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  #21  
Old 09-15-2014, 07:05 PM
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mcgwirecom mcgwirecom is offline
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I was just looking at the photos. The man on the left has and indentation in the outside shape of his ear. the man on the right does not.
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  #22  
Old 09-15-2014, 07:10 PM
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Lordstan Lordstan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EVAJOY91 View Post
I ask you a question: Joe jackson started the season playing ball for the chicago white sox, . After 17 games he decided to take a less paying job for the us government building battleships that he was under qualified to do so. Would you not call this military service that he was instructed to do? It certainly was not voluntary. I would call this as service for the us military during ww i! Wouldn't you?
No. I would not call that military service. Plenty of people work for companies that have government contracts. Companies like Boeing or Grumman are perfect examples. The people who are employed by these companies work for a PRIVATE company. The only relationship the individual has to the government is that the things they make are sold to it. This is not now, nor has it ever been, considered military service. Joe Jackson worked for a privately owned shipbuilder who sold their products to the US military. That's it. He was never a soldier, so has no reason to be and should not be in a soldier's uniform, especially in a formal photo like this one.
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  #23  
Old 09-15-2014, 07:21 PM
Econteachert205 Econteachert205 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcgwirecom View Post
I was just looking at the photos. The man on the left has and indentation in the outside shape of his ear. the man on the right does not.
Nice catch on the ear. Still would love to see Marlowe dissect too. I learned a ton from his previous works here.
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  #24  
Old 09-15-2014, 07:51 PM
hugginsandscott hugginsandscott is offline
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Originally Posted by Dave Grob View Post
I think you will be very hard pressed to find documentary evidence of Joe Jackson ever serving in uniform. Being ordered for induction did not equate to military service in uniform at this time. It meant, in accordance with the “work or fight policy” that Jackson was required to find employment directly related to supporting and advancing the war effort or join the uniformed ranks. “Being ordered for induction” meant that he was found physically fit and without any sort of other exemption that would have allowed him another option other than military service or, as stated above, to find employment directly related to supporting and advancing the war effort.

With respect to “being ordered to build ships”, this would not have been an order as this work was carried out in ship yards not under the control or supervision of the United States Army, and certainly not by the Camp Surgeons Office, Special Examining Board” on December 4, 1918 at Camp Meade, MD.

If you research and look at the July 1918 edition of Baseball Magazine you will find:

“Joe Jackson was the most noted player levied on by the draft during May—and, as already remarked, decided to go to a war-helping plant instead of active service”.

Or the December 1918 edition of Baseball Magazine (page 81) you will find reference to Jackson “building ships” and playing ball for the Harlan Shipbuilding Plant in Wilmington, Delaware.

I suspect that a deep dive into local contemporary newspapers would yield similar information that would flesh out the time line. Nice vintage photographic but I don’t think objective source information supports it being Joe Jackson.

Dave Grob
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One thing we cannot do is say that he is "in uniform" in this picture. He is one only a handful of the 173 people in an overcoat (while most are in full uniform). He is wearing a hat, but that could have been given to him for the purpose of the photo. We are running this photo because we believe it is "Shoeless" Joe Jackson. There is evidence to support that he toured various military operations in and around the Mid-Atlantic area following his tenure in the Bethlehem Steel League and prior to Spring Training of 1919.
The photo is certainly a type 1 period photo from Camp Meade, MD and it's dated December 4, 1918.

I would be curious if Mike Nola has any documentation showing that Jackson was back in South Carolina by early December, however I would suspect that would be very difficult to obtain. It is in our opinion that the man in the back of that photograph is Joe Jackson; hence we are offering it as such.
thanks,
Josh Wulkan
Huggins and Scott Auctions
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  #25  
Old 09-15-2014, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hugginsandscott View Post
I would be curious if Mike Nola has any documentation showing that Jackson was back in South Carolina by early December, however I would suspect that would be very difficult to obtain. It is in our opinion that the man in the back of that photograph is Joe Jackson; hence we are offering it as such.
thanks,
Josh Wulkan
Huggins and Scott Auctions
Josh - you guys should know better. In any case, the crappy scan posted by the OP is just good enough to show the distinctively different ear shape (right ear - viewer's left) - this tells us that it can't possibly be Jackson - end of story (at least it should be).

I challenge you to post a nice hi-res of the face and then I'll tell you what else is wrong with it (though once you have an ear mismatch, nothing else matters). Neither you nor the OP have any idea as to how to do this.
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File Type: jpg 0 IMG_1682 2.jpg (42.8 KB, 503 views)
File Type: jpg 0 Joe Jackson 62250.jpg (52.4 KB, 499 views)

Last edited by bmarlowe1; 09-15-2014 at 08:17 PM.
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  #26  
Old 09-15-2014, 08:27 PM
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Runscott Runscott is offline
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This method of 'proof' would get you a reprimand from a junior high school math or science teacher.

So all you have to do is go with the idea that there is evidence that Joe Jackson 'might' have been touring military installations in the Mid-Atlantic at a particular time, then locate military photos from that period and area, then find someone who resembles Jackson....and it becomes Jackson...because no one can prove that Jackson was in a different location at the time that photo was taken?

Besides failing the very general test of 'Does it even look like Jackson?', failing the more specific test of facial characteristics;e.g-chin and ear fail, you are also failing to deliver any evidence that he WAS there; instead, asking for proof that he was not?!?

Last edited by Runscott; 09-15-2014 at 08:28 PM.
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  #27  
Old 09-15-2014, 08:58 PM
Econteachert205 Econteachert205 is offline
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The ear is a smoking gun for me. Plus that jawline at the chin.

Last edited by Econteachert205; 09-15-2014 at 08:58 PM.
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  #28  
Old 09-15-2014, 09:03 PM
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Josh,
First off, I have to say that I like your auction House. Though I have never bid, I have been tempted on numerous occasions, but had to hold off due to other factors.
I am disappointed that you would take this stance. Beside the mismatched ear, The photo clearly states "Camp Surgeons Office, Special Examining Board. Why would a visiting baseball star be included in an official photo? I mean, I could see an informal group photo with a bunch of soldiers, but an official staff photo? Seems a bit far fetched to me. On top of that, he is buried in the back. If you had a star like him coming to visit your group and you wanted to take a photo, why would you hide him in the back dressed like everyone else? I think they would put him front and center to show off that the group met that star.

All that aside, the ear doesn't match. To quote myself from another thread, as it bears repeating "The one thing main point that I learned about facial recognition by watching Mark(Bmarlowe) go through his facial analysis is this. It doesn't matter how many parts of the face do match, if one, and it needs to be only one, part doesn't match, it's not the same person. The exceptions are differences that can be explained by age, illness/surgery/injury, or weight gain."
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  #29  
Old 09-15-2014, 09:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lordstan View Post
Josh,
First off, I have to say that I like your auction House. Though I have never bid, I have been tempted on numerous occasions, but had to hold off due to other factors.
I am disappointed that you would take this stance. Beside the mismatched ear, The photo clearly states "Camp Surgeons Office, Special Examining Board. Why would a visiting baseball star be included in an official photo? I mean, I could see an informal group photo with a bunch of soldiers, but an official staff photo? Seems a bit far fetched to me. On top of that, he is buried in the back. If you had a star like him coming to visit your group and you wanted to take a photo, why would you hide him in the back dressed like everyone else? I think they would put him front and center to show off that the group met that star.

All that aside, the ear doesn't match. To quote myself from another thread, as it bears repeating "The one thing main point that I learned about facial recognition by watching Mark(Bmarlowe) go through his facial analysis is this. It doesn't matter how many parts of the face do match, if one, and it needs to be only one, part doesn't match, it's not the same person. The exceptions are differences that can be explained by age, illness/surgery/injury, or weight gain."
I thought it was common knowledge that Joe Jackson had some plastic surgery done during this time period, guess he wanted to change his ears.... lol
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  #30  
Old 09-15-2014, 09:34 PM
wonkaticket wonkaticket is offline
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http://www.hugginsandscott.com/cgi-b...l?itemid=77105

Here's a nice one, yeah this is Walker as much as it Jackie Robinson, classic Huggins & Scott I don't need ask Mark if this is Moses.

http://www.hugginsandscott.com/cgi-b...l?itemid=77099

As for Jackson photo above who knows I'm with Mark not thinking it's Jackson. How about this Jackson? I thought these were fantasy items proved to be not good long ago?

Last edited by wonkaticket; 09-15-2014 at 09:42 PM.
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