What is it, exactly, about grading?

[Archive]

Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Some recent threads here have gotten me thinking about the issue of grading in general.

A couple of years ago, I embraced the concept of third-party grading as a consumer. I did this for a couple of reasons. First, I found it necessary to find a way that I could purchase certain cards over the internet without being subjected to the random grading standards that could result in having an EX-MT card described anywhere from VG-EX to MINT. Second, I found that it was easier for me to sell off dupes if they were assessed by a third party. Third, I like the protection that a slab offers. Lastly, when I'm working on a set, I like them all to be presented the same way, and so in some cases, an entire graded set is appealing to me.

Anyway, in reading this board, I discovered that there are a lot of people who are ANTI-grading. The reason I hear most often is that cards are meant to be handled, and not encased in a "plastic tomb." Yet someone made the astute point in another thread that most raw cards are displayed in a plastic tomb of their own - be it a toploader, screw-down, binder sheet, Card Saver, etc. I handle my graded cards all the time, enjoying the artwork and the stats on the back, viewing the ad backs and just staring at them - but I know I'll never have to worry about sneezing on them, or spilling beer on them, or whatever, because they're well-protected in their slabs.

With grading, I personally have gotten to the point where virtually every meaningful card that I acquire gets shipped off for grading at the earliest possible moment. Contrary to what I've read here recently about people who like grading, I don't consider myself a "cert buyer" or a "plastic buyer" or anything like that. Quite the opposite - I consider myself to be a baseball fan with a love for the history of the game, and a love for baseball cards. I love the hobby and was involved with it long before grading services, but I feel that grading services provide a great service to the hobby (as noted in the first paragraph).

So my question: What is it, specifically, about grading that people don't like? I'd like to keep the thread respectful, and I'd love it if it didn't degenerate into a PSA vs. SGC vs. GAI vs. FBI vs. CIA discussion, if at all possible.

Thanks in advance,
-Al

[Archive]

Posted By: Paul

The main thing I dislike about grading is the poor customer service when dealing with them on the phone or email. There is one company that seems to be a little better than the others in that department, but it should be a smoother experience for sure.

[Archive]

Posted By: T206Collector

...but the positives far outweight them.

What most anti-graders will tell you is that the grading phenomena led to a rise in prices, so it was harder to collect what they wanted to collect. There is also a bit of a class struggle when it comes to card collecting, which periodically raises its ugly head on this board, and the grading phenomena feeds into that.

At the end of the day, when someone tells you that cards should be loved outside of plastic, I have a very hard time believing that touching is better than holding in plastic and observing. If you need to touch your cardboard baseball men, you probably need to get out more.

[Archive]

Posted By: Josh K.

I like graded cards and I pretty much use one company exclusively (those of you who know me will also know its no secret which one I use). That being said, it drives me nuts when I get inconsistently graded cards - Ive got some e93s that look like 5s and got 3s, while others look like 3s and got 4s or 5s.

Ok, I admit it, I use PRO exclusively

[Archive]

Posted By: Mike Campbell

For some reason, I seem to be an exception. I have had hundreds of cards graded over the years. All have come back timely, and all have been graded fairly. If I submitted an honest 3 or 4, and it came back graded a 7 or 8, would it please me? Of course not. The whole system would be rotten if that were the case. I can honestly say I have never been disappointed with a grade. Do they make mistakes, and do they make some silly ones? Yes. We have all seen many examples on here. I submitted three "very" rare cards, which they had never graded before. Or handled. Should they have gotten the year right? Of course. They put the wrong year on top. I resubmitted them, and had them back within a very reasonable time period. Ten days or so. And had the correct year on top. And they corrected their population report, to reflect the change. Immediately.

I have no problem with slabbed cards. All the obvious reasons why, have already been stated. I can always free them if I so choose. I have ruined a number of things over the years, by handling them. All very stupid on my part. I choose not to do that with any of my cards. A nationally known dealer, who I have done business with for years, was trying to free a Mantle rookie for resubmission. The box cutter that he was using to pry the slab open, went into the card. And split it in two. So freeing them has it's dangers as well. I will be boiled in oil for saying this in here, but I like the grading services. In spite of their sometimes silly mistakes they make. Never had a major problem.

[Archive]

Posted By: Bill K

I can't justify grading all my pre-war cards because the cost per card isn't worthwhile. The sets I collect or other key type cards get sent in no matter the condition. That's about the only thing I have against it (that's my issue, not the grading companies though).

I get mine graded (by SGC) for the same reasons as Al. It keeps the cards secure/safe, they look fantastic with the black surround, and I know if I absolutely had to, I could sell them more easily graded and get more for them.

Since I look at the digial images of my cards much more frequently than holding them, the timeframe to get them back doesn't bother me (although I get anxious).

Bill

My personal collection - http://s47.photobucket.com/albums/f176/fkm_bky/

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff P

Good question!

I have personally never really understood the appeal of raw cards. How does having them graded detract from the card at all? Is it really important for someone to be able to touch and fondle their cards? That's really strange (and creepy) to me.

I simply think a lot of old-school collectors have just collected raw for so many years and are against major changes to the hobby.

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

I do like raw cards and I like graded ones. Most of the relatively expensive ones I have I get graded for various reasons. Making sure (as sure as SGC is) that they are untainted is the biggest concern. Keeping them protected is #2. I have handled a few cards in the last 10 years but I still like to have a 3rd party opinion. It's saved me numerous times. I don't care if you have been doing this for 75 years a 3rd party opinion still isn't bad. So in a nutshell....I like raw cards and graded ones. The one thing I don't like about grading is that the cards are in fact "entombed". I don't think I am too weird but do like to get the "feel" of the old cardboard sometimes. I think I was the very first one that admitted, on this board, that I like to smell them too. Now that's sort of creepy.....Nothing like the smell of old cardboard in the morning !! Or was that the smell of "napuam in the morning?".......good question...

[Archive]

Posted By: John S

From an "old school" collector...99.5% of my collection is raw and will remain so. It has nothing to do with wanting to fondle my cards. After 30 years of collecting cards I guess that I am a little arrogant; why would I believe that someone else, most likely with less experience than myself, would be more proficient at evaluating my collection? With that said I do use SGC occasionally to grade cards to sell. I may have some objections to the third party system, but don't blame it for the ruination of the hobby. Before pointing fingers at others who do not prefer to slab most of their collections, answer the question posed originally. Why do you feel the need to spend money (that could be used to add cards to your collection) to have someone else assign a numerical grade and place your card in a slab?

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

It's not the numerical grade that I look for...it's the other sets of eyes and experience that I like. I understand you have been doing this for 30 years or so. Even in that amount of time do you think you have handled more cards than the senior graders at SGC? Also, even though most folks that are true collectors don't plan on selling their collections, at some point almost all collections change hands. At that time there is no doubt as to which cards, slabbed or unslabbed, will bring more money, given the exact same card. A lot of the old guard feel exactly as you do though, and it's certainly a valid argument....best regards

[Archive]

Posted By: T206Collector

<<Why do you feel the need to spend money (that could be used to add cards to your collection) to have someone else assign a numerical grade and place your card in a slab?>>

1) For cards that may be resold, you get more than your money back for grading cards before selling them -- that equals much more money to be used to add cards to my collection; and

2) For cards that remain in my permanent collection, the nominal grading free preserves the cards well and lends ease to assigning a price to them for insurance purposes. Not to mention the aesthetic beauty of a card encapsulated by SGC and the joy many get from participating in a set registry.

[Archive]

Posted By: Al C.risafulli

"Before pointing fingers at others who do not prefer to slab most of their collections, answer the question posed originally."

I'm definitely not pointing fingers at anyone, as it seems like a silly issue to point fingers over. I legitimately, respectfully asked the question out of sheer curiosity.

As for the answer to your question, I don't think it's a big deal to pay between $5 and $8 to slab a prewar common, or more to slab a HOFer. To me, it's money well-spent, as I'm getting peace of mind, protection, and in many cases, added value. Plus, I enjoy the way they look.

For more expensive items, it's even more of a no-brainer to me. To have a card authenticated, and protected so I can't wreck it with my clumsy hands, is exactly what a knucklehead like me needs. Furthermore, as a HOF type card collector, it's not possible for me to learn everything there is to know about every type card I want to add to my collection before buying ONE card. So without grading, I could get duped over and over again on fakes.

I guess in my case, the expense of grading is part of the cost of the hobby, just like buying card savers, display boxes, jiffy mailers, etc. I would imagine that my cost for grading fees amounts to maybe 4-5% of my total card budget, which works just fine for me.

I should also note that a big chunk of my collection remains raw, but the majority of them are postwar cards that are irrelevant to the discussion on this board. Most everything I own prior to 1950 is in a slab.

-Al

[Archive]

Posted By: Seth B.

Aesthetic value is a big plus: if it's going to be in some sort of holder, it might as well be in a consistent, high-quality holder with a label on the top (usually accurate, ahem). Those companies that use a holder with the black insert I find really distinguishes a card. Also, this makes for easy storage for me. They stack and are of a consistent size (I know toploaders are also of a consistent size, but they slide around a little more in my shoebox than stackable graded cards). But for a $100+ card, the $8-10 is worth it to me just for the aesthetics.

[Archive]

Posted By: steve f

I got all my stuff graded because I deathly fear passing down a fake or otherwise reject card as part of the Estate (or pawning off a reprint to an unsuspecting buyer).

To answer your primary question., The favoritism that is often given to the high-volume submitters. It burns my ass to the point that I'd like to sic JB on 'em.

[Archive]

Posted By: John S

Leon,

How many vintage cards do you need to handle before you can detect fakes, trimming, and other alterations? At a point the learning curve levels. I still seek second opinions on issues that I am less familiar with, but that information comes from fellow collectors, not grading companies. Again, I have nothing against third party grading, I was responding to Jeff P and his lack of understanding of the appeal of raw cards. And as I stated in my original post, I have been sending cards to SGC to be graded for resale. I have increased the "value" of some of my cards 300% or more. It still amazes me that I can sell a T206 common graded 60 for $100 - $125. I use this money to buy more cards.

So as a response to Al's original question what don't I like about grading is that it has become a maniacal pursuit for many "collectors" and nothing more that a numbers game. At a recent card show two individuals were discussing their 1956 Topps collections...each had his average grade memorized to the hundreths position.

If you like the appearance (and I must admit the SGC holders are sharp), preserving your collection, or for resale third party grading is an excellent option. To each their own, I really don't spend much time worrying about what group I fall into, I just collect in a way that is most enjoyable to me.

[Archive]

Posted By: Dean H

I too like graded examples for the same reasons already pointed out. I'm not sure I could detect a fake on some issues. The protection and overall presentation of the card is what I like most. I try to not pay too much attention to the grade and focus on eye appeal. We all have many technically low grade examples that are stellar in the eye candy department.

Dean

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

Fair enough. I think I have handled thousands of pre-war cards at this point. My guess is maybe about 20,000. Maybe a few more maybe a few less. Even with that many I still can not always see the minute details the graders find (or overlook them). Very recently I sent in an E card that looked good to me..I looked at it under a 6x too. I sent it to SGC and it came back colored. I just missed it. So the extra sets of eyes are good for me. Also, as many Fro-Joys and '28 Ruth Candy company cards as I have handled, and it is still sometimes difficult to tell a fake. I get better at it everyday though. Maybe when I catch up with you (about 20 more years) I will feel the same way. Actually, I am pretty sure I will. Already I see some stupid mistakes being made and it bums me out.....but collecting is still a lot of fun. Another thing I don't like about grading is when one of the top companies grades an obvious fake.....kind regards

[Archive]

Posted By: John J. Grillo

I do think grading costs and resale value do cancel each other out in the long run, so a cost factor isn't a concern to me. Without going into some detailed, philosophical answer, I like card grading simply because I do.

[Archive]

Posted By: Joann

Reasons I like grading:

I do think it gives a little extra confidence for purchases such as ebay or other internet buys where I am not familiar with the seller. But that's only for sellers I don't know. I would not hesitate to buy an ungraded card from just about anyone on this board.

I think it at least takes away some of the personal feeling of differing on a grade - I've bought a few on ebay that were advertised as VG, but had writing on the back. Sigh. Not worth pursuing, and I just make a mental note about that seller.

SGC slabs can definitely add to the presentation.

Reasons I don't like grading, and generally have a preference for raw:

I do like to be able to hold the cards. When I got my first Old Judge not too long ago, I remember how surprised I was at how thick the cardboard was. Yeah, I read it was on cardboard. Thick cardboard. Totally different to hold it in your hand and actually realize it though.

Same for first time I got an E103 or E95. I would never have had any real understanding of how fragile these are if I had bought graded. Yeah, I read they are on thin paper stock. Totally different to really appreciate that by being able to handle them directly.

I like that I can see the surface directly - the colors are better, no glare, just pure and raw surface. You can't get that look through plastic. I keep mine in toploaders. Yes it is different than slabs - I can easily take them out of toploaders and put them back. Not so with slabs.

Interestingly though ... my mom had surgery Saturday. I brought my cards into the waiting area to show them to my dad and siblings - they have not seen all of them at one place. The ones I go to look at are the raw. But invariably, they all went for the graded cards, particularly the SGC and GAI black slabs. Must be something about the appearance that makes them seem more attractive, or weightier, or whatever. I don't think one person picked up one raw card, even though most of mine are not graded. Don't know why, but I found that interesting.

Joann

[Archive]

Posted By: RayB

As a middle age collector; I have kind of worked myself backward from the 60's and 50's to the prewar collector that I am now.
Grading, in general, helped revitalize my interest in the hobby.
Grading and the internet (more specifically eBay); made it possible for me to pre-war educate myself in the nuances of the issues that interested me without going through the trials of fakes and altered raw product.

Buying the card has always been my priority; raw, graded or otherwise. If the eye appeal is there; I'm interested. Authentication made it possible for me to take the plunge into new areas of interest (especially pre-war) due to my ever growing search for knowledge on the history of our game and our hobby, without fear.
Fact is; I love this hobby and it's history. The further I track it back the more intrigued and enthusiastic I become.

I would always encourage all collectors to collect what they like, and collect it the way they like it (raw or graded.)

Lastly the Registries of PSA and SGC make it especially convenient for me to view my cards from the road, warrior that I am.
RayB

[Archive]

Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Slabbed cards serve many functions, as stated above, and others unstated. In applications such as high grade, costly cards, slabbing and leaving them slabbed, seems to me to be the obvious best choice.

However, recognizing that the more times you handle your card in the raw, the greater the damage you will cause, it is desireable to me to become acquainted with my card. If you've never held an OJ in your hand and felt its heftiness, or never felt the texture of the surface of a CJ, or the smoothness, flimseyness, etc. of other cards; you have robbed yourself of both knowledge and enjoyment. And make no mistake - there are lots of surprises once you crack these out.

I don't say that you have to leave them unprotected, I don't. I assemble my cards into groups and display them as such. One example is the set of cards which represent each 20th Century member of the 500 HR Club. These cards are displayed together in a custom format very similar to a scrapbook presentation, but without the glue. As such they are sealed away as much as a slab, but without unnecessary plastic casing. For me the bulk of a slab is a negative mainly because they take up too much room to allow a scrapbook type presentation.

Now I do not contend that I trust my judgement regarding authenticity any more than the opinions satated above, and I may someday choose to seek this service if I am uncertain enuff. But one of my chief beefs with slabs is that the opinion of an independent company is offered and accepted by the hobby, as if word has come from the mountain top, when I feel different criteria should be employed in many instances, and in other cases different weighting of the criteria appears more applicable to my taste.

There is a lot more to this, but you have already given me equal time. Thanks for hearing my thoughts.

Its Only Gil

[Archive]

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

What I dislike about grading...

Collectors devolve to ignorance, collecting "PSA 6 or better" T206s, clueless about what the cards really are. In slab form, they're like a commodity, e.g. pork bellies. Slabbing has resulted in a "dumbing down" of the hobby.

I detest paying someone who knows less than I know about cards, for his opinion. I'm not getting a title opinion on a home, or a second opinion about a pending surgery. As a collector I should learn my hobby.

The slabs are bulky. Ugly. A pain to store.

The slabs are occassionally incorrectly labeled. And it seems that often when that happens, most folks (most board folks excluded) are clueless about the mistake.

I like to be able to touch a card. To hold it.

Folks have become slaves of "7" or "9". I like the idea that my E90-1s are generally more worn than my N172s or T205s, 6s, 7s, 9s, 10s, my one 11, 12s, 13s, my one 14... all because the T cards went into the hands of adults, and then might have filtered (sorry if that pun offends) down to kids. While the E cards went straight to the kids, and were packed around in pockets, were pinned to a wall, and all sorts of stuff. The wear is evidence of the appreciation of the cards of past young owners of generations past. I kinda think about collector-used cards the way I think about a game used bat. I have some new bats. And a few game used bats.

It is a rediculous cost. I can get more cards, autographs, old books, and the like, if I'm not paying for someone else's opinion. I'm content with my opinion.

I usually find that slabbing isn't necessary for my sense of wellbeing when I buy cards on eBay. I can usually tell about the genuineness of a card if the scans are good. I just try to buy from sellers with good feedback, sellers who accept returns. Once I needed a black light to discern that a Remar Bread card was fake, but it was a good fake. The seller refunded the money, and let me keep the card. I use it to "hold school" with young collectors who are trying to learn, young collectors who are learning their craft instead of relying on a "plastic 7" or a "plastic 8"!

I like to be able to look at a bunch of T206s and point out the American Beauty cards, discernable because they are slightly more slender than the regular cards. Most slab-heads can only distinguish them by reading a slab label or looking at the back.

Slab guys add and divide to find an average grade number for their collection... they aren't collecting baseball cards, they're collecting slabs!

I will conceed one good aspect of slabbing. The price realized for a slabbed card is generally higher when sold on eBay, and that is good when I'm a seller. Years ago I got about half a dozen Obaks. Then the last few years I've picked up a few more. One night I bid on a Ping Bodie PSA 1, and won it for about $16, as I recall. When I got it, I looked and saw that I already had one, from that old original purchase. My old Bodie was in much better shape. Maybe a 3 or a 4 (whooooo!!!). So I listed the PSA 1 on eBay, with a bit of a bio about who Bodie was, and the card sold for twice what I had in it. I'll attribute part of that to listing who the guy was, but most of it was because of the PSA plastic. Maybe I should start a separate thread, have you ever inadvertantly bought a card you already had??? There would likely be a dicotomy of those of us who admit it, and those who won't.

With slabbing comes the population reports. The reports are misleading. If a card gets a 9, most folks leave it alone. If a card gets a 4 and maybe should have been a 5 or 6, then it is broken out and resubmitted. So the population will have more lower numbers due to regrading. Additionally, most slabbed cards I buy are liberated. They are still in the "population" acording to PSA and others, but the card isn't in a slab any more.

Slabbing is like the 20th century version of eCards. You can't touch them... you can brag about them to others, and if they're fellow slab-heads they'll listen. But I won't.

I could go on for a while...

[Archive]

Posted By: steve yawitz

I don't know that I'm necessarily anti-grading, but I generally no longer find it worth it for my collecting style. To try to keep a long, convoluted story short, I guess I've made a few realizations over the last year.

One - and this may not pertain as much to this forum since most of us aren't collecting cards at the high end of the scale - is that the premiums paid for cards in x condition over x-1 condition are insane given the often negligible difference in actual condition between the cards. I basically reached a point where it seemed foolish to continue collecting high-grade postwar stuff.

Perhaps closer to our prewar hearts is the fact that there's much greater variability within a given grade when you're at the lower end of the scale, which is prety much what I now exclusively collect. I've bought a bunch of 3's and 4's that I have quickly resold because the image looked like dump. I suppose these cards still meet PSA's criteria for their given grades, but not my eye appeal standards. I'll take a card with nuke-yoo-ler color and dead-on registration even if it would otherwise be a 2 over many of the 4's I've handled. Like some of us said on Gilbert's thread, ultimately one has to trust his or her own eye.

Finally, I'm simply no longer as confident in graded cards as I used to be. Whether it's trimmed or altered cards slipping by, tales of people spinning the Wheel of Crack 'N' Resubmit time and time again on the same card, scandalously overgraded cards, or boneheaded label errors (which suggest the possibility of a lack of attention to detail in other aspects of the enterprise), the difference in my confidence levels between buying graded and buying raw has narrowed considerably.

On the flipside, I think some of the benefits of grading are overstated, especially the protection issue. I'm hardly the most deft person in the world, but I swear that PSA has inflicted more damage to my cards than I have over the last half dozen years. Yeah, the cards are probably safe once they're slabbed, but there's a small but real element of risk associated with submitting cards.

I'm sure I'll still buy graded cards when it comes to making major purchases, but for the great majority of my run-of-the-mill purchases, it just isn't worth paying that much of a premium. And I can't see myself submitting that many more either. Given a choice between submitting two or three cards or picking up a new T206 common, I'll now take the latter almost every time.

Oh yeah: It's not like I'm fondling my raw cards on a daily basis or anything, but there's something really cool about truly handling old cardboard. Not only that, but it's a heckuva lot easier to flip through a stack of Card Savers to view my cards than to lug around a huge box of slabs. In my more cynical moments as a graded card collector, I felt not like a cert collector but a scan collector.

[Archive]

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Amen, JohnS... Amen.

Gil, you are oh so right. Nuckleheads, listen to him. You have to hold a 1914 Cracker Jack, and hold a 1915 Cracker Jack. The difference isn't just the direction of the back.

Hold an N172 or N173.

You have to touch a T200, or T222. Fatima's are great. I have a T200 premium with Jackson standing there, the size of your finger. But you guys wouldn't want it, because it won't fit in a slab. And if it did, how many of those PSA or SGC knuckleheads could identify it???

Run your clean fingertip across the front surface of a T206 that has that nice lithographic surface.

Bust those little rascals out and enjoy them!

You tell them, Steve Y !!!

[Archive]

Posted By: ralph

Stevie Y..
Right On !

[Archive]

Posted By: Al C.risafulli

There are some great responses in this thread so far, and I love the fact that, for the most part, it's stayed respectful and on-point.

I do have to say that I resent the idea that stating a preference for graded cards makes me a slab head that collects plastic and numbers. While there most definitely are people like that, and we all know them, I would hardly say that "most" graded card collectors are like this. Most of the graded card collectors I know are quite the opposite; people who search out lower and mid-grade cards with great eye appeal, who focus on one or two key collecting interests, and who pursue their goals with the same zest as anyone else. I don't begrudge those who choose to collect the finest material, but I do struggle sometimes with people who are just seeking numbers without any passion for the cards themselves.

But I can't indict the grading industry for the fact that people like that exist; they exist in every walk of life. Certain types of people accumulate trophies, and it is what it is.

I started building a HOF type set about a year and a half ago. My goal was to collect one card of each member of the HOF, utilizing as many different card types as possible. One of the things I found was that, as the collection grew, there was no uniformity to it. Put a T205 next to a '41 Playball, next to a '36 Chicle Premium, next to an '89 Topps, next to an N28, and it's very disconcerting to look at, in my opinion. Tough to understand exactly what you're looking at.

So I chose to have them all graded, and am now amazed at how well they display. I keep them in order of their HOF induction, and I'm just so happy with it. There's a cohesiveness to it that didn't exist before they were in the slabs.

It's not that I have some super-cool, uber-valuable collection - in fact, quite the contrary. It's a nice collection with cards I love, some of which have a little value, and some of which don't. But I love them all, and would find it difficult to swallow the idea that because I prefer to have them graded and encapsulated, that somehow makes me inferior.

Anyway, I really appreciate all the opinions and would love to read some more.

-Al

Edit - this post isn't meant to slam my friends who collect high-grade stuff, either - I LOVE high-grade stuff. I'm referring more to the cert buyers than anything else and am not meaning to insult anyone.

[Archive]

Posted By: jay behrens

A big reason that many of us like to handle our cards and not have them put into an expensive plastic case is that we like to handle cards and know what a reall one should like and feel. Yo can't get this from a slabbed card. Learning what a real card looks and feels like allows you to know what to look for if someone contacts you about a collection they have. If all you have ever owned is slabbed cards, you will be a huge disadvantage as to knowing for sure whether or not those cards are real.

Jay

Growing old is not optional, growing up is.

[Archive]

Posted By: Rick

I prefer Leon's attitute about graded vs raw...

A middle ground.

There is good stuff and some bad stuff.

I now collect my own made up set...but before that i tried a few PSA sets on the registry ...and it was fun!

Call it whatever you will but it was a great feeling to see my set move up ..or fustrating to see it go down.

There was a pride that comes with your set, not to be the top set , but to stick to your goals , to see that set improve, the really nice and helpful people you met who share your passion for the set etc.

Specialy among the people who collect player sets ...

And besides you can always brake the slab and take the card out ...I dont consider the slabs as prisons ..more like a house...you can change it, upgrade it ...depending on your tastes.

One thing i do not like is people not sending their slabs back to the company ..its just a nice thing to do.

[Archive]

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

I, an avowed raw-head, appologize to any offended slab-heads. And by slab-head I speak of those that only collect slab of a certain number or higher, folks who have never felt a real card, and by touch couldn't distinguish a reprint from a genuine card. Some folks with slabbed cards wouldn't be slab-heads.

And I echo that this has proven an interesting thread.

[Archive]

Posted By: Rick

It has been a really nice, mild thread...I think the board is losing it!!

Jay should snap at someone

j/k

[Archive]

Posted By: jay behrens

How about if I just crackle? Popping someone wouldn't be good.

Jay

Growing old is not optional, growing up is.

[Archive]

Posted By: Gilbert Maines

All of this "Collect What You Wanna Collect" talk makes me sick.
Because that is what I wanna do.
Without value judgements, snobbery, or any other crap.
And I certainly don't want any independent grader telling me that a pinhole is more or less severe than a William Orsatti autograph on the card front, paperloss is better or worse than clipped corners, etc. Keep your opinions to yourself and don't poison everyone's minds with your sensless criteria.
When I first tried to understand grading, it took me a long time to be able to notice differences in centering (which now are obvious). This tells me that the importance of many factors in the grading schemes employed are learned, not readilly apparent.

I have a bunch of OJs grouped together in a multi-pocket binder page. One has pinholes in each rounded corner, and the top and bottom center. Another is trimmed, skinned and nearly torn in half - but has a tremendous image. Others have minor front paperloss, creasing, etc. One is a very light image card which would likely grade a PSA4.

When my daughter who had no experience with these cards first viewed the page, the card which she felt was worst was the faded PSA4 candidate. I told her:"But Cheryl, look at the corners". She was not impressed.

To my taste, people with this level of experience are the best graders, because their views have not become jaded by the experts in this field.

We spoke for a while about grading, She was very tolerant of wear issues, even paperloss. She finds staining somewhat repulsive, but still a natural damage. Unacceptable to her preferences are deliberate defacing of the card by trimming, writing, gluing, etc. Image fading was thought of much like staining.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

The authenticating that grading services provide is a tremendous help for collectors and whether or not you like slabs I think we all agree that nobody wants to get stuck with a counterfeit or altered card. However, I think the grading component really isn't as useful as some may think. It's too subjective, there are undeniable differences in how each service grades, cards can be submitted again and again until a higher grade is attained; and there are many other tricks that submitters have learned that circumvent the system. I think that collectors should learn to grade their own cards, something that we all used to do and is really a part of the learning curve. It's not that hard and with a little experience any collector can learn to grade pretty accurately. I'm all for having a third party cull out a trimmed card, less enthusiastic about the assigned grades.

[Archive]

Posted By: B Kasel

It's somewhat ignorant to assume that just becuase someone prefers graded cards means that they have never handled them. At least half of my purchases are raw, typically from trusted collectors on BST. Buying raw initially gave me the ability to learn how to spot a fake, trim, colored, etc. It also gave me a sense of the variations in color, texture, thickness etc across the different series. Later on after I've accumulated 10 - 15 cards I send them in for grading. The numerical grade while somewhat important doesn't have any influence on my decision to send something in.

IMO neither side is in the right or wrong. One isn't better than the other. It comes down to personal preferences. We should be judged on the content of our collection not on the color of our slabs!

Bill

My personal collection - http://s47.photobucket.com/albums/f176/fkm_bky/

[Archive]

Posted By: Al C.risafulli

That's another good point, Bill. I would say that more than half the cards I buy are raw; I submit them myself. While there are a handful card types in my collection that I've never held raw in my hand, I don't get as fired up as some of you guys about holding the card raw in my hand. For me, it's the artwork, the story the card tells, the info/stats/ad on the back and that sort of thing that's important to me.

Buying raw cards over the net, IMO, is a crapshoot, though. If I'm looking for something where condition is a factor for me, the slab gives me the added measure of security - if I buy an SGC 88, I can be reasonably confident in what I'm getting. There are mistakes, sure, but I've found them to be the exception and not the rule.

-Al

[Archive]

Posted By: John Harrell

I don't collect slabbed cards because the standards used don't, in my opinion, fit with grading standards used by all collectors prior to the slabbing business. A VG card is allowed to have a minor crease or wrinkle. I don't see why I should pay more for a VG card just because somebody in a grading company arbitrarily decides that VG cards are no longer allowed to have a crease or that an EX card can't have an imperceptible wrinkle. The slabbing artificially increases prices which makes it harder for a "collector grade" person like me to finish sets. I have no special preference for raw cards, based on nostalgia. I'd like to collect NM sets but can't afford them and with slabbing, raw cards become harder to find. I just don't like paying artificial prices for cards whose value is inflated by someone else's arbitrary standards.

John