Tim Kurkjian and the greatest SS's

[ksabet]

I was listening to ESPN a couple of days ago and Tim Kurkjian was speaking on where Derek Jeter placed in the discussion of greatest SS's. His list was:

Wagner
Vaughan
Jeter
Ripken
Smith

I think he had Larkin in the discussion as well. Said Jeter would be considered as high as 2 and no lower than 6.

Just curious what others thoughts were on this position in history?

[oldjudge]

I think he is three, behind Wagner and Ripken. Ozzie Smith shouldn't be on the list (no matter how long the list is).

[Econteachert205]

Some old timers swear by Marty Marion as a top 5

[yanksfan09]

I'm a Yanks fan but I'd rate him 2nd. Maybe Ripken's time at 3b might hurt him a bit and lower average. Obviously he had more pop and the streak. I'd give Jeter the edge over Ripken by a little.

[howard38]

Kurkjian is either discounting A-Rod because of his time at 3B or because of the PEDs but he played more than half his career games at SS so I would put him at #2 behind Wagner w/Ripken third. After that it's apples and oranges w/several players including Jeter that could be considered for the fourth spot. Vaughan, Larkin, Appling Boudreau, Yount, Dahlen, Ozzie, George Davis and probably a few others are pretty close in value. Personally I would put Davis and Vaughan in a tie for fourth and fifth.

[ErikV]

Funny, I was talking to brother about this same topic a couple of days ago.
We never did come up with a consensus. I suppose it could be argued that any
name on the list you/Kurkjian provided could be considered the best SS ever.

I personally think while Ripken's consecutive game streak is impressive, his
.276 career batting average and 36 career stolen bases quickly disqualifies
him as being the best SS. The same holds true of Ozzie Smith's career 28
home runs and .262 batting average.

It's a bit unfair to try and compare players whom I've never seen play (ie
Wagner, Waner), so if I had to choose, I'd go with Jeter. For the last 20
seasons Derek Jeter had been the glue to hold the Yankees together. I don't
think we'll see the likes of another Jeter type for many years to come.

Just my humble opinion,

ErikV

[BengoughingForAwhile]

Best shortstop of all time, 7 time all star, 2 time NL MVP... Ernie Banks.

[Bugsy]

Ernie Banks needs to be on the list. Yes, he played the second half of his career at 1st, but two MVP seasons as a shortstop...

Yount should maybe enter the conversation as well.

And Jeter should have changed positions at least a few seasons ago. He still has great hands and a good arm, but his range is horrible. He shouldn't get more consideration as a shortstop just because his ego wouldn't allow him to change positions versus a guy like Cal that took one for the team and made the switch late in his career.

1. Wagner
2. Vaughan
3. Banks
4. Ripken
5. ???

[AMBST95]

If Ripken had played his career in New York over the same time period as Jeter this wouldn't even be a debate. Cal played on a lot of bad teams in Baltimore while Jeter played on better teams. Jeter is a great player but he ranks easily behind Ripken. Cal's defensive WAR is #4 in the history of the game at 38.8. Jeter's is (-9.6). Jeter has 3400+hits while Cal ONLY had 3100, but with a lot more power.

I don't mean to discredit Jeter, he's a great player. He'll be a first ballot HOFer. He's my generation's New York legend. I'd just pick Ripken if I had to choose between the 2 when building my ball club. But it's really just a discussion over #2 because no one is supplanting Honus anytime soon. ARod could have made my top 5 if he'd had kept his nose clean, but his numbers are meaningless in my eyes at this point.

1) Wagner
2) Ripken
3) Jeter
4) Yount
5) Vaughn

[brewing]

I agree that ARod should be in discussion.

I also do not think Ripken is in the top 5.

Considering SS is one of the most important defensive positions, I think should hold immense weight when discussing greatest SS's.

Jeter is a slight notch above Smith, Trammell and then Larkin. If numbers don't lie, then look them up. The defensive ones too.

[clydepepper]

Seeing that Shortstop is considered a premium defensive position, if A-Rod is included in the discussion, then so should Vizquel, Aparicio, and Maranville.

I would hesitate placing Jeter above Ripken

Arky Vaughan may be the one of the best under-the-radar position players ever.

[ksabet]

It's funny because we romanticize old legendary players it's sometimes hard to figure out where they truly stand in history.

Wagner is almost unanimously considered the greatest shortstop and against his contemporaries (which IMO is how it SHOULD be judged) there is no doubt. But was he really better than Ripken or Jeter if you put him on today's field?

It's something we will never know but I i have always been curious how Ruth or Foxx or Mathewson would have fared against modern players.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by ksabet

It's funny because we romanticize old legendary players it's sometimes hard to figure out where they truly stand in history.

Wagner is almost unanimously considered the greatest shortstop and against his contemporaries (which IMO is how it SHOULD be judged) there is no doubt. But was he really better than Ripken or Jeter if you put him on today's field?

It's something we will never know but I i have always been curious how Ruth or Foxx or Mathewson would have fared against modern players.

This is why comparing greats across generations is so very difficult. To be accurate, you can only rank them within their own time. Babe Ruth would have had to be in better shape to be productive, Walter Johnson may have only been 'moderately fast' by today's standards. On the other hand, what if the old-timers had had all of the training and nutritional advantages that today's stars have....you could go back and forth forever about this...and I believe we will...part of the allure of the history of the game. '...a haunted game in which every players is compared to the ghosts of all those who came before.'

[z28jd]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

This is why comparing greats across generations is so very difficult. To be accurate, you can only rank them within their own time. Babe Ruth would have had to be in better shape to be productive, Walter Johnson may have only been 'moderately fast' by today's standards. On the other hand, what if the old-timers had had all of the training and nutritional advantages that today's stars have....you could go back and forth forever about this...and I believe we will...part of the allure of the history of the game. '...a haunted game in which every players is compared to the ghosts of all those who came before.'

That's why I hate when people bring up the past players talking about how they would do now, but not vice versa. Do you think any of these pampered stars would last a season riding trains, working an off-season job, playing with a scuffed up ball that gets thrown at their helmetless head if they crowd the plate, and using chewing tobacco spit as a form of healing a spike wound? 90% of them wouldn't last half a season playing in those old wool unis, always day games and exhibition games scheduled for off-days. Most of them would be a crying mess after the first week, calling their moms like a fat kid at summer camp. And people now think these guys are the better players, ha!

There isn't a shortstop that's played this game that should be mentioned in the same breath as Honus Wagner and I'm a Pirates fan that thinks Arky Vaughan was the second best shortstop of all-time. He's no Wagner though, not close.

[stlcardsfan]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

Seeing that Shortstop is considered a premium defensive position, if A-Rod is included in the discussion, then so should Vizquel, Aparicio, and Maranville.

I would hesitate placing Jeter above Ripken

Arky Vaughan may be the one of the best under-the-radar position players ever.

+1. Ozzie Smith saved 100+ runs per year in his prime. According to Whitey Herzog, not me. Probably also true about Vizquel. Most of this discussion is centered on offensive production. You guys are missing the boat.

[SmokyBurgess]

Never saw them of course, but must have been a pretty good shortstop in the Negro Leagues.

[mrvster]

Totally agree....

Wagner, Ripken, Jeter

[Jay Wolt]

Originally Posted by SmokyBurgess

Never saw them of course, but must have been a pretty good shortstop in the Negro Leagues.

Pop Lloyd is probably the top man on the list

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by stlcardsfan

+1. Ozzie Smith saved 100+ runs per year in his prime. According to Whitey Herzog, not me. Probably also true about Vizquel. Most of this discussion is centered on offensive production. You guys are missing the boat.

A run per game saved is just a stupid exaggeration. Nobody cones even close to doing that - the opportunities simply don't come up that often.

[Tabe]

Arod is #2, at the VERY least. 40/40, batting title, three 40 homer seasons, and Gold Glove-level defense - all before leaving Seattle. Whatever came later, at their very best, Ripken, Jeter, et al, simply couldn't touch the player Arod was in Seattle.

[stlcardsfan]

Originally Posted by Tabe

A run per game saved is just a stupid exaggeration. Nobody cones even close to doing that - the opportunities simply don't come up that often.

SS robs a basehit up the middle. Next guy up hits a home run (or even a double). One run saved.

Enough about Arod. On the juice since day 1.

[SteveMitchell]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

Seeing that Shortstop is considered a premium defensive position, if A-Rod is included in the discussion, then so should Vizquel, Aparicio, and Maranville.

I would hesitate placing Jeter above Ripken

Arky Vaughan may be the one of the best under-the-radar position players ever.

[emphasis added]

That Tim Kurkjian included Vaughan so high was, frankly, suprising - pleasingly so. And Raymond's comment is spot-on, in my view. It's amazing to me that Arky was ignored so long by the Baseball Writers (who had years to honor him but did not) but, belatedly, was selected by the much reviled Committee on Veterans.

I like:

1. Wagner
2. Vaughan
3. Banks
4. Ripken
5. Vizquel
6. Smith
7. Yount
8. Jeter
9. Larkin
10. Trammell

[Peter_Spaeth]

Wagner, Banks, Jeter, Ripken, Yount, Vaughan

Could be biased, I love Jeter and always thought Ripken was overrated a bit due to the streak

[Marckus99]

IMO, Jeter is no where near the top 5...or 20.
He was just placed in the right situation/line-up...for,
well over 10 years.


- M.

[arexcrooke]

Originally Posted by Marckus99

IMO, Jeter is no where near the top 5...or 20.
He was just placed in the right situation/line-up...for,
well over 10 years.


- M.

Just being put in the position does not mean the production magically happens.
Jeter is an all time great and would be whether or not he played in NY or in Florida. Obviously the fact he plays in New York makes his profile larger with more people are aware of his exploits.

Yes SS is a premium defensive position. But would you rather have a player who is decent with the glove and great with the bat or great with the glove and below average with the stick? I'm taking the stick. That's why Schmidt is hands down better than Robinson
Ozzie was amazing defensively. Terrible with the bat. If pick Jeter 6 days a week and twice on Sunday.
My list for what it's worth:
1-Wagner
2-Jeter
3-Banks
4-Ripken
5-Vaughn

[Peter_Spaeth]

Ozzie had almost 2500 hits and 600 steals. A better hitter than he sometimes gets credit for, although obviously not in Jeter's class.

And I don't buy the argument that Jeter just happened to be in the right place at the right time. That could be said of almost anyone.

[KCRfan1]

Originally Posted by Marckus99

IMO, Jeter is no where near the top 5...or 20.
He was just placed in the right situation/line-up...for,
well over 10 years.


- M.

Since you are in NY, do you feel the same about Ruth and Gehrig? Mantle, Berra? Dimaggio? Whitey Ford never would have won the games he did on a different team. Bench and the Big Red Machine? Reggie Jackson, Clemente, Schmidt? I could go on. Your lineup is what it is. Just like the ballpark the player plays in. They play where they play. I would like to know your top 20 shortstops that are better that Jeter. Start naming Marckus......

[the 'stache]

Yes, Jeter was in the right place at the right time. There was no Ozzie Smith, Robin Yount, or Cal Ripken in front of him. In '95, the year before Jeter became a full-time player, the Yankees marched a 33 year old Tony Fernandez out to shortstop. Fernandez, who was an outstanding shortstop in his prime, was no longer that player. In the only season he spent with the Yankees, he hit .245 with a .688 OPS in 108 games.

But, once Jeter got the starting nod, he was good enough to hang on to the position for two decades. And this is on a team where the owner will drop $100 million on a player the way I drop my socks in the laundry. Jeter had to be doing something right to continue getting the starting nod every spring.

I'm not a huge Jeter fan. I respect how he's played the game, though, and when a player has earned the praise they are being given, I will stand up and point that out. And there's no doubt in my mind that Jeter deserves the praise he;s been given.

[KCRfan1]

Originally Posted by KCRfan1

Since you are in NY, do you feel the same about Ruth and Gehrig? Mantle, Berra? Dimaggio? Whitey Ford never would have won the games he did on a different team. Bench and the Big Red Machine? Reggie Jackson, Clemente, Schmidt? I could go on. Your lineup is what it is. Just like the ballpark the player plays in. They play where they play. I would like to know your top 20 shortstops that are better that Jeter. Start naming Marckus......

Silence Marckus? That's what we all thought.....troll.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

I think you would have to rank the players by performance in their primes. For me it would be

(1) Alex Rodriguez
(2) Honus Wagner
(3) Derek Jeter

[the 'stache]

And another awful ESPN Baseball talking head is heard from. Jeter even being considered the second best shortstop in baseball history is a complete joke.

How is Robin Yount not on his list? He was a shortstop for ten years, the last half of which he was the best in the game.

Jeter has played shortstop for twenty seasons. His highest WAR ratings:

1999: 8.0
1998: 7.5
2009: 6.5
2006: 5.5
2001: 5.2

Yount's highest WAR ratings while a shortstop:

1982: 10.5
1983: 7.3
1980: 7.1
1984: 5.9
1978: 5.0
1981: 4.9 * (projects to between a 7.2 and a 7.5 without the strike)

1981 was the strike-shortened season. There were only 109 games played, of which Yount played in 96. 53 games were lost that season, which is almost exactly 1/3 of a whole season. Yount's 4.9 WAR was achieved in 96 games. Give him another 45 games or more, and he's anywhere between a 7.2 and a 7.5.

In his twenty seasons at shortstop, Jeter managed two seasons with a 7 + WAR. Yount managed three playing half as many seasons at short, and clearly would have had a fourth in 1981 if not for the strike that season. And, that's with him playing his first season, 1974, as an 18 year old. Jeter was 21 his first full season.

Yount defensively blows Jeter out of the water. How Jeter managed to get 5 Gold Glove Awards is a mystery on par with Jimmy Hoffa's disappearance.

Jeter's dWAR in 20 seasons as a shortstop is a -9.5.
Yount's dWAR in 10 seasons as a shortstop is a 12.5.

Yet Jeter has 5 Gold Gloves, and Yount got one.

Sure...right.

[abothebear]

I agree, as much as I admire Jeter, a strong case can be made that he isn't even a top 10 SS.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by abothebear

I agree, as much as I admire Jeter, a strong case can be made that he isn't even a top 10 SS.

Yup.

I looked more at their defensive ratings. I'm still trying to figure out how Jeter, not Yount, has 5 Gold Gloves.

RF/9 (range factor per 9 innings):
Jeter career 4.06
Yount career 5.13

Career double plays:
Jeter 1,400 in 2,636 games (.531/game)
Yount 941 in 1,479 games (.636/game)

Rtz -- Total Zone Fielding Runs Above Avg
The number of runs above or below average the player was worth based on fielding plays made.

Jeter career -152
Yount 18

[glynparson]

Wagner
Banks
Ripken
Jeter
Yount

[brewing]

That's all good Bill. I draw issue with any prestatement about Yount starting young and not spending much time in minors. So what! It's irrelevant to the player or his career. Cough cough Kaline Winfield.

Yount was a great SS and player, the fact he started young shouldn't be used to strengthen an argument for him. I actually think it can be used against him because without those early years he may not have reached 3000 hits. A number late starters like E. Martinez and Ichiro fall short of.

For the record, I think Yount belongs in the top 10.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by brewing

That's all good Bill. I draw issue with any prestatement about Yount starting young and not spending much time in minors. So what! It's irrelevant to the player or his career. Cough cough Kaline Winfield.

Yount was a great SS and player, the fact he started young shouldn't be used to strengthen an argument for him. I actually think it can be used against him because without those early years he may not have reached 3000 hits. A number late starters like E. Martinez and Ichiro fall short of.

For the record, I think Yount belongs in the top 10.

That's fair, too. I realize that his career numbers aren't as good if he doesn't play those earlier years. I'm just merely pointing out that he was a much better hitter once he reached the age that most baseball players hit the Majors. He learned on the fly. So did Kaline

[clydepepper]

Bill- you are a true fan, no doubt about it.

I just took a look at Yount's BBR player page with the goal of reminding all of the split in games played at each position (1479 @ short & 1218 @ OF), but I came away having been reminded that he won MVPs at both positions, and, while he only won gold gloves at SS, I remember him as a very, very good centerfielder, another premium defensive position. His stat lines remained solid throughout his career. All that does add up to him being a Great player.

When I attended the 1999 HOF Induction Ceremonies, he appeared to be a footnote - everyone else seem to have bigger fan support, even Cepeda.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

Bill- you are a true fan, no doubt about it.

I just took a look at Yount's BBR player page with the goal of reminding all of the split in games played at each position (1479 @ short & 1218 @ OF), but I came away having been reminded that he won MVPs at both positions, and, while he only won gold gloves at SS, I remember him as a very, very good centerfielder, another premium defensive position. His stat lines remained solid throughout his career. All that does add up to him being a Great player.

When I attended the 1999 HOF Induction Ceremonies, he appeared to be a footnote - everyone else seem to have bigger fan support, even Cepeda.

Thanks, Raymond. I think Yount's hallmark was probably his consistency. He had the one transcendent season in 1982, and a bunch of great years: 1980, 1983, 1984, 1987, 1988 and 1989. The thing that hurt him was that shoulder injury in 1985. It completely changed Robin Yount as a hitter. He wasn't able to turn on inside pitches with power the way he used to. He was able to adjust his approach at the plate, and started hitting with power to the opposite field.

It's odd that you didn't feel more of a Brewer fan presence when Yount was inducted. I know a few Brewer fans that went to the ceremony, and they felt the Cheesehead turnout was quite good. That was a great class, though, wasn't it? Ryan, Brett, Yount and Cepeda. One of my favorites, in fact.

Yount was a really good defensive center fielder, underrated, even. I think that when it came to people appreciating Yount nationally, he didn't get the credit he deserved. I think that's part of the reason why I'm such huge fans of Yount and Clemente both. They both played in smaller markets, and their talents were underappreciated when they played. Remember, Yount was only an All Star 3 times, and never as an outfielder. He wasn't even an All Star the year he won his second MVP, which is really odd.

Yount made a lot of great plays with his glove in center. Here's one of my favorites. This is Robin Yount laying out to make the final out of Juan Nieves' no hitter.

Yount goes horizontal to preserve Nieves no no.

The comment has been made that Yount wasn't on the level of a Cobb, or a Musial. That's fine by me. There have been very few players that have ever played the game at that level. I think Yount would have come a lot closer if he hadn't messed up his shoulder in his prime. He was 29 when that injury happened, and it basically closed off a good third of the field to him. He could hit the occasional single, but he couldn't pull the ball to left field with power anymore, and that sapped some of his extra base hit ability. That he was able to adjust his game, become a really good player again, and win an MVP in the process says a lot about how great he was.

[ksabet]

Considering it the crux of the debate I thought it would be appropriate to mention Jeter passed Wagner in hits last night.

[BicycleSpokes]

Always found Ripkens streak overated. No big deal to take a day off and have another pro cover for you.

[brewing]

Isn't Jeter's foreskin used as the tarp of the new Yankee stadium? That has to make him the greatest. Plus Tim McCarver thinks he's the greatest.

[brewing]

Greatest hitters or players past 30 years? Randy Johnson, Martinez, Maddux, Rivera........