Lithographic (ALC) printed the T206's is not rocket science, if you do the math. Evident is the factor "6" in the make-up
of the various series.......

........

Having access to a large T206 survey (15,000+ cards) for quite a number of years, the numbers in this survey suggest to me that the following subjects (with respect their
series) must have been D-P.

..........

TED Z

Great stuff, Ted. Experience speaks volumes.

[steve B]

One slight technical correction. The doubleprints would have come from two different positions on the same plate rather than two different plates.

Multiple plates with the same arrangement is possible, and sometimes those may be identifiable if there was more than one. (Actually more than one set of plates)

Steve B

Originally Posted by tedzan

Probably the most "famous" Double-Printed (DP) card is the 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle (card #311). The 1952 Topps cards were printed on 100-card sheets. The
track width of their printing press was 54 inch, resulting in the printing of two adjacent 100-card sheets. The 1952 Topps Hi # sheet includes 97 subjects (cards
#311-407). Therefore, to fill out a 100-card sheet, Topps had to DP three of their subjects. Very smartly, they selected the 3 most popular players of that era....
Jackie Robinson, Bobby Thomson, and Mickey Mantle.

The printing of the Mantle cards by the use of the two plates resulted in some minor differences. These have been identified as Type 1 and Type 2. Illustrated
here are these differences........



.... Type 2 .................................................. ............................................. Type 1
....

...../\---- glossy arm -----/\............../\......../\---- rough border on name box



Next post will return to PRE-WAR printing practices.


TED Z

[steve B]

I posted in the past about an idea I had that the sheets while having more than 12 cards on them likely only had 6 different cards to a sheet, at least for the 150 series. There's a group of cards in the 150's that fits a very tight pattern of backs and is only 13 cards.
Ames hands at chest
Brown chicago
Brown cubs on shirt
Burch batting
Donlin fielding
Doyle throwing
Evers cubs on shirt
Magie
Pattee
Pelty
Reulbach glove showing
Schulte front view
Wagner Pitt



3 of these are obvious rarities, while the rest are approximately equal in difficulty but divide somewhat neatly into two groups.

One of thses cards is much easier than the others, Brown Cubs.

I believe these represent two sheets with an unknown number of cards but of only 6 subjects. One originally included Wagner, the other originally included Magie. When those two cards were pulled, the sets of stones or plates were redone with Brown Cubs filling in the spaces Wagner and Magie had been in.

Overall I think the T206 plate layouts are very complex, including special regional groups and uneven distributions of cards on a single sheet. Especially since there are lots of outlying cases that don't readily fit a pattern held by other cards. Like Powers who is the only single card with a 649 overprint but no 350 series backs.

Steve B

Originally Posted by tedzan

Figuring out the sheet arrangement of how American Lithographic (ALC) printed the T206's is not rocket science, if you do the math. Evident is the factor "6" in the make-up
of the various series.......

150 Series = 156 subjects

350 Series = 209 subjects

Super-Prints = 6 subjects

350/460 Series = 57 subjects (initially planned for 66 subjects)

460 Series = 46 subjects (+ two Double-Prints)

So. Lge Series = 48 subjects


Therefore, I contend that ALC formatted 12 cards across their sheet. I say this because research has shown that a 19" wide printing press was used by ALC to print T206's
and T205's. Therefore, a 19" wide sheet of cardboard includes 12 T206 size cards across the sheet. Depending on series configurations, sheets comprising of 36, 48, 60, 72
cards (and perhaps higher multiples of 12) were printed.
As will be illustrated in the next posts in this thread (GOUDEY, BOWMAN & TOPPS), the printing machinery dictates the the sheet configurations. Therefore, if the number of
subjects are less than the number of cards that a complete sheet will accomodate....the standard printing practice is to include Double-Prints (D-P) to fill out that sheet.

Having access to a large T206 survey (15,000+ cards) for quite a number of years, the numbers in this survey suggest to me that the following subjects (with respect their
series) must have been D-P.


150 Series ...... simulated sheet of 36 cards including 34 subjects of which Powers and Matty (white cap) were D-P


.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ............................. Powers .................. Matty



350 Series

Six Super Prints......thanks to Scot Reader's great research as documented in his book titled "Inside T206".

Furthermore, these 6 subjects were extended into the 460 Series and were D-P on certain sheets.






460 Series

Mgr. Duffy and Russ Ford were Double-Printed to fill out a 48-card sheet that includes the 46 subjects in the 460-Only series.





The 10 subjects noted here that appear to have been Double-Printed (as indicated by their numbers in large T206 surveys) are just a start. Most likely there are more D-P.

Your inputs on this subject matter are appreciated.


TED Z

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by steve B

I posted in the past about an idea I had that the sheets while having more than 12 cards on them likely only had 6 different cards to a sheet, at least for the 150 series. There's a group of cards in the 150's that fits a very tight pattern of backs and is only 13 cards.
Ames hands at chest
Brown chicago
Brown cubs on shirt
Burch batting
Donlin fielding
Doyle throwing
Evers cubs on shirt
Magie
Pattee
Pelty
Reulbach glove showing
Schulte front view
Wagner Pitt


...........Like Powers who is the only single card with a 649 overprint but no 350 series backs.

Steve B

Steve

1st......The Magie (Magee) card is actually a 150/350 series subject, so I would not include with the original group of 12 subjects that you listed.

2nd......The Powers card was intended as a 150/350 series subject. But, his untimely death in April 1909 most likely is the reason his card wasn't
printed with "350 Subjects" backs.


Best regards,

TED Z

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Great stuff, Ted. Experience speaks volumes.

" 6 "

" It's elementary my dear Watson " !

Best regards ole buddy,


TED Z

[steve B]

Magee as a subject would be 150/350, but if I have it right the Magie spelling is 150 only.(And piedmont only at that) I'm looking at it as a separate card rather than as a subject.

The timing makes sense with Powers, but as part of a sheet layout, it's a bit odd. Obviously he was on a sheet that got the 649OP, but not on any sheets that recieved 350 backs.

I think the Powers shows that the sheet layouts were entirely redone for the 350 run, rather than the 150/350 subjects being sheets preprinted and used with different backs during the transition from 150 to 350.


I'm slowly making progress with some of my efforts to narrow down the sheets or at least figure out the number of cards on a sheet. I have saved scans of at least 4 different Magies, and probably closer to 6-8. Hard to do from poor scans. I also have scans of 3 P150s with the plate scratch. plus a few others with identifiable consistent defects on the back.
(Note to those who don't like "variations" -while the different positions on the sheet are different and consistent I prefer calling them "varieties" and don't think they need to be recognized or attract a premium.)

Without access to detailed scans or in person notetaking of thousands of cards I'll be lucky to pin down much of anything, but I'm working on it.

Steve B

Originally Posted by tedzan

Steve

1st......The Magie (Magee) card is actually a 150/350 series subject, so I would not include with the original group of 12 subjects that you listed.

2nd......The Powers card was intended as a 150/350 series subject. But, his untimely death in April 1909 most likely is the reason his card wasn't
printed with "350 Subjects" backs.


Best regards,

TED Z