Knute Rockne's playing days

[TanksAndSpartans]

One of the 35 Chicle cards I always kind of thought of as "out of place" was the Rockne, but I'm reading "Football's Rag Days" and it mentioned he played end for the Massillon Tigers from 1915 to 1917 (they even tied Canton for the title in 15). This ties Rockne back to the very early days of pro football which I think is pretty cool. The interview was with Jack Cusack who I had never heard of. Cusack had a pretty incredible memory as his chapter is filled with lots of specifics. He was a friend of Jim Thorpe and gives a nice account of Thorpe's time with the Canton Bulldogs.

One point that was made was that Rockne played under his own name. But I was wondering, since I think he took the ND job in 18, could he have continued to play any additional pro football? I assume ND wouldn't have liked it, so possibly under an assumed name?

[jefferyepayne]

Hi John,

It's possible Rockne played later under an assumed name later on. Many players did that in the early days of pro football ... particularly if they were either college players or college coaches.

Jack Cusak was more than Thorpe's friend. He was the Manager of the Canton Bulldogs and orchestrated the signing of Thorpe in 1915. He wrote a small book/pamphlet on his time at Canton that a lot of the more recent articles / books are based on. I have a copy and it documents his years at Canton.



jeff

[TanksAndSpartans]

Thanks Jeff - I was counting on you to tie my post to something hobby related. Is the image you posted the cover of Cusack's pamphlet? In theory, there may be a Massillon program listing Rockne as a player - have you ever seen such an item? It would be an interesting challenge to dig up if Rockne ever played while he was ND coach. I think it was Greasy Neale who came out and said - yeah I played as "Foster" or something like that.

[jefferyepayne]

No, his pamphlet cover is nondescript. The picture I posted is a composite piece from the 1916 season comprised of individual photos of team players. Here is one of my favorites



jeff

[TanksAndSpartans]

Very nice piece - coming up on 100th anniversary.

[TanksAndSpartans]

I may have to talk to Bob about a commission as I continue to advertise GridIron Greats This is my last post for the Winter 2015 issue. It includes an article by Jeff entitled "1916 Canton Bulldogs: A Push For A Championship - Part I". And I knew the visuals in the article looked familiar, so I had to dig up this thread.

Jeff, on the PSA set registry, in the write-up for my 35 Rockne, I mention that Rockne played on the 1915 Massillon Tigers Championship Team. Now when I look back at my original post, I mention a tie, so I guess the Tigers never won an outright title with Rockne, so maybe I was liberal in giving him credit for that one. What do you think? Naming a champion is always somewhat subjective in the pre-league days and without a playoff, I guess it didn't really get cleaned up until 32. Great article - looking forward to Part II.

[jefferyepayne]

Glad you liked it, John! As I mention in the article, the "champs" in the Ohio League were always based on public opinion which means sometimes there was no clear cut champ. In particular, the Youngstown Patricians are often cited as the champs in 1915 because they had the best record of the Ohio teams that were considered at the highest level of play. However, the Patricians did not play either Massillon or Canton that year! Massillon and Canton split their two games and also each lost to another team.

Patricians 8 - 0 - 1
Canton 5 - 2
Massillon 5 - 2

public opinion was split between these three teams. Fans of the Patricians argued that they were undefeated and beat the Washington Vigilantes who were often considered a top notch non-Ohio team. Canton won the last game against Massillon and when teams split, it was generally thought that the team who won the second game won the season series. HOWEVER, the Canton win in that second game was highly controversial. That is a whole other story.

jeff

[revmoran]

Another good book on this is The Sunday Game by Keith McClellan - he says Rockne played pro ball for the Akron Indians in 1914, the Massillon Tigers 1915-1917, and the Fort Wayne Friars 1916-1917. Rockne's favorable view of pro football made him an outcast when he coached Notre Dame, which combined with anti-Catholic bias, kept them off the schedule of many other schools and forced them to travel great distances to find opponents. Likewise West Point was outcast because some of their players had already completed four years of football at other colleges before going to West Point. These two outcasts joined forces for one of the most popular of all college rivalries.

[TanksAndSpartans]

Thanks Jeff - wow the Youngstown Patricians - there's a team I really wouldn't have known was in the mix with the two power houses.

Mike, thanks for the great info, another book to add to my reading list.

Jeff, the photos on the cover of the pamphlet... those look an awful lot like football cards - in fact I've seen that same design before (58 Topps comes to mind), but their not stuck to the pamphlet cover, right?

[jefferyepayne]

Originally Posted by DezHood

Jeff, the photos on the cover of the pamphlet... those look an awful lot like football cards - in fact I've seen that same design before (58 Topps comes to mind), but their not stuck to the pamphlet cover, right?

It's not a pamphlet, John. It's a composite piece put together to commemorate the Bulldogs in 1916. Those are original photos attached to the composite. if you look at the Thorpe you will see the raised edge along the left side.

I was kidding around with another collector after I bought this piece that I should cut it up and make a 1916 Canton Bulldogs card set for the registry when it struck me that doing an article that included info on each of the players and cropping out their individual "cards" to show would be really cool. That's how I started working on the article that's in GG now.

jeff

[TanksAndSpartans]

Thanks Jeff - I get it now.

[TanksAndSpartans]

Jeff, nice job finishing up part II of the 16 Bulldogs article - my favorite part was when you documented Thorpe's 71 yd punt return TD.

On a related note, the new GG has more articles then I ever remember - good to see it going strong as I've noticed Coffin Corner has been a little light recently. Are you expected to churn out an article ever issue since you're a contributor?

[Duluth Eskimo]

That composite is incredible

[jefferyepayne]

Thanks guys and glad you liked the article. It was fun to put together.

I'm not committing to writing an article each issue but want to continue to contribute as I can. Gridiron Greats is an excellent magazine and its fun to write stuff up for it.

jeff