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  #1  
Old 11-08-2007, 07:29 PM
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Posted By: Matt

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=170166540560&ssPageName=STRK:MEBOFF:IT&ih=007

The auction listed above is for 8 slabbed cards (7 Ruths and 1 Gehrig). At least 2 of the Ruths are reprints as they are slabbed by PGC who confirmed to me today that they have never slabbed an authentic Goudey. That same seller also has a lot of 1914 and 1915 CJs which is probably of interest to many on this board. While some of the CJs are PSA slabbed, many are raw and knowing that he is passing off forged Ruths as authentic, we should at least be suspect that the unslabbed CJs are suspect as well.

I have sent the seller a few messages over the past 24 hours but no response. I would urge all to pursue cautiously.

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  #2  
Old 11-08-2007, 08:48 PM
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Posted By: Anthony

PGC even added a warning about fraudulent 1930's Goudeys on their website...



http://www.premier-grading.com/

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  #3  
Old 11-08-2007, 09:27 PM
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Posted By: ItsOnlyGil

Since they have never graded an authentic Goudey, isn't that sufficient proof to have this auction shut down?

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  #4  
Old 11-09-2007, 05:21 AM
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Posted By: Matt

Gil - if I was running the auction site, it certainly would be. Alas, ebay has it's own way of working and all I can do is supply them with information, which I did almost as soon as the auction was first listed on Tuesday. I hope they decide to shut it down before the seller accepts any of the offers that were submitted to him.

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  #5  
Old 11-09-2007, 10:27 AM
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Posted By: leon

I have reported this too....as I told Matt yesterday. I think my inside guy at Ebay is doing several folks jobs though. For the record I generally will report every one of these scams that good pointed out on the board...as well as many others I find myself. Scammers should be punished.....

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  #6  
Old 11-10-2007, 06:33 AM
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Posted By: Matt

Uh Oh....

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  #7  
Old 11-10-2007, 07:46 AM
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Posted By: JK

The seller that everyone has been accusing of being a scammer has been around buying and selling cards on ebay for years (ebay member since 2001). Ive even lost out on a few big items to this guy. Im pretty sure he is a collector and not a dealer. What makes you so sure he is intentionally trying to scam someone? He has three negs in six years and over a thousand positive feedbacks. Is it not possible that he bought the cards now stated to be fakes and listed them without any knowledge that they were fakes?

Of course, I do have a problem with him not responding to emails alerting him that they may be fake, but on the other hand, if the tables were turned, would you believe some unknown ebayer who emails you that your selling fake items when, in fact, you bought the cards thinking they were good?

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  #8  
Old 11-10-2007, 07:49 AM
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Posted By: leon

Regardless if the seller has been on ebay 100yrs, he was informed about the fakes, and did nothing about it. He should have at least done something. If I got emails about fakes I was selling I would at least look into it. Sorry, you lose on this one....imo....

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  #9  
Old 11-10-2007, 07:52 AM
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Posted By: Matt

Since he has been around that long, he must know the grading companies in question are disreputable. Even if he had never heard of them before, if he took a moment to go to their web page before he posted their items for sale, he would see in big bold font that they acknowledge Goudeys slabbed by them are reprints. On top of that he was contacted with this information. I see no defense for the seller here.

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  #10  
Old 11-10-2007, 07:56 AM
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Posted By: Anonymous

The seller has outbid me on several Cobb cards over the pass couple years

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  #11  
Old 11-10-2007, 08:04 AM
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Posted By: Mark T

He bought a few things from me in the past so i still have his info.

If he did not respond to emails about the cards then he must know something is up. If you are a good seller then you should respond to all inquiries no matter what a buyer may ask.

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  #12  
Old 11-10-2007, 08:05 AM
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Posted By: JK

Leon,

Read my post again. I never said he doesnt have an obligation to look into the cards he is selling to determine if they are fake or not. I dont know whether he did or he didnt - nor do you or anyone else for that matter.

My real problem is labeling someone a scammer - which implies intent. We just dont know that.

Believe me, Im not supporting this guy or the auction with the fakes. But I dont think its right to throw someone into the same category as those who make a living ripping people off.

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  #13  
Old 11-10-2007, 08:07 AM
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Posted By: leon

Maybe you need to read my post again.....where did I say this?

"My real problem is labeling someone a scammer - which implies intent. We just dont know that."


All I was saying is that what he did in this instance was wrong. Period. Please don't apply conjecture to what I wrote....thanks

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  #14  
Old 11-10-2007, 08:12 AM
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Posted By: Matt

I think he's referring to me calling him a scammer in another thread.
1) As a longtime collector, he knows there are reputable and unreputable grading companies.
2) He knows PGC is not a common reputable company
3) He was emailed that PGC is of the funky variety
4) PGC has never graded an authentic Goudey, by their own admission in plain sight on the ffront center of their webpage
5) He ignores the warnings and continues to sell the cards

scammer.

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  #15  
Old 11-10-2007, 08:17 AM
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Posted By: Jim VB

Matt,

The disclaimer on the PGC web site is as of April, 2006. Is it possible that they have graded some real Goudeys in the last 18 months? Should we as before we jump to conclusions?

<< IT HAS BEEN BROUGHT TO OUR ATTENTION THAT THERE ARE SOME INTERNET AUCTIONS CURRENTLY RUNNING FOR 1930's GOUDEY BASEBALL CARDS THAT ARE BEING LISTED AS ORIGINAL. ALL GOUDEY CARDS GRADED BY PGC UP TO APRIL 20, 2006 ARE GRADED REPRINTS, NOT ORIGINAL.>>



Edit- Just re-read your original post. Did you really talk to them this week? If so, case closed.

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  #16  
Old 11-10-2007, 08:18 AM
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Posted By: Mark T

Email address but i don't think i should post it here.

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  #17  
Old 11-10-2007, 08:19 AM
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Posted By: Matt

I emailed PGC exactly this question and they responded that every Goudey they have ever graded was a reprint.

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  #18  
Old 11-10-2007, 08:43 AM
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Posted By: JK

Leon,

My original post was not responsive to any of your posts. The main thrust of my original post was that we should not be labeling someone a scammer when we dont know all of the facts. Matt is correct, I was responding to his initial post and a post in another thread wherein he called him a scammer.

Matt, you've made several assumptions about this guy due to him being a long time collector. There are numerous collectors out there who are really know nothing about the hobby other than they have a fat wallet and can afford to buy cards at any price. Do a quick search of this guy with the search function above - I think this is exactly the type of collector aaron755hr is - money but no knowledge. He obviously bought those cards from ksa and psg or whatever its called, so he clearly doesnt recognize that there are only a few legit grading companies and they are not among them.

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  #19  
Old 11-10-2007, 08:48 AM
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Posted By: Matt

Josh - maybe I'm naive, but I can't accept the premise that a seller who has 800 feedback on ebay, seemingly all from pricey vintage cards, doesn't know there's a difference between PSA and PGC.

Even if he didn't know PGC was a sham, when he was alerted to that fact, he should have at least spent 30 seconds to investigate seeing as how thousands of dollars were at play.

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  #20  
Old 11-10-2007, 10:06 AM
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Posted By: Bill

I agree with JK. but the auction is over now. someone bought the cards. nothing we can do now. ppl on this forum label scammers all the time and are very opinionated. ebay has always been a "at buyers risk site" so nothing will change that.... get over it guys.

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  #21  
Old 11-10-2007, 10:27 AM
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Posted By: Matt

"ebay has always been a "at buyers risk site" so nothing will change that"

Bill - What you've just raised is a much larger issue and not the point Josh and I were debating regarding the use of the word "scammer" to describe this guy (BTW Josh, would "probable scammer" make you happy? ). Perhaps one of the lawyers here can correct me, but I believe your statement is incorrect. If a seller sells something to a buyer and misrepresents the item, the seller is responsible. We don't say the buyer should have figured it to be fake even if the seller said it was real due to "at buyer's risk." Buyer's risk is only beyond the representation of the seller.

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  #22  
Old 11-10-2007, 11:29 AM
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Posted By: JK

"Buyer's risk is only beyond the representation of the seller."

Aaron755hr did not make any representation in his listing that the cards in question were authentic. He only represents that he is selling:

1933 Goudey Lou Gehrig # 92 PGC 1 Poor

1933 Goudey Babe Ruth # 53 PGC 1 Poor

The word authentic doesnt appear anywhere. Further, the PGC labels dont even identify the slabbed card on its flip so its not like PGC labeled the things as fake and someone switched the flip to reflect that they are authentic. Frankly, I think PGC should be held accountable for throwing any old card in a slab while failing to note that they are not authentic.

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  #23  
Old 11-10-2007, 11:34 AM
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Posted By: Matt

Josh - I knew that was going to get confused in my post. I'm not saying this seller is legally responsible - I was addressing Bill's blanket statement that all the onus is on the buyer in all cases. I just think this seller is slimy.

BTW Josh, is not calling a card "1933 Goudey" a statement that it is a real 1933 Goudey? What's the law say on that as I have no idea.

edited to avoid further confusion.

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  #24  
Old 11-10-2007, 12:12 PM
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Posted By: JK

Matt,

I almost commented on your question regarding "1933 Goudey" in my prior post. I dont know the answer to be honest. I think it certainly implies its real. However, given that the seller was simply listing what is purported to be slabbed (or what he believes to be slabbed), Im not sure its necessarily a representation that its authentic so much as a representation of what he believes he is selling.

Given all the above, I still think given your emails to him that he should have looked into it a bit further than he apparently did and probably should have pulled those two cards out of the auction - at least I would have.

Josh

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  #25  
Old 11-10-2007, 04:41 PM
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Posted By: brian

"If you are a good seller then you should respond to all inquiries no matter what a buyer may ask."

not necessarily true. Personally, I don't respond to insulting questions from buyers.

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  #26  
Old 11-10-2007, 04:56 PM
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Posted By: Mark T

What do you consider an insulting question?

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  #27  
Old 11-10-2007, 05:15 PM
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Posted By: brian

"What do you consider an insulting question?"


These are real questions I have been asked recently:


Your description says this card is in mint condition, but I need it to grade a gem mint PSA-10, not a PSA-9. What is your return policy if this doesn't achieve my desired grade?. I am a dealer and need to make a profit from your card or it will be a total waste of my bid, money and time.

This card you just now listed looks too good to be real, so in my opinion it must be a fake and your just wasting your time starting the bidding at $100, but I'm willing to pay you $5 for it anyway. Take it or leave it.

I jus want you to know that if I win the card it might take a few month's to get the money to you. Is that okey? Dont let my neg feedback worry you coz all them people was lieing and tryed to rip me off.

Here is my phone number. I refuse to bid on any of your cards unless you call me in person and listen to my special offer. No collect calls please.

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  #28  
Old 11-10-2007, 06:05 PM
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Posted By: Mark T

I would call them in a New York minute!!!!

Just to see what they have to say on the phone. Thats some weird questions but i still would answer all.

Remember the guy who found the T206 Wagner in his bathroom celling, he answered all questions no matter how funny or dumb. The answers were actually amusing.

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  #29  
Old 11-10-2007, 06:08 PM
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Posted By: leon

I am just curious if you get a lot of those type questions and from what type of auctions? I am not a big time ebayer but do have over 1350 total feedback....I can't recall any (though I must have had at least 1) questions like that....I doubt the questions asked of this seller fall into the crazy category.....Like I said before if someone told me that a particular graded card wasn't good and that the grading company admitted it, I would at least look into it...but that's just me...

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  #30  
Old 11-10-2007, 06:46 PM
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Posted By: brian

Leon, they are questions about vintage sportscard auctions and every one of those individuals are on my blocked bidders list until the end of time.

also, the individual who asked the 3rd question (about a T206 PSA-7 common) became more and more frustrated when I didn't answer back regarding the idiotic $5 offer and when he discovered he was blocked, started sending obscene messages. The last message he sent was "you had better sell me that card and your a f*****g c**t for blocking me". After I reported the messages to eBay he was NARU'd

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Old 11-10-2007, 08:09 PM
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Posted By: Matthew S. Moore

This guy sounds like a nutcase to me.

Thanks for providing the outrageous-but-true examples. There just HAVE to be a few of them in every barrel, I'm afraid.

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  #32  
Old 11-13-2007, 06:18 PM
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Posted By: Matt

The buyer asked me to post this to the forum for input:

"Any advice on how best to handle this with the seller and with eBay? I received an invoice from him last Thursday but have not yet responded."

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  #33  
Old 11-14-2007, 08:07 AM
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Posted By: Matt

Nobody has any suggestions for how the guy should handle the situation? Knowing that some of the cards are fakes, he is no longer interested. How should he handle this?

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  #34  
Old 11-14-2007, 08:18 AM
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Posted By: JK



1. Inform the seller of the problem and that he understands that the seller was informed in advance of the problem with the two cards that are not authentic.

2. Offer to purchase the authentic cards at some agreed upon price or all of the cards at the sale price if the questionable cards are submitted and graded by psa/sgc.

3. If the seller doesnt agree, dont go through with the purchase, report him to ebay and be prepared for a negative.

Though frankly, I doubt ebay will do anything.

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Old 11-14-2007, 08:22 AM
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Posted By: leon

The listing was removed. Please have the buyer contact me. I think I can help on this one.....And, yes, Ebay will, and already has, done something on this one....regards

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  #36  
Old 11-14-2007, 08:27 AM
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Posted By: Matt

leon - I asked the buyer to contact you. I would say that ebay dropped the ball bigtime on this one, since the seller was ready to pay on Thursday and if ebay has "done something" they still havn't contacted him several days later. Only our forum saved the seller from getting ripped off.

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Old 11-14-2007, 08:51 AM
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Posted By: leon

I just sent you an email......but since the auction now says:

"This listing (170166540560) has been removed or is no longer available. Please make sure you entered the right item number."

And since it is this way because it was cancelled by ebay I don't think the buyer has to abide by the terms and conditions of the auction. I am not postive but it would make sense....(since the auction is now null and void)....Sorry this wasn't taken care of sooner. regards

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Old 11-14-2007, 08:57 AM
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Posted By: Matt

I agree Leon - at this point, the buyer is in the clear with ebay.

Why are you apologizing for it not getting take care of sooner? Do you work for ebay? Last I checked you were expedient in letting ebay know this was a bad listing.

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