1918 Photo with Babe Ruth & Joe Jackson OR is it NOT?

[sporteq]

Hey- Is this this the GREAT Joe Jackson? The ears look somewhat similar. We know he joined the Bethlehem Steel League.. but is it him?


Albert

[MGHPro]

I dont think its him
Matt

[glchen]

I think Rogers Hornsby and Stan Coveleskie are also supposed to be in that photo. Does anyone see where they are?

[sporteq]

Yeah, it doesn't look like Joe Jackson to me either. Rogers Hornsby maybe the 2nd guy on the right side of Ruth. Stan Coveleskie, I have no idea.

Babe Ruth looks young and fresh!

Albert

[gnaz01]

Didn't look like Shoeless to me either.

[zachclose21]

The kid next to the guy in question looks like he could be related, a son? Maybe this could help identify the guy

[bobfreedman]

I think it look exactly like Joe Jackson and I am pretty sure it is.

[Dto7]

1918 newspaper signing of Joe Jackson to Bethlehem Steel team.

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lc...4/ed-1/seq-11/

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by bobfreedman

I think it look exactly like Joe Jackson and I am pretty sure it is.

I agree

[Leon]

Hard to say but the guy in the back row, 3rd from left, looks like a young Ruth...seriously. (j/k)

I should add that after more review, it does at least look like Jackson.

[Bocabirdman]

Originally Posted by Leon

Hard to say but the guy in the back row, 3rd from left, looks like a young Ruth...seriously. (j/k)

I should add that after more review, it does at least look like Jackson.

That's William Bendix!!!!!

[sporteq]

OKay, some quick comparisons.. i think there are similarities. I don't believe it is him. I hope i'm wrong for the sake of the winning bidder.

albert

[bobfreedman]

http://www.goodwinandco.com/lotdetai...entoryid=14000 where it sold for $4500 and now it is at $2300 currently: http://www.goodwinandco.com/lotdetai...entoryid=27839

I am neither a bidder a consignor

[slidekellyslide]

For the record, I am neither bidder or consignor of this item and I didn't even know that it was up for auction or had sold previously. I just think the guy looks like Joe Jackson. However I'm not so sure I see Rogers Hornsby anywhere...Babe Ruth is kinda obvious.

[nolemmings]

Seems from the caps that this was a team photo of the Lebanon squad. As I understand it, Joe Jackson played for Wilmington in the Beth Steel Lg.

[sporteq]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Seems from the caps that this was a team photo of the Lebanon squad. As I understand it, Joe Jackson played for Wilmington in the Beth Steel Lg.

nolemmings- good observation "L" on the cap for "LEBANON."


That is NOT Shoeless Joe Jackson in that photo. That is the King of Swat!!

CASE CLOSED

[bobfreedman]

Please tell me what letter is on Ruth's hat? It is not an "L"

[sporteq]

Originally Posted by bobfreedman

Please tell me what letter is on Ruth's hat? It is not an "L"

I noticed myself.. dunno.

Albert

[irishdenny]

Is this Really True? They suited up & played for another baseball team to avoid being drafted... Why couldn't they just stay with the teams they were already signed with?

Does anyone have historical details about this subject?
I'm Very Curious...

I guess I'll go see what I can find out...

[rhettyeakley]

I don't think that is Jackson, not the best quality photo to go with which makes these types of identification very problematic. Ruth is pretty obvious in the photo, however. If Covaleski is on the team he is most likely the guy on the front row on the other side of the mascot from "Joe" (but hard to tell with the shadow across his face). That does appear to be Roger Peckinpaugh on the other side of "Joe" though. Some guys look familiar but the quality is tough to go on. Some other possibilities on this team but I can't really speak to those (Sam Jones, Steve O'Neill, etc.)

[sporteq]

Originally Posted by irishdenny

Is this Really True? They suited up & played for another baseball team to avoid being drafted... Why couldn't they just stay with the teams they were already signed with?

Does anyone have historical details about this subject?
I'm Very Curious...

I guess I'll go see what I can find out...

Makes me think, does this make them less patriotic? Ted Williams most notable suited up for war.

Albert

[spec]

Originally Posted by irishdenny

Is this Really True? They suited up & played for another baseball team to avoid being drafted... Why couldn't they just stay with the teams they were already signed with?

Does anyone have historical details about this subject?
I'm Very Curious...

I guess I'll go see what I can find out...

Technically, the ballplayers were employed by the sponsoring companies, whose employees were exempt from the draft because they were manufacturing goods considered essential to the war effort.

[pawpawdiv9]

Well, it seems Goodwin sold theirs last night 5/15/2014
and apparently mentioned JOE JACKSON & HORNSBY in it.
Sold for 3,984.12 and had 16 bids
http://goodwinandco.com/1918-Bethleh...-LOT27839.aspx

Copied text, in case link doesnt work:

Presented here is an absolutely remarkable 1918 3-1/2” x 5” black & white photo depicting the incomparable Babe Ruth, the immortal “Shoeless” Joe Jackson, legendary batsman Rogers Hornsby, and HOF hurler Stan Coveleskie posing with a group of additional Bethlehem Steel baseball players in October 1918. This incredible photograph’s roots are solely due to America’s involvement in World War I when the Charles Schwab Bethlehem Steel industrial giant started a six team league to entertain their massive employee base. Many professional baseball players were granted draft-exempt jobs with various shipyards including the distinguished Bethlehem Steel plants, and while a myriad of players spent most of their time on the plant’s assembly lines building war ships, they were also able to participate in the highly popular leagues. Due to Secretary of War Newton Baker’s renowned “work or fight” decree, professional baseball was thrown into a state of panic, with many players not risking the chance of being sent abroad to fight in Europe, but rather choosing the safe option of being highly paid for working in steel plants as well as playing baseball with their affiliated teams. The most prominent player not willing to “roll the dice” was “Shoeless” Joe Jackson, and in 1918 his season was cut considerably short when the legendary slugger’s draft status was upgraded by his Greenville, South Carolina local draft board to top eligibility “1A-status”. Fearing imminent induction into the military, he left the White Sox to work in the Bethlehem Steel Wilmington plant. Later joining Jackson were the immortal Babe Ruth and Roger’s Hornsby, with the “Sultan of Swat” enlisting in the league directly after he helped Boston best the Chicago Cubs in the 1918 World Series which, due to the war, happened to end a month early (September 11th). Although Babe Ruth only appeared in a single October game at 1st base before he went back to his home in Baltimore, MD., his brief showing with the prestigious Steel Casting Company eventually resulted in this unparalleled photo. True, Ruth and Jackson were officially listed on different clubs (e.g., Jackson with Wilmington and Ruth with Lebanon), but typical for this league were players jumping clubs on a daily basis, easily substantiating their undisputable representation on this unprecedented offering. The Cooperstown worthy black & white image depicts Babe Ruth standing in the back row 3rd from the left with “Shoeless” Joe Jackson easily identified as the front row player likewise 3rd from the left. This miraculous “Harper” photograph taken in Lebanon, Pa. reflects BOTH of these two baseball icons in a virtual “one of a kind” image, joining fellow Hall of Famers Rogers Hornsby and Stan Coveleskie. In fact, aside from this Bethlehem Steel League pose, the only other photo we have encountered depicting Ruth and Jackson portrays them examining a majestic piece of baseball lumber. The most intriguing aspect of this astonishing offering is the historical content it brings to the table, with the vague Bethlehem Steel League rarely discussed even among die-hard baseball historians. While not included in this particular photo, additional baseball legends who participated in Charles Schwab’s popular industrial league included Eddie Plank, Joe McCarthy, Dutch Leonard and “Black Sox” southpaw Lefty Williams. Regarding the aesthetics of this truly sparse offering, the central team image is absolutely superb, emanating superior contrast and crystal clear clarity. The technical issues include a series of vertical beveling lines along the bottom portion of the glossy surface, some light diagonal creases/cracks particularly near the upper and lower left quadrants, two mild horizontal creases along the back row (barely visible to the naked eye), a brown soiling “spec” near the upper right border, and a reverse side previously written “Babe Ruth” notation that has been erased. Yet, the fine perimeter including four relatively square corners and museum worthy central image are far more prevalent than the aforementioned anomalies. As is the case for any hobby rarity, the phrase “try and find another one” certainly applies here! This ultra-eclectic offering stands as the only Bethlehem Steel League photo we have ever come across portraying the unparalleled baseball stars Babe Ruth and Joe Jackson, with Rogers Hornsby and Stan Coveleskie providing fine co-star roles. After the 1918 Armistice Agreement officially ended World War I, professional baseball players returned to the Major Leagues in time to start the 1919 season, ending Major League baseball’s association with the Bethlehem Steel League. Considering this remarkable transient memento serves as a resounding reminder of a by-gone league that once boasted the iconic likes of Ruth, Jackson and Hornsby, it certainly represents one of our National Pastime’s greatest historical keepsakes and merits a final resting place in the finest vintage collection!

[nolemmings]

A blurb from the Lebanon Daily News some years back makes mention of a team photo (though not shown) but observes that the Rajah and Stan were not depicted:

Information on the team’s record or players’ statistics seems to have vanished over the years (if they ever existed), but a photo remains showing most of the team, including Ruth. Hornsby and Covaleski, however, were not in the picture.

http://www.ldnews.com/news/ci_5567855

[glchen]

BTW, this photo sold for ~3 years ago on Goodwin (and for ~$500 more) w/ what looks like the same blurb: Link

[nolemmings]

The write-up tries to explain the depiction of "Joe" playing for Lebanon:

"True, Ruth and Jackson were officially listed on different clubs (e.g., Jackson with Wilmington and Ruth with Lebanon), but typical for this league were players jumping clubs on a daily basis, easily substantiating their undisputable representation on this unprecedented offering."

First of all he offers no evidence of this. Second, he doesn't even bother to try and identify where Hornsby and Coveleskie can be seen, yet has them "providing fine co-star roles". Finally, the word usage and grammar alone as used by this writer should lead to his or her public thrashing--"crystal clear clarity"? a memento serving as a reminder? (each taken from the Department of redundancy department). Back away from the thesaurus Roget.

Oh, and his 2014 write-up about this "unprecedented offering" is belied by his own previous offering in 2011--um, you might want to look up the meaning of "unprecedented" there Hemingway.

[benchod]

Well,
I bought the photo and am very happy about it
I didn't care about the "gushy" write up
I didn't think Hornsby or Jackson were in the photo
It is a 1918 photo of a pre Yankee Ruth and a great piece of American history from WWI
The studios signature in the lower right corner clinched it for me
Todd, thanks for the link to the Lebanon newspaper article about the team

[nolemmings]

Well, Craig, since you got what you wanted, I tip my hat to you on a job well done.

[benchod]

Thanks, Todd,
I only wanted it for the unique and fascinating photo of the Babe
Since even the newspaper wasn't able to print an image of the team makes me believe there aren't that many photos out there

[bobfreedman]

Great pick up Craig, the main reason I was interested in the photograph was because it was an early Ruth photo. I still do believe that it is Joe Jackson unfortunately I have no way to prove it and I think you got a great deal

[sporteq]

Originally Posted by benchod

Thanks, Todd,
I only wanted it for the unique and fascinating photo of the Babe
Since even the newspaper wasn't able to print an image of the team makes me believe there aren't that many photos out there

Nice pick up of a early Babe Ruth. Its a interesting photograph with lots of history. Are you matting and framing this historic image?

Albert

[b.heagy]

I have an original photograph of this image that is hand inked "1918 Bethlehem Steel Base Ball Team Lebanon Plant" that does not have the players identified however I have recently come across a nearly identical image that has the players noted on the image "Lebanon Club 1918" From Left to Right Standing - Agnew, Schultz, Ruth, Stroud, Walsh, Bobbington, Clauser, Murphy, Plitt, Pratt - Nealing from Left to Right - Hale, Jones, Kelchner, Boys name not listed, Stowe, Potteiger and Trout.

[Econteachert205]

Didn't see anyone link to this sabr article yet


http://sabr.org/bioproj/topic/bethlehem-steel-league


Near th bottom are all league rosters.

Also I believe Norman plitt is back row second from right.

Also tom jones is to the left of " joe "

Also joe Schultz top row second from left

Oops didn't see above post.

[BaseballYakker]

So our Joe Jackson is actually Charles "Pop" Kelchner: http://sabr.org/content/charles-kelchner