NonSports Forum

Net54baseball.com
Welcome to Net54baseball.com. These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. There is a separate section for Buying, Selling and Trading - the B/S/T area!! If you write anything concerning a person or company your full name needs to be in your post or obtainable from it. . Contact the moderator at leon@net54baseball.com should you have any questions or concerns. When you click on links to eBay on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network. Enjoy!
Net54baseball.com
Net54baseball.com
ebay GSB
T206s on eBay
Babe Ruth Cards on eBay
t206 Ty Cobb on eBay
Ty Cobb Cards on eBay
Lou Gehrig Cards on eBay
Baseball T201-T217 on eBay
Baseball E90-E107 on eBay
T205 Cards on eBay
Baseball Postcards on eBay
Goudey Cards on eBay
Baseball Memorabilia on eBay
Baseball Exhibit Cards on eBay
Baseball Strip Cards on eBay
Baseball Baking Cards on eBay
Sporting News Cards on eBay
Play Ball Cards on eBay
Joe DiMaggio Cards on eBay
Mickey Mantle Cards on eBay
Bowman 1951-1955 on eBay
Football Cards on eBay

Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Main Forum - WWII & Older Baseball Cards > Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 06-18-2019, 02:54 PM
samosa4u's Avatar
samosa4u samosa4u is offline
Ran-jodh Dh.ill0n
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,254
Default Measuring Slabbed Cards

How do you guys measure slabbed cards? It's a very difficult thing to do.

I know there are quite a few smart folks on this forum and many of you have a solid background in science. I wanted to ask you guys this: would it be possible to create some kind of device, such as a laser gun, which can get a hundred percent accurate measurement of a card inside a slab? I'm asking this because with the recent scandal, I feel like I have to start measuring all the graded cards I get and this is not an easy thing to do. I need some kind of device that can get an accurate measurement of the card, so I know it's not trimmed.

Thanks
__________________
Successful transactions on Net54: Peter_Spaeth, rustywilly, esehombre, scooter729, NiceDocter, Mishu2nite, wolf441, jdeptula, mckinneyj and more!
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 06-18-2019, 03:52 PM
x2drich2000 x2drich2000 is offline
(DJ) Rich.ard.s
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 2,196
Default

Quite easy. Scan it, then use software to measure the card in pixels both horizontally and vertically. From there you can get the ratio of height to width and compare to the ratio of known good cards. Unless of course the card has been pressed first, then the card could still be trimmed and measure right. Or the card could have been oversized to begin with, at which point it could still measure right and be trimmed.
__________________
Current Wantlist:
E92 Nadja - Bescher, Bridwell, Cobb, Donovan, Doolan, Doyle (with bat), Lobert, Mathewson, Miller (fielding), Tinker, Wagner (throwing), Zimmerman
E/T Young Backrun - Need E90-1, T216 (all versions)
E92 Red Crofts - Anyone especially Barry, Shean, and Evers
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 06-18-2019, 08:17 PM
steve B steve B is offline
Steve Birmingham
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: eastern Mass.
Posts: 8,083
Default

I've never been able to do the pixel measuring thing, but it can be very accurate. And most scanners let you choose the accuracy to a point.

If I was going to measure a graded card, I'd put a machinists rule behind the card, make sure I had a sightline parallel to one edge (Not so easy, I can do it, but I'm used to stuff like that) Move the rule so the edge is on one number, then look parallel to the opposite edge and that number will be the measurement. (Or , that number less the number from the other side, it's good practice to start at one and measure from there.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 06-24-2019, 07:53 AM
darwinbulldog's Avatar
darwinbulldog darwinbulldog is offline
Glenn
Glen.n Sch.ey-d
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: South Florida
Posts: 3,231
Default

Let me preface this by saying that this is outside of my area (so to speak), but as far as I know...

Then you're only measuring the height and width of the card. In some cases they're pressed and trimmed so the area ends up back where it started, but the total volume and mass of the card have decreased. That's harder to detect. It's not that there aren't ways that such slight changes can be detected (If you want to get fancy you could put the card in a chamber with a known amount of an inert gas and then measure the pressure inside the chamber to calculate the volume of the card) but that the normal variance in sizes of vintage cards is large relative to the amount of matter discarded in a slight trim/press, so even if you knew the mass of the card to the microgram it wouldn't be definitive. Some cards might be suspiciously flat, but even the thickness of the cards will have some variance that's just due to differences in humidity, storage practices, etc. over the years.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 06-24-2019, 08:49 AM
Johnny630 Johnny630 is offline
Johnny MaZilli
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,145
Default

I never measure a card....to me it’s eye and grain/edges...if you learn the grain/edges you will be able to tell discrepancies....that’s what bothers me so much with these wrongly slabbed and graded bad leaf 48 football cards....are these graders looking at grain?? Do the newer graders they have know what it is?

Last edited by Johnny630; 06-24-2019 at 08:53 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06-24-2019, 08:54 AM
1952boyntoncollector 1952boyntoncollector is offline
ja.ke liebe.rman
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/mysetregistry/set/348387
Posts: 5,738
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny630 View Post
I never measure a card....to me it’s eye and grain/edges...if you learn the grain/edges you will be able to tell discrepancies....that’s what bothers me so much with these wrongly slabbed and graded bad leaf 48 football cards....are these graders looking at grain?? Do the newer graders they have know what it is?
sounds like a very easy method
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 06-24-2019, 10:56 AM
samosa4u's Avatar
samosa4u samosa4u is offline
Ran-jodh Dh.ill0n
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,254
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny630 View Post
I never measure a card....to me it’s eye and grain/edges...if you learn the grain/edges you will be able to tell discrepancies....that’s what bothers me so much with these wrongly slabbed and graded bad leaf 48 football cards....are these graders looking at grain?? Do the newer graders they have know what it is?
What do you mean by grain/edges? Are you aware that trimmers have found a way to give cards that natural-looking factory cut? This is the reason why so many of these cards got past the graders. Instead of measuring them, they just quickly looked at the edges and saw that everything looked OK. I think the only way to protect yourself is by measuring them.
__________________
Successful transactions on Net54: Peter_Spaeth, rustywilly, esehombre, scooter729, NiceDocter, Mishu2nite, wolf441, jdeptula, mckinneyj and more!
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 06-24-2019, 11:19 AM
Johnny630 Johnny630 is offline
Johnny MaZilli
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,145
Default

I’m not aware of that....do you know for a fact that card trimmers have found a way to mimic a natural normal factory cut?? That’s news to me ???
I don’t think this is the reason why so many trimmed cards have been slabbed by graders I think it’s because the graders slabbing so many obvious short trimmed cards suck at their job.

Last edited by Johnny630; 06-24-2019 at 11:20 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 06-24-2019, 11:31 AM
samosa4u's Avatar
samosa4u samosa4u is offline
Ran-jodh Dh.ill0n
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,254
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny630 View Post
I’m not aware of that....do you know for a fact that card trimmers have found a way to mimic a natural normal factory cut??
Yes, it's a fact. There are hundreds of examples on the Blowout Forums. Take a look at this Doak Walker rookie, for example:

__________________
Successful transactions on Net54: Peter_Spaeth, rustywilly, esehombre, scooter729, NiceDocter, Mishu2nite, wolf441, jdeptula, mckinneyj and more!
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 06-24-2019, 11:45 AM
egbeachley's Avatar
egbeachley egbeachley is offline
Eric Bea.chley
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 920
Default

How about measuring pixels between the black border on most cards. That is a standard number. Then measure pixels on the entire card including boarder. The ratio times the black border dimensions gives you the overall card measurements.

Will work for the PSA 8 Wagner too.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 06-24-2019, 11:56 AM
steve B steve B is offline
Steve Birmingham
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: eastern Mass.
Posts: 8,083
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by samosa4u View Post
What do you mean by grain/edges? Are you aware that trimmers have found a way to give cards that natural-looking factory cut? This is the reason why so many of these cards got past the graders. Instead of measuring them, they just quickly looked at the edges and saw that everything looked OK. I think the only way to protect yourself is by measuring them.
You need both measurement and a look at edge quality.

I'm not sure how I'd measure thickness while a card is in the slab. Out of a slab, a $40 digital caliper will give very accurate measurements of thickness, to check for pressing and retrimming corners, you'd want to measure the thickness somewhere in the interior of the card, and at all four corners.
Then you also have to know how thick it should be.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 06-26-2019, 02:46 PM
Leon's Avatar
Leon Leon is offline
Leon
peasant/forum owner
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: near Dallas
Posts: 34,196
Default

I don't think I have ever measured a card through a holder?
__________________
Leon Luckey
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 06-26-2019, 10:08 PM
Anish's Avatar
Anish Anish is offline
Ani.sh Kan.abar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 176
Default

I don’t see the point in measuring. There are plenty of oversized cards that are trimmed down to normal standards and plenty of undersized cards that are not altered. Even an oversized card could be recolored or pressed.

You’re just replacing one flawed evaluation with another.

What would you do with a card that measured small in the holder anyway - the seller has no responsibility to accept a return of a graded card.

I would instead consider the provenance/history of the item, who is selling it, and compare with other examples from the set.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 06-27-2019, 12:51 AM
toledo_mudhen's Avatar
toledo_mudhen toledo_mudhen is offline
Lonnie Nagel
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: St. Joe, Missouri
Posts: 1,352
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by samosa4u View Post
How do you guys measure slabbed cards? It's a very difficult thing to do.
http://www.spadixbd.com/freetools/jruler.htm
__________________
Lonnie Nagel
T206 : 169/520 : 32.25%
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 06-27-2019, 02:01 AM
swarmee's Avatar
swarmee swarmee is offline
J0hn Raff3rty
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Niceville FL
Posts: 6,902
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny630 View Post
I’m not aware of that....do you know for a fact that card trimmers have found a way to mimic a natural normal factory cut?? That’s news to me ???
Moser can also replicate a factory rough cut. Look in the Mantle thread for the 1952 Topps Look-N-See cards. Trimmed on the sides with "replaced" rough cuts.
__________________
--
PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head
PSA: Regularly Get Cheated
BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern
SGC: Closed auto authentication business
JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC
Oh, what a difference a year makes.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 06-27-2019, 07:36 AM
bbsports bbsports is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 531
Default

Through my years of experience, measuring a card is not a good indication. Many of the t206 cards for example are cut over and under sized. Most of the time it is obvious that you will see a wave in the card. Most of the time I look at the edges of the card. If you see any kind of a slight wave on the edge, it is altered. I know some people line the card up over a page of a book and can check the edge that way.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 06-27-2019, 10:46 AM
steve B steve B is offline
Steve Birmingham
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: eastern Mass.
Posts: 8,083
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbsports View Post
Through my years of experience, measuring a card is not a good indication. Many of the t206 cards for example are cut over and under sized. Most of the time it is obvious that you will see a wave in the card. Most of the time I look at the edges of the card. If you see any kind of a slight wave on the edge, it is altered. I know some people line the card up over a page of a book and can check the edge that way.
No single way can tell you if trimming has been done. While it's not all that common, it's entirely possible for a factory cut to not be straight.

Like this. Totally crooked, also entirely factory.
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Slabbed Cards pdi88 Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 11 05-04-2018 03:51 PM
Measuring cards for trimming based on good quality scans. Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 9 12-14-2004 05:28 AM
Measuring t206's Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 1 03-29-2003 08:08 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:45 AM.


ebay GSB